The Ontario Motorist's Guide to the Kingdom of Tristain

No, it really doesn't. given mages the might be able to duplicate an internal combustion engine, but there isn't really any way that a car would help them mage a steam engine, much less a train.
No, I'm not saying that the actual car engine will teach them about the steam engine used in trains.
I'm saying that the concept of using fuel to power a simple machine to produce forward movement instead of relying on animals will help lead to that idea.
Though Furiko actually knowing what trains are would probably help the matter.
 
Tristain is kind of absurdly top-heavy. 1 in 10 people are mages, if I'm remembering correctly, and it's a popular belief that 'magic is the proof of nobility'.

1 noble for every 10 peasants, and each of those nobles is legitimately superhuman. There's no way there's enough land for all of them considering the Vallieres alone have vast estates, so maybe it's more like in the sense of medieval knights were landless nobles of a sort? Having an expensive buy-in for horse and armor is probably similar enough to wand and magic education that the simile barely holds up...

AIUI medieval Poland had a similar proportion of low-level nobles.

Also, the Vallieres have a vast estate, yes, but Louise's father is a duke - which is the highest rank of nobility. It could easily be the case that the majority of nobles don't own much more property than a typical American homeowner, or maybe just a few acres.

No, I'm not saying that the actual car engine will teach them about the steam engine used in trains.

There are huge differences... though there are some important similarities, the use of expanding gases to push a piston, and the conversion of reciprocal motion to turning a wheel. Steam engines are a lot simpler, though.
 
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AIUI medieval Poland had a similar proportion of low-level nobles.

Also, the Vallieres have a vast estate, yes, but Louise's father is a duke - which is the highest rank of nobility. It could easily be the case that the majority of nobles don't own much more property than a typical American homeowner, or maybe just a few acres.
In addition, not all of these nobles individually own land. For the most part, it's going to be noble families owning land, not individual nobles.
 
Granted IC engines (especially modern ones) are more mechanically precise and require much tighter tolerances, but that has nothing to do with the composition of the fuel.
This was more what I was thinking. I don't expect them to be able to build an IC engine through anything but alchemy for quite some time.
 
Tristain is kind of absurdly top-heavy. 1 in 10 people are mages, if I'm remembering correctly, and it's a popular belief that 'magic is the proof of nobility'...

Louise's family is close enough to the crown that if something happened to Henrietta, her father could end up king, you can't take them as representative. Or even anyone who would go to the same school as her as anything but the elite of the elite.

Low level nobles canonically have jobs doing things like using fire magic to destroy rubbish or earth magic to make fields fallow.

Tristain is the country with the most mages per capita, though.
 
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I wish they hadn't used the word 'nobility' to describe all people with magic, then. When I think of landed nobility, or even 'working nobility', it's not working the fields or smithery or whatever.
 
First, I'm happy to note I'm not the only one who manages to screw up quotes, the second quote should be me, not Lareko.

Well, my original intention was for them to come up with some local equivalent of diesel-electric trains, but the part of the idea I was most interested in was the train part of the idea. Y'know, the bit where there's a story as opposed to a manual.

Then have them come up because Magda told them about trains (I believe Colvert already has a model steam engine) or have them powered by a gasoline IC engine if you need Colvert to get something for the train from studying Magda's car.

Communism is entirely the wrong flavour for the setting.

No argument.

1 noble for every 10 peasants, and each of those nobles is legitimately superhuman. There's no way there's enough land for all of them considering the Vallieres alone have vast estates, so maybe it's more like in the sense of medieval knights were landless nobles of a sort? Having an expensive buy-in for horse and armor is probably similar enough to wand and magic education that the simile barely holds up...

A few points to keep in mind:
1)Ukraine had in the Early Modern period a similar percentage of nobles.
2)Many nobles in Tristain take over what were upper middle craft jobs in RL, because the way Tristain is setup they need magic for those.
3)Tristain does not seem to have the "Nobles may not work or engage in trade" law Europe had in real life so could support much higher percentage of nobles.

I'm saying that the concept of using fuel to power a simple machine to produce forward movement instead of relying on animals will help lead to that idea.

I don't think that would be a new concept. Not even historically, much less in a setup with windstones and the like.

