The problem with Sauske Uchiha(And Shonen as a whole)

The difference between Vegeta and Sauske, is that even in Z no one but Goku, and maybe Gohan actually forgave him for the things he did, sure everyone else just kinda...moved on, but until the end of the Cell Games Arc, and midway through the Buu Arc
Funny thing is, aside from close aqcuaintances, people didn't just forget and forgive what Sasuke did either. They let him walk away because more than half the world's militaries just died and several maps have to be redrawn, which was followed by a ceaser-fire that let far more people than just Sasuke and Orochimaru get away with questionable bullshit.

Sasuke didn't just save the world, either. He went into self-imposed exile and have been working towards protecting said world from the end of Naruto all the way to the current events of Boruto. It's also obvious that the things he did wrecked him with guilt and will haunt him for the rest of his life, which is far more than can be said of dear old Vegeta.
 
I can't I say I disagree with OP since Naruto is the second anime that I despise the most (the first is DBZ), but Naruto's problems are hardly exclusive to Naruto alone, actually those problems exist in a lot of shounen and are the reason that I have a love and hate relationship with anime in general.
 
Sasuke is an expy of a much better character: Kurapika from HxH. Not terribly relevant but I wanted to say it.

Better character, but in some ways a worse person, and even then the reason Sasuke's worse is because Naruto's pacing was ridiculously fucking fast (which shouldn't have been possible considering it's length but it happened) and they built up to the confrontation way too fucking quickly.
 
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So the fact he tries to kill everyone is just going to be ignored huh?
Sasuke going crazy and murdering people around the kage summit was hardly portraying him as an anti-hero.

Also he willingly joined up with Orochimaru, and worked under him for the majority of Shippuden
Sasuke literally never does anything for Orochimaru. He gets training from him but explicitly did not do missions or kill for him. Then he kills him.
 
I've yet to see a competent expy of Sasuke; he's really got his own thing going, and while plenty of readers try to track other "rival" characters onto him (Bakugo comes to mind) I can't think of a shonen character since him who's so gracefully slid into the deuteragonist slot.

Edit: also I gotta say, the whole Kurapika meme, Sasuke is Kurapika if he actually had an interesting personality and an arc, lol. Granted, Togashi is still working on HxH as we speak (which I love so much I'm currently writing fanfiction for) and the Dark Continent arc has given Kurapika plenty to do, so maybe he'll come out the other end of the War of the Princes a more dynamic character, but as it stands, he's a very flat dude).

Edit edit: I was kinda excited for a "Problems in Shonen as a genre" thread and deeply disappointed to find it's just another paint by the numbers "Grr Sasuke sucks I don't like characters that experience regressive development." Guess that's what I get for having expectations above the water table.
 
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I've yet to see a competent expy of Sasuke; he's really got his own thing going, and while plenty of readers try to track other "rival" characters onto him (Bakugo comes to mind) I can't think of a shonen character since him who's so gracefully slid into the deuteragonist slot.

Edit: also I gotta say, the whole Kurapika meme, Sasuke is Kurapika if he actually had an interesting personality and an arc, lol. Granted, Togashi is still working on HxH as we speak (which I love so much I'm currently writing fanfiction for) and the Dark Continent arc has given Kurapika plenty to do, so maybe he'll come out the other end of the War of the Princes a more dynamic character, but as it stands, he's a very flat dude).

Edit edit: I was kinda excited for a "Problems in Shonen as a genre" thread and deeply disappointed to find it's just another paint by the numbers "Grr Sasuke sucks I don't like characters that experience regressive development." Guess that's what I get for having expectations above the water table.
Sasuke...has good character development ....Hahaha, are you serious?
Sauskes development is basically:
I want to kill my brother
I want to kill Naruto
I want to destroy Konoha
I want to be friends again after Naruto gave me the friendship speach.
 
Sasuke...has good character development ....Hahaha, are you serious?

I think he is, and for the records, I don't entirely disagree. At the very least, part 1 Sasuke is a pretty interesting character study. I'm less convinced about part 2 Sasuke - I mean, I can see what they were going for, but I don't think it was done particularly well.
 
