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The Path to Winter (GoT/Worm Multicross)

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Paloswag said:
If you give other people shards, please no tinkers! They would break the setting.
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Here is the problem with adding Tinkers to GoT: you can't. The technological level of the setting doesn't allow for such beings as Tinkers to flourish, thus their own shards would end up killing their hosts due to a lack of ability to invent(out of their respective stolen technological archives from dead races, none of which are magical).

As for others getting powers, I agree that it should happen and would add to the story instead of subtracting from it. Personally I would think someone from Reach should get Taylor's power, while Daenerys Stormborn would be better fit with a more watered down version of one of the following: Tattletale's Shard, Über's Shard, Lung's Shard(only in here because it would be fitting despite it being a cliché), Dauntless's Shard, Burnscar's Shard, potentially(though highly discouraged) Crawler's Shard, Rune's Shard, or Panacea's Shard. Personally I am leaning towards Dauntless's or Über's Shard, as they would be both useful without causing immediate OP on all she meets(personally Nilbog's was up for consideration if altered, but I think it would have freaked out more people than the other two).

Both would work within the settings available(with Dauntless's power slowly building over time would keep her from being too rash while also providing her a subtle boost in power that others wouldn't realize until it was too late) and keep things interesting with the new additions to the world without having to have Robb sit on her by setting into motion some obscure plan.
 
Bran is CLEARLY made for the Administrator Shard!

And because of his natural Greenseer abilities thrown into the mix, well...

Seeing visions of the Future/Present/Past gets a lot easier when you can piggyback multiple minds in order interpret their meaning!
 
LukeDragneel said:
Here is the problem with adding Tinkers to GoT: you can't. The technological level of the setting doesn't allow for such beings as Tinkers to flourish, thus their own shards would end up killing their hosts due to a lack of ability to invent(out of their respective stolen technological archives from dead races, none of which are magical).
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Oh, right, we forgot that it's impossible to invent anything with technology level below the industrial revolution. That's why the Alien Space Bats needed to teach people everything to get them from the stone age to the industrial revolution.
 
nainale said:
Well, it seems that you already got your answer: please continue !

One thing, PtV is overpowered on ANY setting, but that depends on the wording used while choosing your Path. And lets say that Rob is not the sharpest mind on Westeros.
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That's not really fair. Robb's not an idiot, he's just not trained/adept in the areas that killed him.

If you want to use CK stats, he's something like Good Martial, Decent Stewardship, Poor Diplomacy, Poor Intrigue. He really is his parents' child, with all the faults that entails. Ned get gacked because of his Poor Intrigue, Robb gets it because of Poor Diplomacy shared with his mother.
 
The title of King of the North is too big for him. Weak points ? thats why a good leader keep experts at hand; as far as i can remember he does not make much use of the people at his call and make several huge mistakes, the kind that he can't afford. I'm relaying from memory so i could be wrong about this, offcourse.

Anyway, I think that is the combination of his father's honour and his mother's naivety that really condems him. That and not honouring his commitments to his allies because he can't keep it in his pants. If he would have been a bit more mature or experienced things would have gone better for him. The same can be said about everyone on that series...

Damm, that came a bit more agressive that it sounded on my head. :jackiechan:

Well, one of the things i hope to see on this fic is his grown as a person more than parahuman curbstomps; it has now a huge potential.
 
LukeDragneel said:
Here is the problem with adding Tinkers to GoT: you can't. The technological level of the setting doesn't allow for such beings as Tinkers to flourish.
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Think outside the box.

Shards adapt to the host. Think of Leonardo da Vinci and other inventors of old. Tinker shards in pseudo-medieval period wouldn't be as impressive, as in modern period, but they're not impossible.

Also, if what we have here, specifically, is not a stray shardfall, but a full time intervention of Abbadon, don't you think, Entity can remove some restrictions from shards to help Tinkers one way or another?
 
ETA50M said:
Not familiar with Worm but this PTV sounds epic.
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Spectrum said:
PTV=Path To Victory is a parahuman power that more or less takes control and guides the user through the exact steps to accomplishing a provided goal, pretty much without fail. It's about as busted as it sounds.
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PtV is an interesting power.