Though Furiko actually knowing what trains are would probably help the matter.

True.

This was more what I was thinking. I don't expect them to be able to build an IC engine through anything but alchemy for quite some time.

You'd be amazed at the sort of precision a skilled craftsman can produce with hand tools given enough time - just don't expect the parts to be interchangeable. On the other hand I'm pretty sure it's canon that Mages in the setting can't do precision - a very obvious excuse to stop the many "why don't they just..." from the fans.

I wish they hadn't used the word 'nobility' to describe all people with magic, then. When I think of landed nobility, or even 'working nobility', it's not working the fields or smithery or whatever.

It's the right word, it's just that the lower nobility is more like what you'd find in Eastern Europe than western Europe - despite other aspects of the culture fitting western Europe.
 
Then have them come up because Magda told them about trains (I believe Colvert already has a model steam engine) or have them powered by a gasoline IC engine if you need Colvert to get something for the train from studying Magda's car.

I think it was actually a model internal combustion engine with no timing capability (i.e. he has to manually create fire in each chamber in turn). Anyway, a steam engine is simpler, because you only need valves for the timing rather than a repeated source of ignition, and Magda probably has enough of the basic concept to be able to explain it and have Colbert develop it further.

You'd be amazed at the sort of precision a skilled craftsman can produce with hand tools given enough time - just don't expect the parts to be interchangeable. On the other hand I'm pretty sure it's canon that Mages in the setting can't do precision - a very obvious excuse to stop the many "why don't they just..." from the fans.

I thought the issue was the quality of metal they could make.
 
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Well, my original intention was for them to come up with some local equivalent of diesel-electric trains, but the part of the idea I was most interested in was the train part of the idea. Y'know, the bit where there's a story as opposed to a manual.
I've always felt that a well-done steam train can easily be a character in its own right. They can have moods, from grumpy and cranky to eager and playful. Just watch this (fullscreen and HD if you can) and try telling me it doesn't seem more like a living, breathing thing than just a machine:

 
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I wish they hadn't used the word 'nobility' to describe all people with magic, then. When I think of landed nobility, or even 'working nobility', it's not working the fields or smithery or whatever.
Most anime fans don't care about the distinction between aristocracy and gentry and would only be confused by bringing it up in the series.
 
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More importantly, I don't think the distinction exists in Japanese.
Well... nobility in Japan used to derive from a combination of 'degrees of perceived blood relation to Emperor Jimmu (legendary first emperor, grandson of the Sun Goddess)' and 'delicacy of character' - you know, ancestry and talent for the arty hipster crap that the Heian court adored to bits. Usually they're the ones with the actual titles and such, but after the Taira vs Minamoto feud of the twelfth century, that's about all they had.

As the samurai class rose in prominence, that idea of 'nobility through divine ancestry and patronage of the arts' never fully went away, but you'd be hard-pressed to say the less-divine and generally less-cultured samurai didn't count as noble to one extent or another under a Western definition; there's a reason missionaries referred to the shogun as the Emperor of Japan and the actual emperor as the Pope of Japan. High-ranked military families owned a lot of the land, they invested capital in the nation's maintenance and in the maintenance of their own vast wealth, they raised their daughters to be diplomats and accountants, they raised their sons to be strategists and administrators, and when they murdered some peasant it was more of a social scandal than a legal matter. Hell, the Tokugawa even instituted a much-less-ridiculous version of the Versailles system in order to keep the samurai in line (basically every nobleman had to house his wife and family in the capital, and he could only go home to administer his lands in person in alternating years).

During the belated Industrial Revolution that the Meiji Restoration kicked off, it became (after much outrage) socially acceptable for businessmen to become ludicrously wealthy, which several of them promptly did. And in the post-WWII era, after the US military made a point of scouring out most of the more authentic or alarming (to them) bits of samurai culture, this Benihana Bourgeoisie is where one turns to to find the source of the 'magnificent princes' of anime fame; high-strung young men whose families, in many cases lacking a samurai heritage or divine antecedents, have striven to make their children more noble than the nobles - often by amalgamating Japanese ideals of nobility with Western ones. There are still a few families of noble descent in Japan today, it's just that most of them had to drop down to the 'oodles of money but no land and titles' class, or even just plain middle class, over time, in order to survive.

