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The Restless Dead Want YOU To Fight Necromancy

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DeepWaters said:
The argument is moot now, but I feel compelled to say: No. The chosen examples were very deliberate. The whole point was that they cannot replace each other in emergencies. A technomancer is not a warder, a warder is not a diviner, and a diviner is not a blood mage. If I'd been speaking of blood mages vs healers, perhaps, but the schools of magic are clearly diverse enough to count as a supercategory akin to the entire field of science.
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So, with recent WOG that argument's incorrect. With much trouble, admittedly, and with no small amount of danger either but mage schools can replace on another for dire emergencies.
 
Varder said:
So, with recent WOG that argument's incorrect. With much trouble, admittedly, and with no small amount of danger either but mage schools can replace on another for dire emergencies.
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You keep failing to address most of my argument in favor of trying to hone in on key points, as if that will somehow make my entire position fall apart. At this stage, it's clear that you've completely lost track of the original point of contention. It's good to know that mages can do magic in schools they aren't trained in, if in a very dangerous and makeshift fashion, but how is that relevant to the idea that selling Morgan's protection and healing magic during a zombie apocalypse isn't taking advantage of desperation, akin to hiking prices during a famine? How, exactly, is someone who's only able to do a ritual with difficulty and high likelihood of failure (wasting valuable time and resources, if not potentially risking serious injury or death) at all a replacement or valid competition for an experienced practitioner with directly applicable skills in a highly dangerous situation?
 
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Varder said:
So, with recent WOG that argument's incorrect. With much trouble, admittedly, and with no small amount of danger either but mage schools can replace on another for dire emergencies.
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Ah - just to make sure I'm not misunderstood, Morgan is better than mortal mages have time to become. A mortal mage who hastily experiments with big magic in an emergency will be either lucky or dead, if they make a habit of it. Or blessed by a god or destiny, I suppose.
 
We've been assured that Morgan pretty much has a monopoly on protection even when pit against mundane fortification.
Wysteria said:
Morgan is researching the details on zombie wards tonight, but here are a few preliminary thoughts:
  • Minor ritual/ward: 8 hours before recharge.
  • Regular ritual/ward: 8 days before recharge.
  • Major ritual/ward: 8 years before recharge. This is the level of protection around Morgan's house.
  • It has occurred to Morgan that if they combine a blood ritual declaring themselves feudal ruler with the major enchantment ward around their property line, they may be able to ward the whole town against zombies/hostile intruders. This would require general acknowledgement of them as leader within the town, backup singers (a coven, perhaps), at least a month of daily prep time + time to carve stones and gather other major ritual ingredients. You've missed the last full moon, so it's going to be a few weeks before it would be time to decide whether or not this is a good use of your time. [I was going to hold off on mentioning this until a later plan choice, but since you asked....]
Recharge: wards based in Morgan's magic can be recharged with blood sacrifice or magical power. You have to know how to do it, so a witch couldn't just come in and start recharging a ward Morgan created. Morgan's wards would be an ongoing trade, not a one-off deal.
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In the context of my question if we were setting ourselves up for rivals if we set up wards.
Lost Egos said:
How hard does Morgan think it is to set up magic/and or mundane barriers to keep the undead/zombies specifically/hostiles out. I'm asking to see how much we can trade on it to set up little communes like we are shaping up to be in places like the vet's farm and how long it would last as a unique trade good IE are we setting up potential client states or potential rivals/competitors. I guess I'll also ask how hard it would be to do the town and how much would being the Mayor/having a coven help?
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I still have the lingering suspicion that any ward we set up will just lead to the occupants fortifying the building against zombies before it needs to be refreshed but that might just be zombie movies skewing my perception of the difficulty involved.

