The Omicron Plays Final Fantasy Spoiler Thread

For FFX-2, I would like to Omi to play the intro/concert part. Just to have him to taste the game and the change in Yuna (I was absolutely shocked when I have saw this part on the past). Curious to see his reaction.
But I will not ask for more. The game is interesting mechanically, but for the rest... The vibe of bishounen boy's band and superficial girl's band is strong there !
There's also a decent amount of Charlie's Angels in there, along with at least a dash of pandering to yuri fans and perverts more than usual (outfits, The Massage Minigame)

I really want his reaction to The Massage Minigame
 
Omicron said:
At this stage my guess is that Kuja is one of these anime villains who wants to wipe out mankind for aesthetic reasons, ie he is some kind of entity that considers itself separate from humans despite his human appearance, and he sees all humans as ugly creatures who are soiling what could be a perfect world and must be eradicated. This will eventually include Brahne, he's just using her for now.
"This world is imperfect..."

Which is a bit funny because of how similar to Sephiroth, despite Final Fantasy's reputation, Kuja is ultimately just motivated by power for power's sake, with any mass deaths in between largely instrumental. It could even be argued that he's trying to save Gaia (admittedly just because it's the only planet with theatre).
 
"This world is imperfect..."

Which is a bit funny because of how similar to Sephiroth, despite Final Fantasy's reputation, Kuja is ultimately just motivated by power for power's sake, with any mass deaths in between largely instrumental. It could even be argued that he's trying to save Gaia (admittedly just because it's the only planet with theatre).
He is trying to kill people of Gaia prior to making his revolt against Garland known though, less out of malice and more because he knows he'll be killed if he doesn't and his own life is all he cares about.
 
He is trying to kill people of Gaia prior to making his revolt against Garland known though, less out of malice and more because he knows he'll be killed if he doesn't and his own life is all he cares about.
Yes, Kuja doesn't give a damn about however many people die because of his plans, but I feel that his endgame is less "everyone but me dies" and more "I rule everyone else as either immortal king or shadow ruler." The mass murder is not any sort of end goal, unlike the stereotypical JPRG nihilist (at least until Kuja learns that he's mortal and has mental breakdown about it). Kuja's the sort of narcissist who really wants other people to validate him; there's a psychological reason why he spilled so much to Hilda while she was his captive.
 
That's the thing, I'm not even sure the death IS part of his plans so much as "nope, definitely not rebelling, I'm helping this lady to cause a lot of death and definitely not to gather summons that might be able to hurt you, see how I genocide the rats? That's how trustworthy I am".

That is, the death is less "plan" and more "cover story" until his temper tantrum.
 
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It's always been a temper tantrum. Kuja's motivation in FF9 is basically "fuck you daaaaaaaad, I can do this job just as well as your pointless Angel_of_Death_2.0. Watch me. Aren't I a good reaper? Aren't you regretting that you let me steal your airship and drop your stupid 'perfect genome' somewhere on this garbage dump of a planet? Dumbass old man, I'm the best thing you ever made. Someday when I'm finished doing your job I'll kill you about it."

Then he finds out about his defective soul and loses his entire shit.
 
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It's always been a temper tantrum. Kuja's motivation in FF9 is basically "fuck you daaaaaaaad, I can do this job just as well as your pointless Angel_of_Death_2.0. Watch me. Aren't I a good reaper? Aren't you regretting that you let me steal your airship and drop your stupid 'perfect genome' somewhere on this garbage dump of a planet? Dumbass old man, I'm the best thing you ever made. Someday when I'm finished doing your job I'll kill you about it."

Then he finds out about his defective soul and loses his entire shit.
Which is why I don't really feel much sympathy for him when he does die fighting Necron. It's a case of trying to get sympathy for Kuja after all the shit he's been pulling all game. Yes, including the "heads I win, tails you lose" Morton's Fork fights where you either lose, or beat him and then he OHKOs you.