While I personally can't say I watch a ton of modern anime it was my understanding that most Shonen anime now just copies SAO and AOT with a bunch of low effort copies of light novels. I mean Sasuke isn't exactly the first brooding pretty boy in anime and at the moment I see very few characters that match his character type. Most of the time they seem like dull and lifeless OP cypher to project yourself into who always overwhelm everyone in the show and have absolutely no development or weakness and just stomp the other characters in the setting. I could be wrong seeing as most of the anime was grindhouse hyper-violence from the early 90s so I'm a bit behind the times there.
 
Violation of Rule 4 - Spaghetti-posting
Sasuke...has good character development ....Hahaha, are you serious?
I mean, someone realizing that everything they knew is a lie and the following psychotic breakdown might not be for everybody. But it have that kind of appeal one gets from watching a trainwreck.
Sauskes development is basically:
From a myopic, biased perspective that ignore details in a sad attempt at making a point, you mean.
And even then, it must have done something right. Considering several fanfic writers like to put whatever they are replacing Naruto with through the same kind of "development" you talk about.
Let's go through this point by point.
I want to kill my brother
For betraying and taking away my family and everything I held dear, with the implicit threat of coming back to finish me off later.
I want to kill Naruto
Because he kept getting in the way of my business despite the fact I made it pretty clear I don't want anything to do with him.

Also, I chickened out after the first attempt. For several reasons.
I want to destroy Konoha
For betraying and taking away my family and everything I held dear, making me believe it was my dear brother's fault.
I want to be friends again after Naruto gave me the friendship speach.
After I went through a journey to figure out the truth and sort out my feelings over all the shit going on in my life. After we fought things so powerful they make most mortal concerns look petty in comparasion and then got into a brawl that lasted the best part of a day with an idiot that would not let me ruin my own life in a misguided attempt at imposing peace upon the world.
 
I actually really like Sasuke early on. I thought he was cool, badass, the perfect foil to Naruto. But that pre-Shippuden, and much of my view of Sasuke is very negative. The man went on to fucked up his own country and was just like, accepted back willy nilly by Naruto. I understand friendship and all, but when your former brother does these things, he's no longer your fellow brother.

Idk enough about Boruto to say anything about him though. Did he get better?
 
Well the show says he becomes an absentee father, but being a shitty parent is sort of his and Naruto's shtick.
Good fathers seem to be incredibly rare in that setting. Naruto's was dead. Sasuke's was an evil shithead, and also dead. Gaara's was an evil shithead. Hinata's dad is just bad at being a father, no actual evilness required. Neji's is dead. Hell, I think the only person we see with a good father is Choji.
 
I actually really like Sasuke early on. I thought he was cool, badass, the perfect foil to Naruto. But that pre-Shippuden, and much of my view of Sasuke is very negative. The man went on to fucked up his own country and was just like, accepted back willy nilly by Naruto. I understand friendship and all, but when your former brother does these things, he's no longer your fellow brother.

Idk enough about Boruto to say anything about him though. Did he get better?
Sasuke never really fucked up Konoha. After his defection, the only crime he ever committed against them was killing Danzo, and that's generally agreed to be a good thing.

Otherwise, he mostly fights and kills other enemies of Konoha. Orochimaru, Deidara, etc.

Generally, it's very hard to say Sasuke's crimes outweigh the good things he did, and that's not even counting the whole World Saving thing

In Boruto, Sasuke is a the father of one of the main characters, but is frequently absent because he's on missions to protect the world from destruction. When he is home, he's a decent if imperfect father. And also very respectful of Naruto
 
I mean, someone realizing that everything they knew is a lie and the following psychotic breakdown might not be for everybody. But it have that kind of appeal one gets from watching a trainwreck.

From a myopic, biased perspective that ignore details in a sad attempt at making a point, you mean.
And even then, it must have done something right. Considering several fanfic writers like to put whatever they are replacing Naruto with through the same kind of "development" you talk about.
Let's go through this point by point.

For betraying and taking away my family and everything I held dear, with the implicit threat of coming back to finish me off later.
Given that said family was planning a coup, Itachi had a reason for what he did, though it was stupid of him to leave only Sauske alive when his orders were to kill everyone, which is why I hate Itachi as well, it's like his incestuous feelings got in the way or something


Because he kept getting in the way of my business despite the fact I made it pretty clear I don't want anything to do with him.
So that's a valid reason to kill someone huh?