Did I do this right?
Adhoc vote count started by NemoMarx on Jun 9, 2019 at 5:48 PM, finished with 850 posts and 28 votes.
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DeepWaters said:
You keep failing to address most of my argument in favor of trying to hone in on key points, as if that will somehow make my entire position fall apart. At this stage, it's clear that you've completely lost track of the original point of contention. It's good to know that mages can do magic in schools they aren't trained in, if in a very dangerous and makeshift fashion, but how is that relevant to the idea that selling Morgan's protection and healing magic during a zombie apocalypse isn't taking advantage of desperation, akin to hiking prices during a famine? How, exactly, is someone who's only able to do a ritual with difficulty and high likelihood of failure (wasting valuable time and resources, if not potentially risking serious injury or death) at all a replacement or valid competition for an experienced practitioner with directly applicable skills in a highly dangerous situation?
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Taking advantage of market deficiency is how people get rich. So long as one's services are not literally the one and only way to get what someone desires, the competition is fair and higher prices are fair. It's how it's always been, it's how it'll always be.

Plus so far the zombies seem relatively tame and weak so any additional magical protection is a luxury, not a necessity.
 
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Looks like a long term goal can be to contact other supernaturals and form a league of sorts!
 
Varder said:
Taking advantage of market deficiency is how people get rich. So long as one's services are not literally the one and only way to get what someone desires, the competition is fair and higher prices are fair. It's how it's always been, it's how it'll always be.

Plus so far the zombies seem relatively tame and weak so any additional magical protection is a luxury, not a necessity.
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There's a lot of irony in how strongly you're arguing this point, considering that you are voting for Feudalism and I am voting for Capitalism. I know that's how people get rich, but I'm also well-aware that, in this context, "taking advantage of market deficiency" is a fancy euphemism for "taking advantage of people who actively fear for their lives". I disagree strongly with any notion of "fair competition" that involves knowingly taking advantage of people in dire straits or dire need. I do not call that "free competition". I call that "exploitation". If you disagree (...) well, it seems our perspectives are fundamentally irreconcilable and alien to one another's, and this is not the avenue to pursue a continued debate.

As a side note, I would like to point out that these zombies, apparently, legitimately threaten to cause a zombie apocalypse. They gave an ancient vampire (noncombatant or no) a little trouble and worry the vampire hunters enough to voluntarily suggest putting themselves into the power of said ancient vampire (which, let me remind you, they'd been told their entire lives was evil and needed to be destroyed). You yourself argued the situation likely wouldn't be resolved within a year. Considering that, "relatively tame and weak" seems, to me, like a useless standard.
 
Yeah If I'd had a good write in for Socialism I would have went for that but couldn't think of an action that wasn't blood tax and rations for all. Capitalism felt predatory and Communism like it was being naive and going to fail with death as a consequence so I went with feudalism.
 
[X]…a capitalist. You'll offer to trade your warding and your healing magics for human blood.

I wouldn't mind becoming the ruler of the town but I feel that trading services for services better fits the character who is basically Business vamp. I do however hate the idea of someone focused on business and economics considering themselves a communist so if that looks like it's beating feudalism and I notice i'll change my vote. ​


DeepWaters said:
There's a lot of irony in how strongly you're arguing this point, considering that you are voting for Feudalism and I am voting for Capitalism. I know that's how people get rich, but I'm also well-aware that, in this context, "taking advantage of market deficiency" is a fancy euphemism for "taking advantage of people who actively fear for their lives". I disagree strongly with any notion of "fair competition" that involves knowingly taking advantage of people in dire straits or dire need. I do not call that "free competition". I call that "exploitation". If you disagree (...) well, it seems our perspectives are fundamentally irreconcilable and alien to one another's, and this is not the avenue to pursue a continued debate.
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I'm coming in on the tale end of the argument here but I don't see how Capitalism is about exploitation or taking advantage of desperation. I just don't see it, for one the items that Morgan values, blood and ritual supplies are the exact same items needed for the job. More then that most ritual supplies are all but useless in a survival situation unless your a mage able to defend yourself and people have a limit on the amount of blood that they can provide or eat without getting overstuffed which means if large amounts of blood are being consumed large amounts of spells are cast meaning the payment shouldn't be much more then the amount of blood the spell costed.

Now If the option was something like look at all these suckers I'm going to drain them dry then maybe I would be worried about exploitation but with things as they are I don't see how that would be a problem.
 