There's another game that pulls off the same reveal, but with a different result.

SPOILERS FOR FIRE EMBLEM 7: BLAZING BLADE! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
In FE7, one of the Big Bad's lieutenants is a femme fatale named Sonia, who had, among other things, seduced the leader of a once-heroic mercenary group, the Black Fang, and turned them into little more than hired muscle for her boss' cause, and killed the family of a little girl (a recruitable character) and "adopted" her as her own, mostly as a pawn. She kills the leader of the mercenary group when he figures her out, and then tosses the little girl to be killed in a maze. All the while sneering at her underlings, beings called Morphs (think human-looking homunculi-like beings created by alchemy or magic) and using them as cannon fodder like everything else.

Of course, the heroes eventually catch up with Sonia and kill her. As she lies dying, she calls out to another of the Big Bad's lieutenants to save her. The lieutenant shoots her down, revealing that actually, they're ALL Morphs, meaning Sonia is one of those things she hates so much. Sonia, shocked and in denial, bleeds out as she calls out to her boss in vain, dying alone.
My issue is, why do some people treat Kuja as a tragedy, while Sonia is rightfully treated as the scum she is?
 
Which is why I don't really feel much sympathy for him when he does die fighting Necron. It's a case of trying to get sympathy for Kuja after all the shit he's been pulling all game. Yes, including the "heads I win, tails you lose" Morton's Fork fights where you either lose, or beat him and then he OHKOs you.

There's another game that pulls off the same reveal, but with a different result.

SPOILERS FOR FIRE EMBLEM 7: BLAZING BLADE! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
In FE7, one of the Big Bad's lieutenants is a femme fatale named Sonia, who had, among other things, seduced the leader of a once-heroic mercenary group, the Black Fang, and turned them into little more than hired muscle for her boss' cause, and killed the family of a little girl (a recruitable character) and "adopted" her as her own, mostly as a pawn. She kills the leader of the mercenary group when he figures her out, and then tosses the little girl to be killed in a maze. All the while sneering at her underlings, beings called Morphs (think human-looking homunculi-like beings created by alchemy or magic) and using them as cannon fodder like everything else.

Of course, the heroes eventually catch up with Sonia and kill her. As she lies dying, she calls out to another of the Big Bad's lieutenants to save her. The lieutenant shoots her down, revealing that actually, they're ALL Morphs, meaning Sonia is one of those things she hates so much. Sonia, shocked and in denial, bleeds out as she calls out to her boss in vain, dying alone.
My issue is, why do some people treat Kuja as a tragedy, while Sonia is rightfully treated as the scum she is?
Probably the fact that Zidane does very clearly sympathize with him, and as the protagonist Zidane's opinions are going to seriously color people's interpretations.

Plus, Kuja is clearly kind of repentant as he dies. He did have the potential to be a decent person buried somewhere deep under him by an upbringing that Zidane thinks would have probably made him just as bad if he'd experienced it.
 
Plus, Kuja is clearly kind of repentant as he dies. He did have the potential to be a decent person buried somewhere deep under him by an upbringing that Zidane thinks would have probably made him just as bad if he'd experienced it.
"There but for the grace of [insert FF deity of choice here] I go"? Sounds about right.

Still doesn't excuse the little shit.
 
It's worth noting that extreme empathy is one of Zidane's primary character traits - there's nobody he won't try to save or help if given half the chance, and he never holds grudges with anybody, no matter what they do. So, him in particular being willing to forgive Kuja isn't really that surprising - I don't know that Garnet would have done the same, she has a more spunky personality and has way more emotional reactions to near everything that happens to her.
 
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Which is why I don't really feel much sympathy for him when he does die fighting Necron. It's a case of trying to get sympathy for Kuja after all the shit he's been pulling all game. Yes, including the "heads I win, tails you lose" Morton's Fork fights where you either lose, or beat him and then he OHKOs you.

