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The Silmarillion Quest

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VagrantHero said:
You've packaged a lot into the premise of defiance which is not present in the text itself. What is Hope to men who have never seen the Light of the Trees, never seen aid of the Valar in years of running, whose entire history has shown that the world doesn't belong to them? How many lifetimes of Men will it take for stronger powers to intervene? Men have seen no power greater than the Shadow, but why should that rule us, for even as late as a few turns ago, we wiped out an entire band of the Enemy's servants with no casualties. Even under a fatalistic world view, even if we accept death by Morgoth as inevitable, why should that make us give up and die? It is already the Gift of Man to die, so let us live in a way we can be proud of. Let us grow mightier and mightier and add to our chronicles, spiting the Dark Lord who sought to snuffle out the Children of the Sun in our youth. And again, in regards to being Feanorian, they no longer ruled their lives and instead bound themselves up singularly in their possessiveness and spite. We've sworn no Oath, we are yet free. Your points however are well-argued, and a worthy alternative.
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Hope is everything to Men. It is in hope for a life of something better did the men run to the west, in hope of the land where Shadow may not reach us. That hope seems to fail, but it is not the only Hope Men carried with them. And if takes a thousand lifetimes of Men for this Hope to come true, what does it matter? What matters is the surety and a complete belief that our Hope is true, and that whatever will be lost to the war, whatever strength does the Enemy gather and whatever lands does the Shadow cover, all will recede like the darkness before the sun, all dark strength will be for naught, all that was lost will return in full, and all that was marred will be restored. It is with this Hope supporting them shall our people live and fight and die, and do so knowing that all their efforts were not in vain, and that any victory the Enemy gets is only temporary.

What does Defiance offer us, in place of that? An acceptance that our hopes are empty, that the Enemy's victory is inevitable, but also a promise that in his victory, we shall make him pay dearly for dashing our hopes. Oh, that would not make us give up and die, far from it. Should our people accept that promise, I do believe they could draw a lot of great strength from it, fighting on and on despite the odds. And yet, I don't think that this strength would be greater than the one we could draw from true Hope, for that strength would be based on our acceptance that we cannot win, that all the parts of the world in Shadow will stay there, that Enemy's strength is greater than those of all others and will eventually overcome us, that those words convey our situation the best:
Lay of Leithian said:
and Morgoth was a king more strong
than all the world has since in song
recorded: dark athwart the land
reached out the shadow of his hand,
at each recoil returned again;
two more were sent for one foe slain.
New hope was cowed, all rebels killed;
quenched were the fires, the songs were stilled,
tree felled, heath burned, and through the waste
marched the black host of Orcs in haste.
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In my opinion, accepting such disheartening things as truth would be a burden on all our people, and that every time they would gather the strength within them to raise in defiance despite that truth, it would take a great toll on their spirit. Because it is incredibly hard to fight on and on, time after time, if you also believe that with every your victory you merely delay the inevitable, and that there is nothing to hope for but that prolonging, and yet that there's also no other way but to fight. So I think that all strength that promise would give to our people would also drain them terribly, especially when the going gets really tough. The option says about turning our people against the shadow in their heart, but I'm afraid we will not be able to truly overcome it, for this shadow within is the same as the Shadow without, and we start with accepting that the Shadow without is the master of the world - how can we really expect to overcome it, then?

The Old Hope, in difference to that, establishes that there are powers beyond the Shadow, even if we are not, and thus we only need to believe in them to raise our hearts beyond the Shadow too. It has its own difficulties, because the greater the Enemy will seem, the harder it would be to believe that there are truly powers beyond him, but I believe that overcoming that would be easier. A belief that not all is lost is alluring to accept, often a healthier outlook then just defiance and, last but not the least, it is also the truth. Men might not now this for sure, but Eru is indeed beyond Morgoth, and I believe that the world will have its ways to convey the truth of it to those who believe.
 
I agree and there is something to think about for the future because this war will define mankind for generations to come and I would rather have us be defined by hope. Defiance looks like something humans took originally and let's remember how defying gods ended for Númenóreans.
 
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The Great Fear came about because our people lost hope in the Old Hope that you propose. And defiance needn't be abandoning Eru or even the grim view you took on death. Death is a Gift that only Man have, to leave behind Arda Marred.

And all lives are a struggle, a constant uphill battle, a sisyphian task, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth fighting. Without it we couldn't grow mightier, stronger and wiser.