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kitsune9 said:
[X]…a capitalist. You'll offer to trade your warding and your healing magics for human blood.

I wouldn't mind becoming the ruler of the town but I feel that trading services for services better fits the character who is basically Business vamp. I do however hate the idea of someone focused on business and economics considering themselves a communist so if that looks like it's beating feudalism and I notice i'll change my vote. ​




I'm coming in on the tale end of the argument here but I don't see how Capitalism is about exploitation or taking advantage of desperation. I just don't see it, for one the items that Morgan values, blood and ritual supplies are the exact same items she needs to have if she's going to do the job that they are paying her for. More then that most ritual supplies are all but useless in a survival situation unless your a mage able to defend yourself and she has a limit on the amount of blood that she can eat without getting overstuffed which means if she's demanding large amounts of blood she's also casting large amounts of spells meaning the payment shouldn't be much more then the amount of blood the spell costed.

Now If the option was something like look at all these suckers I'm going to drain them dry then maybe I would be worried about exploitation but with things as they are I don't see how that would be a problem.
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"She"?
 
kitsune9 said:
I'm coming in on the tale end of the argument here but I don't see how Capitalism is about exploitation or taking advantage of desperation. I just don't see it, for one the items that Morgan values, blood and ritual supplies are the exact same items she needs to have if she's going to do the job that they are paying her for. More then that most ritual supplies are all but useless in a survival situation unless your a mage able to defend yourself and she has a limit on the amount of blood that she can eat without getting overstuffed which means if she's demanding large amounts of blood she's also casting large amounts of spells meaning the payment shouldn't be much more then the amount of blood the spell costed.

Now If the option was something like look at all these suckers I'm going to drain them dry then maybe I would be worried about exploitation but with things as they are I don't see how that would be a problem.
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The point is that Morgan is benefiting from the desperation of others. If people in our local area want the protection of a skilled warder (wardist? warden?) during an actual zombie apocalypse, Morgan is likely to be the only viable option, able to ask any price they want. Even if they try to be fair, there is no real fairness possible in this kind of situation. Asking to trade one's bodily autonomy when one's life and the lives of people they care for are on the line is putting unfair and unreasonable pressure on them, tantamount to putting a price on human life. Don't get me wrong; this is the most practical option. I'd even call it a necessity if we don't go for feudalism (which is made less practical by the fact that it's likely to pit us directly against local factions we know nothing about while we're still trying to establish our base of power). Some people will see it better than others, and it's certainly far from the cruelest way Morgan could exploit people as a vampire with mind control abilities-- but it's still exploitation.

Also, pronouns.
 
DeepWaters said:
The point is that Morgan is benefiting from the desperation of others. If people in our local area want the protection of a skilled warder (wardist? warden?) during an actual zombie apocalypse, Morgan is likely to be the only viable option, able to ask any price they want. Even if they try to be fair, there is no real fairness possible in this kind of situation. Asking to trade one's bodily autonomy when one's life and the lives of people they care for are on the line is putting unfair and unreasonable pressure on them, tantamount to putting a price on human life. Don't get me wrong; this is the most practical option. I'd even call it a necessity if we don't go for feudalism (which is made less practical by the fact that it's likely to pit us directly against local factions we know nothing about while we're still trying to establish our base of power). Some people will see it better than others, and it's certainly far from the cruelest way Morgan could exploit people as a vampire with mind control abilities-- but it's still exploitation.

Also, pronouns.
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What I'm getting out of what your saying is that you think it is ethically wrong for Morgon to charge for their services because it's an emergency. I don't agree and if fact think that is a foolish position at best but I'm not sure why you think that only applies to Capitalism. What exactly do you think the feudal tax would be if not blood? In Capitalism a person pays for each ward in Feudalism a person pays for the right to live there. We've actually already started the Feudal path by agreeing to Thrall the two vampire hunters in exchange for a room and their daughters safety. The only version that supports your point of view is communism which would rely on free donations and if she didn't get them she would simply not set up wards or use magic and let the chips fall where they would or Morgon would use magic anyway and either starve or rampage.