There's another game that pulls off the same reveal, but with a different result.

SPOILERS FOR FIRE EMBLEM 7: BLAZING BLADE! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
In FE7, one of the Big Bad's lieutenants is a femme fatale named Sonia, who had, among other things, seduced the leader of a once-heroic mercenary group, the Black Fang, and turned them into little more than hired muscle for her boss' cause, and killed the family of a little girl (a recruitable character) and "adopted" her as her own, mostly as a pawn. She kills the leader of the mercenary group when he figures her out, and then tosses the little girl to be killed in a maze. All the while sneering at her underlings, beings called Morphs (think human-looking homunculi-like beings created by alchemy or magic) and using them as cannon fodder like everything else.

Of course, the heroes eventually catch up with Sonia and kill her. As she lies dying, she calls out to another of the Big Bad's lieutenants to save her. The lieutenant shoots her down, revealing that actually, they're ALL Morphs, meaning Sonia is one of those things she hates so much. Sonia, shocked and in denial, bleeds out as she calls out to her boss in vain, dying alone.
My issue is, why do some people treat Kuja as a tragedy, while Sonia is rightfully treated as the scum she is?
I've never played FE7 but from your description, it sounds like she's just evil for the sake of it? Whereas disc 3 of FF9 gets into unpacking Kuja's whole psychology and the reveal about Terra which explains a lot about why he is the way he is. And yeah, having Zidane trying to reach out to his wayward brother goes a long way as well.
 
I've never played FE7 but from your description, it sounds like she's just evil for the sake of it? Whereas disc 3 of FF9 gets into unpacking Kuja's whole psychology and the reveal about Terra which explains a lot about why he is the way he is. And yeah, having Zidane trying to reach out to his wayward brother goes a long way as well.
Then it's a good thing I'm following Omi's thread :p

To be honest, I tend to spoiler myself on stuff when I'm curious, trying to know the story but not really bothering with the original, just reading stuff online. Yes, that's a terrible model, as I'm discovering through this thread. Not only are summaries broad strokes, but a lot of subtext and character is lost. Will I stop doing that? Who knows.

Thing is, I'm following Omi's FF thread so I can get better context for all the spoilers and twists and things I've read online. Some games, like FF1 and 4-6, I've played and know what's going on. The other games, however, are just broad strokes, which is why I enjoy Omi's thread so much. It's informative, and relatively comprehensive. What he doesn't say, others will add in once he reaches a certain point, so I still get full context.
 
... I need you guys to tell me that this big impressive city destruction isn't going to be another Lunar Cry.
Because at least the Lunar Cry had the excuse that it was at the end of the game, and thus might be explained by running out of development capability, instead of the starting conflict of the story that it is sounding like gets dropped for the rest of it.
All three major cities get nuked by different Eidolons and they're always treated as a huge deal.
Also, I must point out that taken from another angle, the general inability of Gaian souls to muster enough emotional power to Trance also makes them look kind of shabby and small and limited of spirit compared to people from Gaia who can.
The Genomes, Kuja and Zidane's species, are little more than flesh robots. They are literally soulless because they're intended to be the bodies that the Terrans will inhabit after Garland finishes harvesting Gaia.

Kuja does have a soul, but because of a number of factors - being a prototype, the soul being added when the body was already an adult, being raised in a dead world, being raised by Garland, being a massive narcissist, etc - he literally is defective.

It's not subtext, it's text text. Kuja is defective and the Terrans are more akin to a virus like Lavos than people.
 
The Genomes, Kuja and Zidane's species, are little more than flesh robots. They are literally soulless because they're intended to be the bodies that the Terrans will inhabit after Garland finishes harvesting Gaia.

Kuja does have a soul, but because of a number of factors - being a prototype, the soul being added when the body was already an adult, being raised in a dead world, being raised by Garland, being a massive narcissist, etc - he literally is defective.