And to quote @Telamon a few pages behind
Telamon said:
The Old Hope, that the Enemy may be defeated and death overthrown, is still known to some few among the Wise. They may be questioned on it, but your people know of the Old Hope — they just no longer believe in it, seeing as they do the seeming insurmountability of the Enemy. You may exhort them to return to it, but who knows if this will work?
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So this write-in choice might actually have a higher DC, because this wasn't enough not to gain us the trait, so perhaps reigniting it might be much harder than the other three options. Which makes sense since our people know that it wasn't enough, that the truth is there isn't a better place, nor an end to their fight.

Or it could be that it only works for a certain amount of time and needs to be constantly bolstered, since it failed once before and would be strange if it would suddenly never do so again.


EVA-Saiyajin said:
Who?
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I think he meant Numenor. I too might have written it badly.
 
Appirinia said:
So this write-in choice might actually have a higher DC, because this wasn't enough not to gain us the trait, so perhaps reigniting it might be much harder than the other three options. Which makes sense since our people know that it wasn't enough, that the truth is there isn't a better place, nor an end to their fight.

Or it could be that it only works for a certain amount of time and needs to be constantly bolstered, since it failed once before and would be strange if it would suddenly never do so again.
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Or it actually needs to be presented better, for example we ran from the great enemy to find the better place, now we found that place but enemy followed us there so let's us take our swords and fight for better tomorrow, defend our homes create our own paradise.

People may let their faith waver, but once it is reignited it will burn even stronger.
 
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Star said:
Or it actually needs to be presented better, for example we ran from the great enemy to find the better place, now we found that place but enemy followed us there so let's us take our swords and fight for better tomorrow, defend our homes create our own paradise.
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I would agree with you except that the Enemy didn't follow us here.
Telamon said:
For the first time since your long flight has ended, fear has arisen in the hearts of your people. The Enemy was here before you. He lies to the west and the east and the north, and it seems there is no place in all the world free from his reach. There is no hope under the sun, for the Shadow is Lord of all the World.
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So unfortunately until Morgoth is thrown into the Void until Dagor Dagorath and Men's memory forget him a little, believing in Iluvatar might be much harder than it should be. Or the Valar. Since none of them showed themselves to us. Maybe if we met Melian this might work, but when the only divine being you know is darkness incarnate...
 
@Telamon
Is it possible for you to elaborate on the details of Defiance and The Old Hope, that we might know exactly what we're espousing as opposed to making potentially false conjectures out of it, or do we have to try it/succeed to see that?
 
Appirinia said:
I would agree with you except that the Enemy didn't follow us here.
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Small mistake on my part.

Let's try it again. For as long as we know we had run from the shadow yet now we are standing here knowing that no matter where we run there's no escape from the enemy. So the answer is simple, we will not find our promised land, our better tomorrow by running, no we must fight, fight for our families, our future, so that our children may live peaceful life's, because even if it seems impossible we will not give up, we will move forward and seize our future, we will make our betters tomorrow with our own hands.


Or something like that.
 
Star said:
Small mistake on my part.

Let's try it again. For as long as we know we had run from the shadow yet now we are standing here knowing that no matter where we run there's no escape from the enemy. So the answer is simple, we will not find our promised land, our better tomorrow by running, no we must fight, fight for our families, our future, so that our children may live peaceful life's, because even if it seems impossible we will not give up, we will move forward and seize our future, we will make our betters tomorrow with our own hands.

Or something like that.
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What you're describing sounds a lot like Defiance to me. To spit in the face of the Enemy, to live a good life despite God being a being of darkness, to forge a path of our own in the light instead of following blindly because He's the only one we know. To fight for happiness and joy and the good that this broken world holds and if it comes to it to die defiant.

We didn't chose him and never will.

As I said before, defiance doesn't need to mean hoplesness and fatalism. It doesn't have to be a reckless rush towards death. We don't know Iluvatar, not his plans, not our destination after.

All we have is this life. And a God that is the Nameless, the Shadow.

So we'll live our life, on our terms. We'll find beauty in the imperfect, light in the dark and hope in our fellow man.

And if we die, we do so spitting Morgoth. Because he might be God, but not one of our choosing.

And so we deny him.

Edit: Or to explain more plainly, it's not about marching up to Angband to spit in Morgoth face. It's more of a spiritual denial, 'spitting in Morgoth's face'. Because let's face it, not all Men will die in battle. Some will die of old age, of diseases, and yet with their last breaths let them remain defiant, let them deny the Shadow and spit in its face.
 