On the one hand, it's completely broken and inspires endless streams of "why don't you do X?"

On the other hand, it allows the author exceptional freedom/creativity.

In the hands of an antagonist, it's a nearly insurmountable obstacle that always wins in some unexplained manner off-screen.

In the hands of a main character, it brings up the question: "Assuming victory is possible, what would it look like?"

Keep in mind, Rob still only has normal human abilities, and a normal human can't be expected to defeat dozens of trained soldiers in combat.
Setting his own pants on fire isn't something that would occur normally, but maybe it would make people run away from the crazy-burning-pants-man.

Also keep in mind, the PtV only gives paths to things he thinks to ask it... and it doesn't tell him if the ultimate goal itself is a bad idea.
It also only presents one path, even if there are many possible solutions.

Finally, there might be things that can't be "seen" by the PtV, depending on author interpretation.
 
Why is nobody commenting on the "Multicross" part of the title?

It implies that there's something else in the crossover, not only Worm or GoT.
 
iIf there's a hint to whatever the "Multicross" applies to within the chapter it went over my head. There will be Doormaker powers in someone's future perhaps?

I'm quite curious about where, if at all, this falls on the Worm timeline (an independent AU could be a good thing), even though I'm only aware of GoT in passing.

If this is a result of Eden's DUI accident would mean that PTV for some reason went to Robb instead of Fortuna... Which is either the best or the worst thing that could have happened, both for Planetos, and Earth Bet.

Upsides: Robb has the superior post-Abaddon PTV that Eden upgraded but never nerfed, making Robb a guaranteed Entity-killer, and likely the same for ice zombies, fire-oriented deities, etc. He can almost certainly forge new Valyrian Steel using it too. That is unless magic is OCP for shards.

No Cauldron for Earth Bet. No Cauldron Cape, no Case 53s. No Eidolon, Alexandria, Coil, Grey Boy, or Siberian, and at least none of the canon Endbringers. No Travellers twofold as a result, so no Echidna, and Sphere never goes off the rails. That's almost every major antagonist from Worm eliminated. The only way it could get better would be if somehow all of these things conspired to prevent Jack triggering... which it might because probably Simurgh plot.

Downsides: Eden lives. It seems highly unlikely that Doctor Mother could gank her without Fortuna's involvement.

Very eager to see where this story goes, even if Worm canon has no place within it. :)
 
@Firkraag
Well, I did say "if". It was based on the assumption that PTV didn't exist until Eden made it from Abaddon's OP precog shard, but I may be remembering wrong.

Even if I'm not, there's nothing to say that a different Entity somewhere else in the multiverse didn't create a PTV-like shard at some point. Might even be a certainty, really.
On that note, these Entities may have intentionally dropped PTV as a normal shard for their cycle? That could say disturbing things about the the shards they held back.
 
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Spectrum said:
That's not really fair. Robb's not an idiot, he's just not trained/adept in the areas that killed him.

If you want to use CK stats, he's something like Good Martial, Decent Stewardship, Poor Diplomacy, Poor Intrigue. He really is his parents' child, with all the faults that entails. Ned get gacked because of his Poor Intrigue, Robb gets it because of Poor Diplomacy shared with his mother.
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Not really. Rob got killed because, when forced to choose between breaking two promises, one given after careful consideration of its impact and while alert and in his right mind, and the other in a spur of the moment while wounded and probably drugged to numb the pain and under the influence of grief...Rob chose to honor the later promise and break the former - the exact opposite of what the honorable thing to do would have been.

The fact that every logical and realpolitic argument agreed that he did the wrong thing just illustrates even more how stupid he was.

Firkraag said:
Think outside the box.
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No need for that. Tinkers get technology which is more advanced than anyone else around has, there's no reason they can't get that regardless of what the technology around them is.

Blaflaix said:
Keep in mind, Rob still only has normal human abilities, and a normal human can't be expected to defeat dozens of trained soldiers in combat.
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Nope. with PtV Rob, or anyone else in decent physical condition could defeat dozens of trained soldiers at once since PtV would allow him to manuver so they'd get in each other's way while presenting a perfect defense and getting every opening anyone left in their defences.