So... that kind of got away from me. ._.; Um, I think my point was that in my view, you're more likely to see characters you could classify as gentry in a story set post- or during the Taisho Period, and you're more likely to see what Westerners would consider nobles in stories set during and before the Edo Period.

Occasionally you do get to see gentry in stuff specifically about the Meiji Restoration - I'd classify most of the main cast of Hakuouki as gentry; Hijikata is a self-taught swordsman from an undefined background, but Saito and especially Okita are from eminently respectable families.

Edit: How the hell did I think Jimmu's name was Temmu? Ugh, fixed.
 
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Also, the Vallieres have a vast estate, yes, but Louise's father is a duke - which is the highest rank of nobility. It could easily be the case that the majority of nobles don't own much more property than a typical American homeowner, or maybe just a few acres.
Something I was considering in the writing of this, actually. By Tristainian standards, the term 'gentry' applied to my father's family is not that far off at all.
 
Yeah, that was what i was referring to. The Aristocracy are the ruling caste, the Gentry are the military/bureaucratic caste. Both can be thought of as "noble" and the demarcation between the two may be fuzzy, but the former is generally much more concerned with descent and bloodline, while the later tends to focus more on your ability to stab people in the face.

lots of fic writers contend that while the Valiere line of her husband is the highest aristocracy, Karin is from the gentry.
 
Though Furiko actually knowing what trains are would probably help the matter.
I enjoy riding in trains, and I would probably find the way they work to be interesting, but no, I don't understand any modern conveniences well enough to explain them, besides the bare bones.

It always strikes me as somewhat overly convenient that so many people who end up in these situations do. I mean really, Tintin or the Connecticut Yankee anticipating a solar eclipse or Ash being a Chemistry geek is one thing, those are comedies (and Tintin is a fucking boss), and Napoleon in Emperor of Zero is just being Napoleon. But there are so many serious fanfics about people tryin' to 'modernize' Tristain and succeeding to a greater or lesser extent. It's absurd.
 
I enjoy riding in trains, and I would probably find the way they work to be interesting, but no, I don't understand any modern conveniences well enough to explain them, besides the bare bones.

It always strikes me as somewhat overly convenient that so many people who end up in these situations do. I mean really, Tintin or the Connecticut Yankee anticipating a solar eclipse or Ash being a Chemistry geek is one thing, those are comedies (and Tintin is a fucking boss), and Napoleon in Emperor of Zero is just being Napoleon. But there are so many serious fanfics about people tryin' to 'modernize' Tristain and succeeding to a greater or lesser extent. It's absurd.
The way I see it, people were able to figure out these things through pure trial-and-error in the first place. All you need is a sufficiently intelligent person and a grade-school understanding of how to do it, and that should let them skip over most of the wrong ways to do it.
 
I enjoy riding in trains, and I would probably find the way they work to be interesting, but no, I don't understand any modern conveniences well enough to explain them, besides the bare bones.

It's not like Tristain doesn't have smart people. The bare bones (The vehicles run on metal wheels on metal rails a fixed distance apart [maybe some other details on how railroads are constructed - wooden ties and a stable aggregate bed], and some of the wheels are driven by a piston that is filled with expanding steam from a boiler and allowed to empty out on the return stroke) might be enough for Colbert to design a viable one - even if not necessarily with any clever bits like superheating, or two power strokes, and he might be on his own to even figure out the valves to let the steam in and out.
 
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The way I see it, people were able to figure out these things through pure trial-and-error in the first place. All you need is a sufficiently intelligent person and a grade-school understanding of how to do it, and that should let them skip over most of the wrong ways to do it.
Well, you could jump-start development of some things a little but don't underestimate the complexities or amount of skill in related fields necessary to invent machines.

In ZnT you actually have an advantage, in that Colbert is playing around with a working (if incredibly weak) engine but if it wasn't for that I'd think it would take decades at least to reconstruct internal combustion and years for steam from the average person's memories, even with wizards on hand to supply and shape materials. For one thing, if you do your steam engine wrong it can blow up, which could kill you or someone with skills you need.
 
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Heck, they have airships. That's like trains, except they're 20% cooler, and they're totally eco-friendly.