Also, I chickened out after the first attempt. For several reasons.
Yes the first attempt, didn't stop him from doing it later

For betraying and taking away my family and everything I held dear, making me believe it was my dear brother's fault.
First off that was Danzo, not the entirety of Konoha, who took away his family and he had reason to do what he did, as horrible as it may sound.

After I went through a journey to figure out the truth and sort out my feelings over all the shit going on in my life. After we fought things so powerful they make most mortal concerns look petty in comparasion and then got into a brawl that lasted the best part of a day with an idiot that would not let me ruin my own life in a misguided attempt at imposing peace upon the world.
You mean after his attempt at becoming a dictator, oh sorry , "Hokage", so he could shove his ideologies down everyone's throats

Most of the time when people try to defend Sauske is that they bring his whole dark and troubling past, and yes while its sad for Sauske it doesn't automatically excuse him from the things he did, Naruto had a shitty life, Kakashi had a shitty life, Neji had a shitty life, but none of them went and tried to destroy everything that was built and attempt to become a dictator, forcing what he thinks is right, and ignoring/ attempting to kill certain people, right after destroying a god.

But, But, he's reacting like any teenager would!

Then please explain to me why Naruto, who was constantly struggling to survive in a place where almost everyone despised his existence and would rather have him dead, didn't join defect at any moment and tried his damndest to prove himself, never went down the same road as Sauske.
 
You mean after his attempt at becoming a dictator, oh sorry , "Hokage", so he could shove his ideologies down everyone's throats

Most of the time when people try to defend Sauske is that they bring his whole dark and troubling past, and yes while its sad for Sauske it doesn't automatically excuse him from the things he did, Naruto had a shitty life, Kakashi had a shitty life, Neji had a shitty life, but none of them went and tried to destroy everything that was built and attempt to become a dictator, forcing what he thinks is right, and ignoring/ attempting to kill certain people, right after destroying a god.

But, But, he's reacting like any teenager would!

Then please explain to me why Naruto, who was constantly struggling to survive in a place where almost everyone despised his existence and would rather have him dead, didn't join defect at any moment and tried his damndest to prove himself, never went down the same road as Sauske.
Because Naruto didn't have his personal equivalent of the Devil himself show up and show him that all his efforts to prove himself were worthless, and then force him to relive his greatest trauma
 
Because Naruto didn't have his personal equivalent of the Devil himself show up and show him that all his efforts to prove himself were worthless, and then force him to relive his greatest trauma

By the way, am I alone in thinking that Itachi was a great villain, but utterly terrible at being a good guy?
 
By the way, am I alone in thinking that Itachi was a great villain, but utterly terrible at being a good guy?
I thought the reveal that he was a good guy all along was one of if not the biggest misstep of the entire story. He was an effective and interesting villain, but fairly bland and over idealized hero. A villain who was so driven to find a worthy rival and a good fight that he destroyed and killed everything around him and was so bored with most fights he barely put any effort in was interesting and tragic and gave a pretty dark look at the fact that Naruto is about children put in life or death struggles and how that might impact them. As a hero he was just this super patriotic pacifist who was so pure and loving his own parents praised him for murdering them. It ruined any nuance the character had.
 
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Sasuke...has good character development ....Hahaha, are you serious?
Yeah, he does. Sasuke is an incredibly dynamic character who's constantly reacting and developing over the course of the manga. Through his actions, you get an extremely complete "map" of what kind of person he is, and most impressively the internal logic that governs his actions becomes very plain to see, despite the manga almost never dropping inside his head and making his thoughts explicit like it does with many, many other characters.

That's like, Good Character Development 101. If you want to create someone who organically changes over the course of the story, Sasuke is a great example.
Then please explain to me why Naruto, who was constantly struggling to survive in a place where almost everyone despised his existence and would rather have him dead, didn't join defect at any moment and tried his damndest to prove himself, never went down the same road as Sauske.
I understand that despite appearances, you're not stupid, you just haven't read the manga in what is probably years, and when you were reading it, you weren't paying that much attention, so I'll try to help you out here. One of the main crux's of Naruto is highlighting the differences between Naruto and Sasuke and explaining why they took the paths they did, and why they ended up diametrically opposed. They're extremely similar people despite appearances (which is why they're naturally drawn to each other).