It's not subtext, it's text text. Kuja is defective and the Terrans are more akin to a virus like Lavos than people.
The end of the game literally has the Genomes living with the black mages (similarly mindless automations that developed free will and personalities) in their village, framed positively as the friends and successors of the black mages.

Like. Maybe it's the intent that the black mages only have personalities because they were made from chopped-up souls (the Mist) to begin with. But given how the story treats the Genomes, I think the intent of the writers is that the soul is not the requirement for sapience, but rather the result of it. Your memories and emotions, written into the sky.

So the lives of the Genomes would be dull as an intentional measure to prevent them from developing their own souls that could boot out Terran souls. The tragedy of Kuja is that he was a real boy all along, he just ruined his own happiness with his inferiority-superiority complex.
 
Omicron said:
There's another thing to note, though: Freya, Steiner, Vivi, and Quina's Trances all share the same color palette of gold and purple, and the same stylized geometric patterns. This is very curious, considering that they all come from different origins and cultures; it's almost like Trance taps into a shared power with a specific origin, rather than being unique to individuals. This is especially notable because Zidane and Dagger deviate from that pattern: Zidane's dominant color is pink and he lacks the geometric patterns, while Dagger is gold and has the patterns but is pink rather than purple, as if she were "halfway" between Zidane and the rest of the party.
At this point I'm excitingly waiting to see if Omicron realizes that we haven't seen any other Genomes at all before Zidane explicitly shares it in the black mage village. I can't wait to see whatever bizarre conspiracy theories he makes to explain it before we get to Bran Bal.
 
(a wasting problem they haven't fully overcome to this day - at least the first installment of the FF7 remake had an issue where you would persistently fill up your Limit Break meter just as you reached an in-fight cutscene that empties the limit break gauge)
FFX does at least solve this issue, letting you chose whether to use an overdrive/limit break or a normal action, even giving you additional ways to fill the gauge, though only ever one method at a time.
 
It's like the people making these games just don't want to admit that their next bright idea actually makes something worse.
*looks at the sphere grid, license board, and crystarium from the next three non-MMO mainline entries where they spent the better part of a decade trying to replace all existing forms of character advancement with a board game that would consistently only level up one stat at a time, and when it was combined with normal levelling required the board game to be allowed to equip any given item*
*looks at regular leveling up and equitable and/or learnable skills with skill points as used in various forms by FFIX, FFV, the Tales Series and dozens of other RPGs*

You don't say

edit: I think part of why IX is my favorite because its the last one where they actually tried building mechanically on what came before, instead of reinventing everything from the ground up for the sake of innovation more than the sake of improvement. X didn't COMPLETELY abandon what came before, but the Sphere Grid was definitely a harbinger of that attitude you mention taking over
 
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FFX does at least solve this issue, letting you chose whether to use an overdrive/limit break or a normal action, even giving you additional ways to fill the gauge, though only ever one method at a time.
As mentioned, FFVII already let players save up their limits, but yes, FFX does it better and is, really, the apex form of the Limit Break system - you get to save it, use it when needed, and choose which actions charge it up, meaning you can customize it to fit whichever role a team member has in battle.

Which, considering that fact of the Final Fantasy series often feeling the need to pointlessly reinvent the wheel every other title, might well be why the same mechanics as Limit Breaks weren't present in FFXII, or even FFX-2; they knew they couldn't top FFX, so they, as usual, decided to try something completely different instead of recycling something for once.
 
Which, considering that fact of the Final Fantasy series often feeling the need to pointlessly reinvent the wheel every other title, might well be why the same mechanics as Limit Breaks weren't present in FFXII, or even FFX-2; they knew they couldn't top FFX, so they, as usual, decided to try something completely different instead of recycling something for once.
For better or for worse, Final Fantasy really likes to try and innovate on its systems with each new entry. I mean really, compare Final Fantasy I to Final Fantasy XVI, then look to the side and compare Dragon Quest I to Dragon Quest XI; there's changes and improvements with each Dragon Quest, sure, but overall it's still very much the same core gameplay at heart. Meanwhile Final Fantasy has gone from turn based, to ATB, in and out of class systems and materia baubles and the sphere grid, and as of late has decided to straight up try and be an Action game with RPG elements.

