The problem with Sauske Uchiha(And Shonen as a whole)

I understand friendship and all, but when your former brother does these things, he's no longer your fellow brother

What I can never wrap my head around is people get all angry that Naruto forgives Sasuke even though he forgave Nagato, you know, the guy that actually murdered a significant portion of Konoha (instead of saying he will and then immediately promising that he'll fight Naruto first and then destroy the village, a promise he holds himself to) before the guy said "lol okay I'll resurrect the people I killed," and this guy was nothing to Naruto.

There was a precedence for this behavior.

It ruined any nuance the character had.

In what fantasy world is "I'm an evil dickbag because I'm bored" more nuanced than "I had to sacrifice my clan to prevent a civil war that'd destroy Konoha and then forced myself into exile, unable to even enjoy the presence of the person I made this sacrifice for (because I fucked up)"

Edit: Itachi's "praise" comes from people that have pretty messed up standards. Just as an example Hashirama calls him a "better shinobi" for killing his clan to protect the village, much like he killed Madara to protect the village. He's speaking without knowing how horribly he fucked up with Sasuke. Not to mention that he comes back and talks almost solely about he was a gigantic fuck up to like, 2 people. (The vast majority of the world is still convinced he's an evil scumbag)
 
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Yeah, he does. Sasuke is an incredibly dynamic character who's constantly reacting and developing over the course of the manga. Through his actions, you get an extremely complete "map" of what kind of person he is, and most impressively the internal logic that governs his actions becomes very plain to see, despite the manga almost never dropping inside his head and making his thoughts explicit like it does with many, many other characters.

That's like, Good Character Development 101. If you want to create someone who organically changes over the course of the story, Sasuke is a great example.

I understand that despite appearances, you're not stupid, you just haven't read the manga in what is probably years, and when you were reading it, you weren't paying that much attention, so I'll try to help you out here. One of the main crux's of Naruto is highlighting the differences between Naruto and Sasuke and explaining why they took the paths they did, and why they ended up diametrically opposed. They're extremely similar people despite appearances (which is why they're naturally drawn to each other).

Naruto's a very canny guy: there's a good reason he acknowledges (and Sasuke later agrees, when he's more reasonable) that if some things had changed, their positions might have been reversed by the Kage Summit.

They start out with very different goals that both revolve around becoming stronger: Naruto wants to become Hokage (first to get the Village's acknowledgement, and later to protect it), and Sasuke wants to kill Itachi. Both those things can't be achieved by anything but improving as a shinobi. And they both rapidly, rapidly improve, but where Naruto (with significant difficulty) meets success after success (especially in Sasuke's eyes, since he's not there to see most of Naruto's failures, like getting nearly killed by Kabuto), Sasuke keeps getting kicked while he's down.


Which sends his self esteem (mind you, he was already subtly suicidal, so going farther down from that isn't exactly a good thing, lmao) plummeting below the fucking earth. As soon as he wakes up from his Second Tsukuyomi, he challenges Naruto to a duel on the hospital's rooftop, trying to gauge if his suspicion is correct: if the Dead Last in the academy really has become better than him in so short a time, even though Sasuke's ambition is dead serious, and Naruto's is patently ridiculous.

It's a mutual fight, and a way of showing respect, but Naruto completely misreads the situation, and acts like an arrogant asshole throughout it (as Part 1 Naruto usually does in what he perceives as normal social situations), completely confident that he'll win. This, combined with Itachi not noticing Sasuke at all in their last meeting (solely there to kidnap Naruto), just rubs dirt in the wound.


(what a little shit you were, Naruto)

What makes it worse is that Naruto constantly escalates the fight: first bringing out Shadow Clones, and then when Sasuke pops those with a fireball, a Rasengan, which forces Sasuke to escalate to the Chidori. And worst off all, when Kakashi interrupts them and they end up hitting two water towers with their jutsu:


Absolute proof in Sasuke's mind that Naruto's overtaken him, despite starting out much, much weaker, with a dumber dream and less natural talent. The Sound Four arrive soon afterwards and bully the fuck out of him, telling him that they were useless before they went to Orochimaru and he gave them their powers; that, combined with the influence of the Curse Seal, is what makes Sasuke decide that leaving and going to Orochimaru will make him strong enough to take on his brother, despite Kakashi's attempt to steer him away.

It's obviously an incredible difficult decision though, considering that it takes him nearly a month to leave.