Blaflaix said:
Also keep in mind, the PtV only gives paths to things he thinks to ask it... and it doesn't tell him if the ultimate goal itself is a bad idea.
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True, and more importantly it presents the quickest path to complete the task, not the best. Basically if you asked for a path to stop your headache it might tell you to jump head first out of a high-story window :) . This is partly mitigated by the fact that (at least in canon) it told you what all the steps were.
 
TheUnicorn said:
Nope. with PtV Rob, or anyone else in decent physical condition could defeat dozens of trained soldiers at once since PtV would allow him to manuver so they'd get in each other's way while presenting a perfect defense and getting every opening anyone left in their defences.
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Yes, assuming there exists a set of movements to avoid a lethal/crippling injury and win the battle, PtV will find it.

So how many trained, armed and unified soldiers does it take before there is no safe action?
How many soldiers will he kill before he falls over from exhaustion?

One of the limitations of the PtV is the limitations of the person using it.
The corresponding limitation is how much time it takes to succeed. (Path to Victory: 10 million years.... dammit)

The point I was making in my example is that there is a limit to what PtV can do in a crude contest of strength or skill.
Even if he fights his way out of the castle with pure sword-work, eventually he will face challenges that require more creative solutions, like setting his own pants on fire.

So the author isn't writing a story: "He faced an army, killed them all with a dagger, the end. Path to Victory wins!"
 
Blaflaix said:
So the author isn't writing a story: "He faced an army, killed them all with a dagger, the end. Path to Victory wins!"
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No, if the army is very big PtV will likely have him do stuff like negotiate a temporary truce and then convince the army commanders to turn on each other, or if he just wants the army gone not dead it might have him murder 50-100 soldiers in an especially spectacular and frightening fashion, causing the rest of them to flee in terror.

Unless there are precog blindspots in play the eventual outcome is not in doubt: Robb does whatever the hell he wants. If there are blindspots for people to exploit he probably still does whatever he wants by modelling hypotheticals, but at least it's theoretically possible for him to lose.
 
TheUnicorn said:
Not really. Rob got killed because, when forced to choose between breaking two promises, one given after careful consideration of its impact and while alert and in his right mind, and the other in a spur of the moment while wounded and probably drugged to numb the pain and under the influence of grief...Rob chose to honor the later promise and break the former - the exact opposite of what the honorable thing to do would have been.

The fact that every logical and realpolitic argument agreed that he did the wrong thing just illustrates even more how stupid he was.
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That's a gross simplification of how and why Robb died. If he had been better capable at managing his vassals and not making the wrong decisions there, fucking up Diplomatically (and even the choice itself you highlight would fall under there) would have been manageable. But when he's already pissed off one major vassal and one is known to be questionably loyal, well...
 
It could in fact be Abbadon alone, dropping off the PTV shard out of its own volition.

Abbadon did have it before it gave it to Eden, and who knows what Abbadon got up to in the potential gajillion years it was bumming around by itself before bumping into Eden/Zion.
 
Spectrum said:
That's a gross simplification of how and why Robb died. If he had been better capable at managing his vassals and not making the wrong decisions there, fucking up Diplomatically (and even the choice itself you highlight would fall under there) would have been manageable. But when he's already pissed off one major vassal and one is known to be questionably loyal, well...
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A few points to add in column; what the hell Robb.