I believe that charging for a service is different from price gouging for a service. There should be ways to determine a price for each service in fact I said earlier that the easiest was by using the amount of blood needed to restore Morgen after casting the ritual you paid for. Now people might consider said price to be too high and selfish but given that said blood is needed to cast magic. it's also a price that is built into the system if they want to have access to magic at all. In fact to charge less blood would risk personal starvation and rampage and to charge more would lead to overflow and waste so price gouging shouldn't be possible.
 
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kitsune9 said:
What I'm getting out of what your saying is that you think it is ethically wrong for Morgon to charge for their services because it's an emergency. I don't agree and if fact think that is a foolish position at best but I'm not sure why you think that only applies to Capitalism.

What exactly do you think the feudal tax would be if not blood? In Capitalism a person pays for each ward in Feudalism a person pays for the right to live there. We've actually already started the Feudal path by agreeing to Thrall the two vampire hunters in exchange for a room and their daughters safety.

The only version that supports your point of view is communism which would rely on free donations and if she didn't get them she would simply not set up wards or use magic and let the chips fall where they would or Morgon would use magic anyway and either starve or rampage.

I believe that charging for a service is different from price gouging for a service. There should be ways to determine a price for each service in fact I said earlier that the easiest was by using the amount of blood needed to restore Morgen after casting the ritual you paid for. Now people might consider said price to be too high and selfish but given that said blood is needed to cast magic. it's also a price that is built into the system if they want to have access to magic at all. In fact to charge less blood would risk personal starvation and rampage and to charge more would lead to overflow and waste so price gouging shouldn't be possible.
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I am sorry if this turns out blunt, but I'm getting rather tired of this debate, so it's very hard for me to word things in a manner that's civil and fair to you as a fresh entrant. As such:

You're strawmanning me, I'm afraid. I've said before that I don't actually think feudalism is better morally or ethically-- the only reason it would be better in this context is because protection is at least an explicit responsibility of a lord under feudalistic ideals, and Morgan is likely to be a good example as far as lords go. I also stated before that I would ideally prefer communism, but didn't think it would actually pan out for similar reasons to the ones you stated (though I went into it far more, and "free donations" is an incorrect and quite ironically uncharitable way to put it). If you need an explicit statement: yes, I do think that feudalism is as intrinsically exploitative as capitalism, and that voluntary altruistic communism is the utopian pipedream that I'm too cynical to place any faith in. This is why I am voting for Capitalism while also ardently arguing that it is immoral.

The rest of your argument is moot: price gouging occurs when a price is considered unreasonable or unfair, and you have not addressed at all my argument that it is impossible to put a fair price on the promise of safety when someone's life and the lives of the people they care for are at imminent risk. If you cannot dispute that, then by definition to charge any price is to price gouge. Do not mistake me: on several occasions, I have already stated that this is practical and necessary in this situation. That makes it justifiable. That doesn't make it not exploitation, and that should be acknowledged rather than rationalizing it away. Exploiting the needs of others to fulfill our own needs is still exploitation.

In other words: I don't believe the best option is always the same as the ideal one, nor do I believe it is always possible to reconcile the ethical choice with the realistic one. You should not argue against me as if I do. I understand this might make me hard to argue against. :p

As an unrelated sidenote: such a zero-sum system as the one you suggest would have all the downsides of the Capitalist option without any of the upsides, since Morgan needs blood to live in addition to the blood they use to conduct rituals. They have to "charge" more than they end up using.
 
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Vote closed at seven, fyi. Feudalism is go.

I am enjoying the enthusiasm of debate on this one, I hope y'all are too?

I am getting the impression Morgan has a lot of thoughts about how to exist as a vampire without being a parasite.
 
Wysteria said:
Vote closed at seven, fyi. Feudalism is go.

I am enjoying the enthusiasm of debate on this one, I hope y'all are too?