Naruto's a very canny guy: there's a good reason he acknowledges (and Sasuke later agrees, when he's more reasonable) that if some things had changed, their positions might have been reversed by the Kage Summit.

They start out with very different goals that both revolve around becoming stronger: Naruto wants to become Hokage (first to get the Village's acknowledgement, and later to protect it), and Sasuke wants to kill Itachi. Both those things can't be achieved by anything but improving as a shinobi. And they both rapidly, rapidly improve, but where Naruto (with significant difficulty) meets success after success (especially in Sasuke's eyes, since he's not there to see most of Naruto's failures, like getting nearly killed by Kabuto), Sasuke keeps getting kicked while he's down.


Which sends his self esteem (mind you, he was already subtly suicidal, so going farther down from that isn't exactly a good thing, lmao) plummeting below the fucking earth. As soon as he wakes up from his Second Tsukuyomi, he challenges Naruto to a duel on the hospital's rooftop, trying to gauge if his suspicion is correct: if the Dead Last in the academy really has become better than him in so short a time, even though Sasuke's ambition is dead serious, and Naruto's is patently ridiculous.

It's a mutual fight, and a way of showing respect, but Naruto completely misreads the situation, and acts like an arrogant asshole throughout it (as Part 1 Naruto usually does in what he perceives as normal social situations), completely confident that he'll win. This, combined with Itachi not noticing Sasuke at all in their last meeting (solely there to kidnap Naruto), just rubs dirt in the wound.


(what a little shit you were, Naruto)

What makes it worse is that Naruto constantly escalates the fight: first bringing out Shadow Clones, and then when Sasuke pops those with a fireball, a Rasengan, which forces Sasuke to escalate to the Chidori. And worst off all, when Kakashi interrupts them and they end up hitting two water towers with their jutsu:


Absolute proof in Sasuke's mind that Naruto's overtaken him, despite starting out much, much weaker, with a dumber dream and less natural talent. The Sound Four arrive soon afterwards and bully the fuck out of him, telling him that they were useless before they went to Orochimaru and he gave them their powers; that, combined with the influence of the Curse Seal, is what makes Sasuke decide that leaving and going to Orochimaru will make him strong enough to take on his brother, despite Kakashi's attempt to steer him away.

It's obviously an incredible difficult decision though, considering that it takes him nearly a month to leave.

Sasuke's breaking lasts through pretty much the entirety of Part 1, where constantly getting shit on ends up making him take rash, short-sighted actions to reach his goal quicker. We see the same thing happen to Naruto in Part 2, when he goes up against Nagato.

Nagato takes Jiraiya, Kakashi, Fukasaku, and Hinata from him, all while showing him just how weak he really is (sounds very similar to Sasuke, how strange. How especially strange it is that only after this does Naruto really claim to understand Part 2 Sasuke, and understand the consequences of trying to bring him back (it's not that strange)). How does Naruto react?



Whoops. Naruto comes within literal centimeters of tearing the Nine-Tails seal off, which would have killed him, destroyed Konoha, and then who knows, probably fucked off. The only reason he doesn't manage it is because his dad programmed a literal "Hug In Case Of Emergency" button into the seal (smart guy), and the only reason he's not still shattered afterwards is because Pain rewards his fulfillment of Jiraiya's ambitions with a village-wide resurrection. If Sasuke had had one of those, never mind both, he certainly never would have gotten as crazy as he did by the Kage Summit.

So... that's why Naruto and Sasuke ended up traveling different (but rhyming) paths, despite their similar starting positions.
 
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By the way, am I alone in thinking that Itachi was a great villain, but utterly terrible at being a good guy?
One of my major problems with Naruto is actually Itachi as a good guy. Not him doing the Uchiha Massacre for his village or to maintain peace but that he's treated as some luminary of good afterwards. Itachi is a tragic and inevitable result of the ninja system and Konoha's flaws. Itachi is a deeply traumatized teenager stuck between a rock and a world war. He has to make horrific decisions and they aren't always the right ones.

He should have been painted as tragic not as heroic later on. Funnily enough only Itachi and Sasuke seem to really grasp onto that idea.

So... that's why Naruto and Sasuke ended up traveling different (but rhyming) paths, despite their similar starting positions.
They also come to basically the same conclusion. "The current system is failing, I have the strength to change it, I'll unite the villages with [bonds of friendship]/[opposition to me]."
 
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