  • Giving in to peer pressure regarding the whole 'King' business. He may have been barely more than a teenager, but even he must see that it would mean endless warfare. Accepting the fealty of the Riverlander Lords was just the icing on the cake. What was the plan? Keep 80% of all his men in the South...forever?
  • Not punishing his mother when she freed the Kingslayer. This could have been as light as: go home to my brothers, here take a few dozen men. Cat was paranoid enough to keep the Master of Arms of Winterfell from using 95% of all his forces. Nor would she just 'trust' a bastard.
  • Trusting Theon Greyjoy. Not only is he the scion of a House that your people had an ancient rivalry with...he grew up under the sword of fucking Damocles. Robb's father, at some point, might have been forced to kill him. He was a hostage. I can't blame this too much on Robb, because Ned never stepped in when it became obvious that Robb was favoring Theon over Jon.
  • Keeping an 'Honor Guard' and not stocking it with your best fighters. Keeping a handful of heirs around is fine, but ffs make them bring at least five decent swordsmen each.
  • Not being clear with his orders to his Tully uncle. Under this header; don't blame your underlings (especially those that were your equal a few short months ago) for your own mistakes. I wouldn't have been surprised if Edmure just went quiet and said 'As you will, my Lord.'
  • Not sending Brynden Tully to go sort out the Vale nonsense. He's an excellent commander, sure, but he had access to a whole host of Lords that have seen two and some of them three wars. What he didn't have were many more men that were respected in the Vale and a relative of his nutso Aunt.
  • At some point you have to wonder; can I get my sisters back? From the fortified city? To which if I march they will die near instantly? Especially now Jaime is gone?
  • How difficult would it have been to send at least the Manderlys home and charge them to go scour the North of Ironborns. Dude had a younger brother he could have sold.
 
Blaflaix said:
Yes, assuming there exists a set of movements to avoid a lethal/crippling injury and win the battle, PtV will find it.

So how many trained, armed and unified soldiers does it take before there is no safe action?
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As long as they're all armed with swords? Infinity.

Blaflaix said:
How many soldiers will he kill before he falls over from exhaustion?
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Dozens certainly, hundreds maybe. Except of course that people wouldn't keep rushing into the meat grinder like that.

Blaflaix said:
One of the limitations of the PtV is the limitations of the person using it.
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True, and Rob sticking around to fight those dozens of swordsmen would be an example of him being an idiot.

The corresponding limitation is how much time it takes to succeed. (Path to Victory: 10 million years.... dammit)

Blaflaix said:
Even if he fights his way out of the castle with pure sword-work, eventually he will face challenges that require more creative solutions, like setting his own pants on fire.
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Point.

Spectrum said:
That's a gross simplification of how and why Robb died.
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True, and also describing it in the worst possible terms. I just get sick and tired of people describing his decision as choosing honor over realpolitic when both choices required him to break his word.
 
Sir Rabby said:
A few points to add in column; what the hell Robb.

  • Giving in to peer pressure regarding the whole 'King' business. He may have been barely more than a teenager, but even he must see that it would mean endless warfare. Accepting the fealty of the Riverlander Lords was just the icing on the cake. What was the plan? Keep 80% of all his men in the South...forever?
  • Not punishing his mother when she freed the Kingslayer. This could have been as light as: go home to my brothers, here take a few dozen men. Cat was paranoid enough to keep the Master of Arms of Winterfell from using 95% of all his forces. Nor would she just 'trust' a bastard.
  • Trusting Theon Greyjoy. Not only is he the scion of a House that your people had an ancient rivalry with...he grew up under the sword of fucking Damocles. Robb's father, at some point, might have been forced to kill him. He was a hostage. I can't blame this too much on Robb, because Ned never stepped in when it became obvious that Robb was favoring Theon over Jon.
  • Keeping an 'Honor Guard' and not stocking it with your best fighters. Keeping a handful of heirs around is fine, but ffs make them bring at least five decent swordsmen each.
  • Not being clear with his orders to his Tully uncle. Under this header; don't blame your underlings (especially those that were your equal a few short months ago) for your own mistakes. I wouldn't have been surprised if Edmure just went quiet and said 'As you will, my Lord.'
  • Not sending Brynden Tully to go sort out the Vale nonsense. He's an excellent commander, sure, but he had access to a whole host of Lords that have seen two and some of them three wars. What he didn't have were many more men that were respected in the Vale and a relative of his nutso Aunt.
  • At some point you have to wonder; can I get my sisters back? From the fortified city? To which if I march they will die near instantly? Especially now Jaime is gone?
  • How difficult would it have been to send at least the Manderlys home and charge them to go scour the North of Ironborns. Dude had a younger brother he could have sold.
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So basically he made all the wrong choices out of battle.
 
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