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Appirinia said:
What you're describing sounds a lot like Defiance to me. To spit in the face of the Enemy, to live a good life despite God being a being of darkness, to forge a path of our own in the light instead of following blindly because He's the only one we know. To fight for happiness and joy and the good that this broken world holds and if it comes to it to die defiant.

We didn't chose him and never will.

As I said before, defiance doesn't need to mean hoplesness and fatalism. It doesn't have to be a reckless rush towards death. We don't know Iluvatar, not his plans, not our destination after.

All we have is this life. And a God that is the Nameless, the Shadow.

So we'll live our life, on our terms. We'll find beauty in the imperfect, light in the dark and hope in our fellow man.

And if we die, we do so spitting Morgoth. Because he might be God, but not one of our choosing.

And so we deny him.

Edit: Or to explain more plainly, it's not about marching up to Angband to spit in Morgoth face. It's more of a spiritual denial, 'spitting in Morgoth's face'. Because let's face it, not all Men will die in battle. Some will die of old age, of diseases, and yet with their last breaths let them remain defiant, let them deny the Shadow and spit in its face.
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It's difference in perspective. We aren't doing it to spit our enemy in the face, to deny him the pleasure of victory, we aren't seeking happiness in misery of our enemy's, we are doing it for ourselves, for our children sake, because we know that even if we die today other will live into tomorrow.

If we die we die knowing that our sacrifice was meaningful, that even if we perish someone else will find happiness, be even closer to our dream while we will find finally find rest at Iluvatars side.

Or better said we won't live our life's and fight our battles in Morgoth's name even if it means to opose him, we live and die foe the future without him, for the world in where he doesn't exist.
 
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Appirinia said:
Just because you see Defiance as fatalistic doesn't mean it is to many of us. The world is Morgoth's Ring and will be until the end of time. The Shadow will never lift from it until Dagor Dagorath and that is a fact. It's not something we can escape. But neither can we hope to forever look at the stars and hope there is a kinder world beyond death, because we don't know that for sure.

So why shouldn't we defy it and the suffering it wants to bring to us? Why shouldn't we make our stands and if it does end with our death, why not make it grinning and spitting in its face? There is something about this that speaks of enduring hope and faith in the strength of our hearts and spirits to struggle and overcome the fear and darkness that wants to weaken and enslave us.

The world is imperfect and flawed and sorrowful, but the race of Men will struggle and fight and overcome all trials and tribulations. We are here and we are here to stay and if we must be defiant to achieve happiness and joy, we'll do it.
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It's fine, of course, if you choose to view it like that. But Defiance is inherently fatalistic, fatalism being the belief that fate is predetermined and unavoidable and an acceptance of that fact. The Defiance accepts the enemy is the master of the world, that he can't be defeated, and that this is something we just have to accept. That the best we can do is defy him right to the end, 'spit in his eye as we go grinning to our death'.

Now that's fine, it's a perfectly valid perspective for you to want the House of Beor to have. But it is what it is.

Now, of course, we must defy the Shadow, the great enemy, and the suffering he wants to put us through. And the Old Hope has that, but it's not just blind defiance because there's nothing else, no other option. It's the hope that it can be defied, that the defiance accomplishes something. That even if our defiance only ensures our survival and the survival of the next generation that things can get better, and there is hope at the end for a victory, even if not at our hands.

In the end, it's personal preference. I'm not claiming either is better than the other, it's just that as I said before I prefer the sorrow of Man be somewhat bittersweet with the slightest hope just barely visible in the distance; rather than the heart-rending sorrow of blind defiance with no hope of victory.
 
HastyGaming said:
In the end, it's personal preference. I'm not claiming either is better than the other, it's just that as I said before I prefer the sorrow of Man be somewhat bittersweet with the slightest hope just barely visible in the distance; rather than the heart-rending sorrow of blind defiance with no hope of victory.
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I am sure many people will see Defiance as being fatalistic, if anything I view it as realistic with the evidence that the House of Beor has, but there does seem to be a trend of people preferring other things viewing it as such, and those supporting it showing alternate viewpoints. Whichever way it goes, I like the discussion.
 