Every airship is helping stop the destruction of the world by their relentless hunger for windstones. It's like one of those themes you see in movies like Avatar, except exactly the opposite. You need to industrialize and rape the earth as hard as you can, plundering it of wealth and riches, or it will destroy you.
Yeah, that was what i was referring to. The Aristocracy are the ruling caste, the Gentry are the military/bureaucratic caste. Both can be thought of as "noble" and the demarcation between the two may be fuzzy, but the former is generally much more concerned with descent and bloodline, while the later tends to focus more on your ability to stab people in the face.
Then why the devil is Guiche... like he is? His father is a general of some stripe, but he pretty clearly isn't focusing on martial training.

I don't know, I guess bronze golems are a pretty good power against normals, but Tristain HAS meatshields already - they're called peasant militia. You would think battlemages would focus on area of effect spells designed to destroy large numbers of enemy meatshields, or spells to counter the enemy's battlemages.
 
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Heck, they have airships. That's like trains, except they're 20% cooler, and they're totally eco-friendly.

Every airship is helping stop the destruction of the world by their relentless hunger for windstones. It's like one of those themes you see in movies like Avatar, except exactly the opposite. You need to industrialize and rape the earth as hard as you can, plundering it of wealth and riches, or it will destroy you.

Then why the devil is Guiche... like he is? His father is a general of some stripe, but he pretty clearly isn't focusing on martial training.

I don't know, I guess bronze golems are a pretty good power against normals, but Tristain HAS meatshields already - they're called peasant militia. You would think battlemages would focus on area of effect spells designed to destroy large numbers of enemy meatshields, or spells to counter the enemy's battlemages.

I'm sorry, did you just ask for Halkelgenia to make sense?
 
Well, you could jump-start development of some things a little but don't underestimate the complexities or amount of skill in related fields necessary to invent machines.

In ZnT you actually have an advantage, in that Colbert is playing around with a working (if incredibly weak) engine but if it wasn't for that I'd think it would take decades at least to reconstruct internal combustion and years for steam from the average person's memories, even with wizards on hand to supply and shape materials. For one thing, if you do your steam engine wrong it can blow up, which could kill you or someone with skills you need.

Well, part of it is the ideas, and knowing what would work in a big picture sense. The "engine" Colbert is playing around with is a toy, he hasn't even had the idea to use it to power a vehicle, and IIRC it doesn't have anything to automatically set off the explosions in sequence. Having seen and been inspired by the Zero fighter, he eventually (this might just be in the anime) manages to eventually build an airship that is actually a three-engined propeller plane (Actually, from looking at the design again it looks like it's not a proper plane, but probably uses windstones for lift, as a conventional airship, and the propellers (instead of sails) for, er, propulsion.)

tl;dr: What if you put it on the axle of a cart? well, it's not powerful enough. MOAR POWER. What if you made a bigger and heavier cart? It'd sink into the road / break the wheels. Use metal wheels / special roads. He just needs someone to give him those ideas, and prove they can work.
 
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Heck, they have airships. That's like trains, except they're 20% cooler, and they're totally eco-friendly.

Every airship is helping stop the destruction of the world by their relentless hunger for windstones. It's like one of those themes you see in movies like Avatar, except exactly the opposite. You need to industrialize and rape the earth as hard as you can, plundering it of wealth and riches, or it will destroy you.
FUCKING AIRSHIPS MOTHERFUCKER~!

It's too bad Magda doesn't know what the Windstone Crisis actually is. :D
Then why the devil is Guiche... like he is?
Heir, spare, and one for the church or the Navy.

His older brothers are probably getting martial training; Guiche is just getting as much sweet lovin' as he can while the getting's good.
 
tl;dr: What if you put it on the axle of a cart? well, it's not powerful enough. MOAR POWER. What if you made a bigger and heavier cart? It'd sink into the road / break the wheels. Use metal wheels / special roads. He just needs someone to give him those ideas, and prove they can work.
Right. But if I didn't have a guy who I knew was playing with engines to give those ideas to? It'd be a long slog to contruct anything from my knowledge of the machine (there are pistons and explosions make them go up and down and somehow this turns an axle... no I don't really know how the up and down motion is transferred into rotation).
 
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