Sasuke's breaking lasts through pretty much the entirety of Part 1, where constantly getting shit on ends up making him take rash, short-sighted actions to reach his goal quicker. We see the same thing happen to Naruto in Part 2, when he goes up against Nagato.

Nagato takes Jiraiya, Kakashi, Fukasaku, and Hinata from him, all while showing him just how weak he really is (sounds very similar to Sasuke, how strange. How especially strange it is that only after this does Naruto really claim to understand Part 2 Sasuke, and understand the consequences of trying to bring him back (it's not that strange)). How does Naruto react?



Whoops. Naruto comes within literal centimeters of tearing the Nine-Tails seal off, which would have killed him, destroyed Konoha, and then who knows, probably fucked off. The only reason he doesn't manage it is because his dad programmed a literal "Hug In Case Of Emergency" button into the seal (smart guy), and the only reason he's not still shattered afterwards is because Pain rewards his fulfillment of Jiraiya's ambitions with a village-wide resurrection. If Sasuke had had one of those, never mind both, he certainly never would have gotten as crazy as he did by the Kage Summit.

So... that's why Naruto and Sasuke ended up traveling different (but rhyming) paths, despite their similar starting positions.

Huh well, I guess I can understand why some people like Sauske a bit better, I admit I quit reading once Sauske turned into an unrepentant asshole, I know about the ending and some of Boruto, but in my opinion I just can't really like him

Part of the reason for that is because it seems that they just keep repeating this same formula for a character like Sauske, but make it worse somehow, even when there's a road map laid out clear in front of them.

Thank god Bakugo didn't turn out like that though
 
Well, he gave three, but the only one I knew (Levi) didn't really fit. I'll leave people wiser than me to say if the other two may be better expies.
Haseo is a needlessly edgy shonen protag whose very existence craps on the prior lore of the setting (since he's in a sequel series) he's also basically Kirito before Kirito was written.
 
So the fact he tries to kill everyone is just going to be ignored huh? Also he willingly joined up with Orochimaru, and worked under him for the majority of Shippuden

I mean, considering he saved everyone too and the villages were granting amnesty to nigh everyone because all of them had done horrible things to each other before *with no exceptions*, that's actually a really good reason to let him off? From a 'community service' angle he can be argued to have worked it off, and from a realpolitik angle, going after known scores could easily destabilize a very fresh peace. Sasuke had a legit change of heart and his good deed far outweighed his bad (for another, he killed the worst version of Orochimaru).


From this conversation and ones like it, I do think a lot of people have a fair amount of problem with amnesty in general, because Sasuke's case is honestly a very strong one.
 
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I actually find Sasuke, especially part 1 Sasuke, to be a unique character. Most Shonen rivals tend to have an arc that goes something like this.

1) Antagonists asshole/outright villain
2) Hero beats them
3) Snarky jerk-sidekick with occasional lapses.

Piccolo, Vegeta, Von Stroheim (Jojo Part 2, Kaiba, half the stand users from Jojo's part 4, even characters from Naruto, such as Garaa, follow this arc.

But Sasuke doesn't, Sasuke isn't villainous. In fact, while a little arrogant, he isn't even that much of a jerk. It's Sasuke who first decides to feed Naruto in the bell test, it's Sasuke who first takes what he thought was a mortal blow for his teammate, by contrast, when Sasuke asks Naruto for help in tree climbings, Naruto refuses. Sure Sasuke isn't perfect, he doesn't ask Sakura for help, but it's a lot easier to ask your crush for help that to ask the person crushing on you.

What makes Sasuke interesting is that we get to experience his fall. We get to see as his hopes of advancement are dashed, and he sees himself falling behind. We see as Itachi comes back, tearing away any feelings of safety he might have in Konoha and reigniting his focus on vengeance, that, until that point had lost focus. Other rivals sometimes get flashbacks to pre-evil days, Garaa, is a good example here, but these flashbacks tend to have them only as some cute innocent kids. A way for the audience to go "he wasn't always bad", and score sympathy, but these flashbacks arn't really characters, they are sympathy blobs. Sasuke, by contrast, starts the series as a person, neither some perfect innocent, nor a villain, but someone with both good and bad.