The issue is that no matter what we say our favored philosophies are, we don't know what form they'll actually take.
Adhoc vote count started by HastyGaming on Aug 20, 2019 at 4:44 PM, finished with 284 posts and 32 votes.
  • [X] Plan Recruiting Heroes, Keeping to the Old Ways
    [X] Plan Action Economy Development
    [X]Plan Narn I Chîn Marach
    [X] Plan To Fight Fear
    [x] Plan Hunting is All
    -[x] You tell Belen and the Wise to study the arts of the Valar themselves, and perhaps find a path that even the elves have not walked. (???)
    -[x] The Defiance: Mayhap you cannot lift the shadow from their hearts, but you may be able to turn them against it. Your people did not give in for a dozen lifetimes of the Great Flight -- why should they succumb to fear now that it is ended. The Enemy has followed us here -- so what? The Enemy is master of the world -- so what? We will spit in his eye all the same, and go grinning to our deaths. (???)
    --[X] Belen
    -[x] The Wood: Amras, youngest among the Feanorians, once rode on great hunts with the Huntsman of the Valar himself, Orome. He has a few tricks he can show even your hunters. The twin sons of Feanor know how to drive their prey before them, and how to bend the wood to their will. (Chance of learning a Cultural Lore)(Lose the Ambarussa bonus next turn)
    --[X] Halbeth​
    -[x] Trade With Them: Your people remember the dwarves your ancient fathers met, a short and stout people with a love of coin. If their cousins are anything similar, they will value wealth over flinging dirt. (-1 Wealth)
    --[X] Baran​

    -[x] Greet Them: You send someone to welcome your cousins to the new land.
    -[x] Gift Them: You send someone with a few elven trinkets as a gift. Beauty like this does not exist beyond the mountains. Hopefully they will be suitably impressed.
    -[x] There are some among the Wise whose voices are deep and whose words cut the soul with their beauty. Their music is an echo of the First. (Chance of recruiting a bard leader)
    --[x] Belen(free action)
    -[x] The Hunters are petitioning you to build a lodge on the outskirts of the village where they can gather, clean their kills, and set out on rangings.
    -[x] You encourage the Hunters to get closer to the Elven visitors and learn their knowledge.
    -[X] You increase the number of hunters out on the plains, that you might gather more food this year. (Hunters gather more food)(Increased Hunter influence)(The tribe is less defended)​
    -[x] You have seen the massive herds of the House of Marach, for you are not blind. You would have herds such as these. You begin attempting to increase the size of your people's herds.
    [X] Plan Healing Moon/Too Late To Gain Supporters​
    -[X] Invite the dark-haired men to join you in Estolad, and swear themselves to the elves. (Increased relation with Finrod, some of the new men may share Estolad with you)​

    --[X] Baran​

    -[X] The Land Above The Rivers: The wide land called Thargelion is open and lush, and may well be home to some few of the ents. If any have settled in these open plains, it would likely be the Entwives, who value open land to plant and tend their great gardens. The Entwives, the Elves say, know the secrets of the growing things.​
    --[X] Halbeth​
    -[X] The Moon Way: In the darkest days of the Great Flight, when the Shadow stretched across the world and the power of the Enemy prevailed upon all, those who could walk without sound and move without sight were valued above all others. This is the way they kept silent from the Orcs and outran the Wargs, in the light of the moon in older days. The Elves know the power of the Moon, whom they call Ithil, and name it among the great enemies of the Shadow.​
    -[X] The Healing Way: An old crone named Imarwen remembers her mothers' mothers tales of the grasses and the herbs and the words which could heal, which could quicken womb and help bone mend. The words have all but been forgotten, and the skill is all but dead. Belen learns it from her. The elves know something of this way, and say in their songs that Este, the gentlest of the Valar, weeps for the suffering of mortals, and aids them as she can.​
    -[X] The hunters say that there seems to be great abundance in the forests to your north. They wish to explore it.​
    -[X] The hunters have found a mighty boar that rampages through the forests, and has already slain two men. You declare a Great Hunt to find and kill the boar, promising that the man who slays it will be rewarded with extra food and a celebration in his honor. (Requires two months of food)​
    -[X] You begin the construction of small, temporary homes to shelter your people. Little more than hovels of mud and wood, they are still more than you have ever known.​
    --[X] Request Elven Aid (may owe the elves)​

    -[X] You give extra rations to the elderly and the Wise, that the memory of where we have been does not fade before it can be passed on. (Requires an extra month of food)(Increase the influence of the Wise)​