I am getting the impression Morgan has a lot of thoughts about how to exist as a vampire without being a parasite.
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Yep, being economically minded and being asleep for 100 years can do that. Sort of like Captain America. But not really, cuz Morgan isn't like Cap at all. Well, their circumstances are a bit similar. Yeah that's about it.
Also, does that mean my joke option of "societal parasite" didn't win? Would be interesting how that works. Morgan just shows up at random friends' houses and asks to bum off a couple pints of blood, sleeps on their couch, and doesn't wash their feet.
...
Yeah that doesn't sound like Morgan!
 
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LadyRowyn said:
Morgan by Lady Rowyn, on Flickr

I did some fan art of Morgan because <3

Also, if Morgan can lose willpower for players misgendering them OOCly in the thread, is there anything players can do OOCly to restore willpower? /o_o\
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By groveling at the QM's feet and offering up sacrifices of fan art and omakes such as this, of course!
 
LadyRowyn said:
Morgan by Lady Rowyn, on Flickr

I did some fan art of Morgan because <3

Also, if Morgan can lose willpower for players misgendering them OOCly in the thread, is there anything players can do OOCly to restore willpower? /o_o\
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Rowyn it's so good. <3<3<3

Official gold star and you can choose between the following: plot armor for the character(s) of your choice. +5 on a random chance d100 roll. A 250+ word side story or informational post.

I'll think about the other question, but I'm inclined towards no. Being misgendered is exhausting for Morgan and makes Morgan sad and grumpy.
 
kitsune9 said:
Please Quote then because the only time I remember it being mentioned was in the post on the same page which was edited an hour before you commented. I don't remember anything about a first strike at all either.
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I let the general commentariat handle first strikes because I don't need the stress. Aldersprig told you. As Deepwaters and Plausitivity warned you on this round.
 
kitsune9 said:
Please Quote then because the only time I remember it being mentioned was in the post on the same page which was edited an hour before you commented. I don't remember anything about a first strike at all either.
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kitsune9 said:
I just don't see it, for one the items that Morgan values, blood and ritual supplies are the exact same items she needs to have if she's going to do the job that they are paying her for.
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Bolding mine.
 
Wysteria said:
Vote closed at seven, fyi. Feudalism is go.

I am enjoying the enthusiasm of debate on this one, I hope y'all are too?

I am getting the impression Morgan has a lot of thoughts about how to exist as a vampire without being a parasite.
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I think the majority of the debate has missed a part of what this vote was about, namely "what Morgan believes in their heart" rather than "what Morgan think the best method to use right now is".

Although in the end Feudalism won (which I am very satisfied with ^^), I don't think it is an immediately good plan to go through with the King-and-the-Land ritual Wysteria has mentioned, especially considering the new information about the Veil.
In particular, to implement the Vampire Lord of Ithaca thing we would require "a significant portion of the population" to accept us as such( I can't find Wysterias quote, but I'm pretty sure they said something along those lines). That would require a huge break in the Veil, and a proportionate response from outside threats interested in keeping the Veil intact.

That does not mean I don't want Morgan to eventually become Lord of Ithaca. My preferred method would be to ( after the whole zombie thing has, if not "blown over", at least somewhat stabilized) keep largely to our estate and neighbourhood, but establishing ourselves as a powerful agent willing to help, often for a favour or for reasonable exchange of services ( getting money out of supernaturals seems wasteful), cementing our role as a central figure within the local supernatural community. This we could steer towards establishing good relationships and eventually blood bonds with at least one member in good standing within all ( or most) supernatural factions, which naturally, organically results in us owning Ithaca.

That said, regarding our current situation, I think Morgan should explain the situation to most of the people living in their house ( probably in private conversations, so that bystander effect doesn't cause problems), and simply ask people to donate blood for the cause of keeping Morgan peaceful and sane (downplaying the danger, since we don't want the m to think it's more dangerous than living outside the wards),and ask some choice people ( such as Robert, Wyatt, Ken(?), Lisa) to undergo a blood bond.
I believe this method looks most like a compromise between feudalism and communism, based on mutual interest and the building of a relationship to Morgans people.
 
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