Sasuke's arc in part 1 is something we don't normally get to see in Shonen anime, a tragedy. A character falling, into darkness and anger and hatred. A story that doesn't end with the hero beating them and making them see the light, but with them beating the hero, and going to a darker destiny. I will acknowledge that I find part two weaker because I don't feel like the narrative does as much with the villainous Sasuke as it does with fall, but part one Sasuke remains one of the most unique stories in Shonen, and I can't remember any story like it.
 
I thought the reveal that he was a good guy all along was one of if not the biggest misstep of the entire story. He was an effective and interesting villain, but fairly bland and over idealized hero. A villain who was so driven to find a worthy rival and a good fight that he destroyed and killed everything around him and was so bored with most fights he barely put any effort in was interesting and tragic and gave a pretty dark look at the fact that Naruto is about children put in life or death struggles and how that might impact them. As a hero he was just this super patriotic pacifist who was so pure and loving his own parents praised him for murdering them. It ruined any nuance the character had.
It's worth noting that this 'Nuance' is strictly cultural. In Japanese, Itachi being a good guy was about as obvious as a guy named Alucard being a Vampire
 

If I remember this correctly the argument goes something like this.

1) At one point Itachi tells Sasuke to live a wretched/disguising life
2) This references the forty-seven ronin, where samuri's master was killed. They all pretended to be drunken ronin so that no one would suspect they were still loyal, giving them an opportunity to revenge-kill and nobly accept their own death.
3) This means that Itachi was secretly loyal.

I'm mixed on this. Since I've only heard this said second-hand by Westerners explaining to other Westerners how the Japanese would interpret an action/reference. It could be true, but I've had things like this before where it turned out that people making claims about how an anime was interpreted in Japan were completely wrong, and either talking out their ass, or repeating what someone who was talking out their ass told them.
 
It's worth noting that this 'Nuance' is strictly cultural. In Japanese, Itachi being a good guy was about as obvious as a guy named Alucard being a Vampire
Even if you accept that he still loses a lot when he's revealed to be a good guy. He's such a good guy and so pure and lovely it's silly. I mean once they show his parents praising him for killing their whole family to stop the coup it had gotten out of hand.
 
Even if you accept that he still loses a lot when he's revealed to be a good guy. He's such a good guy and so pure and lovely it's silly. I mean once they show his parents praising him for killing their whole family to stop the coup it had gotten out of hand.
I never interpreted that scene as Praise. I saw it as them encouraging him to do what he had to do.
 
Wait a minute... I vaguely remember a lot of scenes of Sasuke actually aiming to kill his former teammates like that one memorable scene Sakura was about to eat a Chidori to the face and only Kakashi's last second save stopped him. Like it was pretty obvious Sasuke actively burned his bridges when it came to Konoha Shinobi. Like I remember that one time Sakura had to be saved by Yamato or eat a sword through the face... Uh, that time after Sasuke tried to kill Sakura after he killed Danzo.

Like sure I don't dislike Sasuke but we cant just sit here and say "Yeah, Sasuke wasn't trying to kill people." It's basically luck that his goals aligned so neatly with everyone elses for a long time and only really met really strong Shinobi who could tank him and his team without dying. Like who the fuck knows if he has killed scores of Hunternin (assuming they're a global thing, or if it's just Anbu or ROOT's job for Konoha)

Also rip random Samurai mooks Sasuke absolutely slaughtered during the Kage summit.


"Sasuke doesn't kill people"
 
Wait a minute... I vaguely remember a lot of scenes of Sasuke actually aiming to kill his former teammates like that one memorable scene Sakura was about to eat a Chidori to the face and only Kakashi's last second save stopped him. Like it was pretty obvious Sasuke actively burned his bridges when it came to Konoha Shinobi. Like I remember that one time Sakura had to be saved by Yamato or eat a sword through the face... Uh, that time after Sasuke tried to kill Sakura after he killed Danzo.

Like sure I don't dislike Sasuke but we cant just sit here and say "Yeah, Sasuke wasn't trying to kill people." It's basically luck that his goals aligned so neatly with everyone elses for a long time and only really met really strong Shinobi who could tank him and his team without dying. Like who the fuck knows if he has killed scores of Hunternin (assuming they're a global thing, or if it's just Anbu or ROOT's job for Konoha)

Also rip random Samurai mooks Sasuke absolutely slaughtered during the Kage summit.