    -[X] You increase the number of hunters out on the plains, that you might gather more food this year. (Hunters gather more food)(Increased Hunter influence)(The tribe is less defended)​
    [X] The hunters have found a mighty boar that rampages through the forests, and has already slain two men. You declare a Great Hunt to find and kill the boar, promising that the man who slays it will be rewarded with extra food and a celebration in his honor. (Requires two months of food): DC 150​
    -[X] Invite the dark-haired men to join you in Estolad, and swear themselves to the elves. (Increased relation with Finrod, some of the new men may share Estolad with you): DC 110​
    -[X] The Land Above The Rivers: The wide land called Thargelion is open and lush, and may well be home to some few of the ents. If any have settled in these open plains, it would likely be the Entwives, who value open land to plant and tend their great gardens. The Entwives, the Elves say, know the secrets of the growing things. DC: 90​
    [X] Plan Phone a Finrod
    [X] Plan Up and Comers By Moonlight
    -[X] The Starmoon: When your elven visitors speak of the Moon, they speak also of Ithildin, the starmoon, the script of living light with which they write upon their blades and their doors and their armor, which protects them always and garbs them in the light of the moon. You could learn of Ithildin, though it would take time, they say. (May Upgrade The Moon Way to The Path of the Moon)
    --[X] Send Belen: You send your brother Belen to study and learn this art from the elves. (Belen will leave for 3 turns, significant chance of success)
    -[x] The Defiance: Mayhap you cannot lift the shadow from their hearts, but you may be able to turn them against it. Your people did not give in for a dozen lifetimes of the Great Flight -- why should they succumb to fear now that it is ended. The Enemy has followed us here -- so what? The Enemy is master of the world -- so what? We will spit in his eye all the same, and go grinning to our deaths. (???)
    --[X] Leader Baran
    -[X] The Sons Of Fire: You ask the Feanorians to aid you in all your endeavors for the next year, to lend their wisdom and expertise to all your tasks. (The Ambarussa bonus is doubled next year, and applies to Diplomacy and Combat as well)
    -[x] Trade With Them: Your people remember the dwarves your ancient fathers met, a short and stout people with a love of coin. If their cousins are anything similar, they will value wealth over flinging dirt. (-1 Wealth)
    -[X] Speak With Marach: You invite the boisterous and golden-haired leader of the tall men to speak with you in your newly-built home.
    -[x] There are some among the Wise whose voices are deep and whose words cut the soul with their beauty. Their music is an echo of the First. (Chance of recruiting a bard leader)
    --[X] Leader Belen
    -[X] The Wise are petitioning you to build a hall where they could gather and speak their stories.
    -[X] You increase the number of hunters out on the plains, that you might gather more food this year. (Hunters gather more food)(Increased Hunter influence)(The tribe is less defended)
    -[X] You attempt to construct a great Hall in your burgeoning village, to serve as your seat and the seat of your children.
    -[x] You have seen the massive herds of the House of Marach, for you are not blind. You would have herds such as these. You begin attempting to increase the size of your people's herds.
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VagrantHero said:
I am sure many people will see Defiance as being fatalistic, if anything I view it as realistic with the evidence that the House of Beor has, but there does seem to be a trend of people preferring other things viewing it as such, and those supporting it showing alternate viewpoints. Whichever way it goes, I like the discussion.
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I too have been enjoying the discussions, since I don't think there are any bad choices after all. Even if I don't agree with everyone. To be sure I'm more wary of some than others, but ultimately it boils down to rolls whether we suceed or not.

Edit: sorry for the double post. I'm still sleepy. I'll be more careful in the future.
 
Cyberphilosipher said:
Is Beran Born yet...I need that Tale to get a Mair as an IN law NOW!!
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The current date is F.A 313 and Beren was born in FA 432 but here we have a 3% chance per turn so the tale has good odds of starting sooner.
Who are getting born soon are the sons of our chief Baran those where born in 315 and 317 so he might be married at this time or about to get married(possibly with someone from the Host of Marach)
 
Can a Lore only be upgraded once? I mean, there are branches in the Lore tree, and does picking one mean the other is permanently out of reach?
 
I found a quote from a fic, The Starless Road on ao3 about the race of Men and it's so fitting to the Defiance choice that I had to share it with everyone.

'It is not that they are fearless, precisely: it goes beyond that. I would almost say that they are greatly afraid. They know very well how weak they are. But they make of their terror a mighty defiance, and so there is nothing they will not dare.'
 
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