"Sasuke doesn't kill people"

Prior to Killing Itachi, Sasuke had an explicit no kill rule going for innocent bystanders. His friends just didn't count as bystanders in his view
 
Prior to Killing Itachi, Sasuke had an explicit no kill rule going for innocent bystanders. His friends just didn't count as bystanders in his view

I mean, probably. He did try to kill off Karin (you know... His fanatically loyal teammate) and she was only saved by Sakura. He let's Suigetsu on his team who is a blatant murderhobo. I mean to be fair Sasuke did tell him to knock it off but Suigetsu and I don't think Suigetsu killed anyone on screen after joining Hebi/Taka.

We can also look at the collateral damage the few times the series goes into an 'urban' area but if we do that basically all Shonen heroes are mass murderers after WMD'ing a city block +.
 
I actually really like Sasuke early on. I thought he was cool, badass, the perfect foil to Naruto. But that pre-Shippuden, and much of my view of Sasuke is very negative. The man went on to fucked up his own country and was just like, accepted back willy nilly by Naruto. I understand friendship and all, but when your former brother does these things, he's no longer your fellow brother.

Idk enough about Boruto to say anything about him though. Did he get better?

The closest thing he does related to betraying Konohana is... well, murdering Danzo, and that dude was an asshole fucknugget who the world was better off without.

Like, he was at his scummiest during the Five Kage Summit arc, yeah, but erm...

During the Summit Arc and after said arc, he was a cuckoo for cocoa puffs batshit crazy lunatic.

It's entirely possible to say that he wasn't exactly... mentally competent.

Also, to make sure I'm not ninja'd, why the fuck do people think Sasuke's an edgelord?

Holy shit, the dude effectively lived through genocide and was forced to watch it three days over. TWICE.
 
Holy shit, the dude effectively lived through genocide and was forced to watch it three days over. TWICE.

Got to love the second time. I mean, the first time might make some sort of twisted sense, in a completely insane kind of way; the second one, however, was... I really don't know what Itachi thought he was doing at that time. "Hmm, he's showing signs of becoming a functional human being that could find a place in Konoha, which is what I want. Let's ruin that, shall we?"
 
The closest thing he does related to betraying Konohana is... well, murdering Danzo, and that dude was an asshole fucknugget who the world was better off without.

Like, he was at his scummiest during the Five Kage Summit arc, yeah, but erm...

During the Summit Arc and after said arc, he was a cuckoo for cocoa puffs batshit crazy lunatic.

It's entirely possible to say that he wasn't exactly... mentally competent.

Also, to make sure I'm not ninja'd, why the fuck do people think Sasuke's an edgelord?

Holy shit, the dude effectively lived through genocide and was forced to watch it three days over. TWICE.
Because part 2 Naruto turned into shit due to awful writing, and Sauske turned into an annoying prick who wanted to kill his friends, and his own teammates
 
Because part 2 Naruto turned into shit due to awful writing, and Sauske turned into an annoying prick who wanted to kill his friends, and his own teammates

During the Kage Summit Arc.

That's... really the edgiest shit he does.

It's legitimately shitty and people should give him all the shade for it but holy shit the motherfucker was crazy as all get out and "non-shitty" people in this series have done worse.
 
During the Kage Summit Arc.

That's... really the edgiest shit he does.

There is one thing that really buggers me about the whole Kage summit when it comes to Sasuke's characterization. Up until Itachi's death, his actions are consistent with what we know of him. Then Tobi spills the beans, Sasuke is understandably devastated, and we're waiting to see where this will lead him. If the Kage summit had happened immediately after that, I would have bought the "Sasuke is currently insane with grief" without any trouble. My problem is, between those two events, we see him in the capture attempt on Killerbee, and... he's not like that. Like, at all. He puts himself at personal risk for his teammates, we know from his internal narration that he does care for them, in his own way, and it all flies out the window in his next appearence, with nothing happening to justify the complete switch. I mean, I guess you could try to say "having Danzo so close made him lose all restraints", but it feels like we missed a scene offscreen, or that we should forget this whole Killerbee mission ever happened.
 
He puts himself at personal risk for his teammates, we know from his internal narration that he does care for them, in his own way, and it all flies out the window in his next appearence, with nothing happening to justify the complete switch.

It was the evil brain chakra all Uchiha suffer from acting up. :V
 
Sasuke's biggest crime was killing the samurai guards.

Meaning the leader of the samurai is the primary figure to pass judgement. "He killed some of my men... on the flip side, he saved every last of my other men and everyone we're sworn to protect," is his call.
 
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