Probably why the series is so divisive at points, to be honest.
 
For better or for worse, Final Fantasy really likes to try and innovate on its systems with each new entry. I mean really, compare Final Fantasy I to Final Fantasy XVI, then look to the side and compare Dragon Quest I to Dragon Quest XI; there's changes and improvements with each Dragon Quest, sure, but overall it's still very much the same core gameplay at heart. Meanwhile Final Fantasy has gone from turn based, to ATB, in and out of class systems and materia baubles and the sphere grid, and as of late has decided to straight up try and be an Action game with RPG elements.

Probably why the series is so divisive at points, to be honest.
Yeah, Dragon Quest is just "the same game, but slightly better (in terms of BOTH plot and gameplay)" with every iteration. It's a consistent series, but really, when you've played one of them you've played all of them, with DQV and DQVII having some points for originality.

The way Final Fantasy reinvents itself with every game is something I prefer, why I find the series better, but there is such a thing as going too far, and sometimes they iterate the worst aspects of something (ATB, anyone?), while not iterating other things that might instead deserve to be explored more - see: the genuine gulf between Limit Breaks as FFVII introduces them, and how much better they are in FFX, or the astounding improvement of the Job System from FFIII to FFV, and then again from FFV to FFT.

I'd just have preferred if they were better able to find a middle-of-the-road option between "complete revolution" and "same game, second serving" that DQ does.
 
Yeah, Dragon Quest is just "the same game, but slightly better (in terms of BOTH plot and gameplay)" with every iteration. It's a consistent series, but really, when you've played one of them you've played all of them, with DQV and DQVII having some points for originality.

The way Final Fantasy reinvents itself with every game is something I prefer, why I find the series better, but there is such a thing as going too far, and sometimes they iterate the worst aspects of something (ATB, anyone?), while not iterating other things that might instead deserve to be explored more - see: the genuine gulf between Limit Breaks as FFVII introduces them, and how much better they are in FFX, or the astounding improvement of the Job System from FFIII to FFV, and then again from FFV to FFT.

I'd just have preferred if they were better able to find a middle-of-the-road option between "complete revolution" and "same game, second serving" that DQ does.
I'll go at least slightly to bat for DQ since I've been slowly playing through the series myself, it's more like the games all have the same skeleton than actually being the exact same game. They do still iterate on each other and change things from game to game, I doubt it would be nearly so beloved of a series if it was on par with say, the average yearly sports game. Just in the first five games, you go from "single person 1v1 combat" to being able to build parties of various classes with an interesting spin on the reclassing system, to DQV straight up going "yeah what if you could just recruit 95% of the monsters in the game to fight for you".

But yeah, it is still the same skeleton under there, the basic battle system is forever the standard turn-based "pick actions, everyone takes their turn, next round". It's a strong comfort food where if you liked one Dragon Quest game, you'll probably like all the others, while Final Fantasy can slingshot you between half a dozen styles of gameplay without hesitating, and sure sometimes it's an awesome iteration like the class systems going from I to III to V to Tactics, but other times it feels like the devs looked at something and went "how can we make it worse".
 
The biggest thing about how FF is always reinventing itself is that it is basically split up into very distinctive eras by console generation, where within a console generation things advance a medium amount and then between console generations things change radically. The NES FF games are clearly of a kind, the SNES FF games are clearly of a kind, the PS1 games+X to a degree are clearly of a kind (X is kinda halfway between the PS1 games and PS2 games, a unique , XI and XII are clearly of a kind, XIII is a trilogy unto itself and clearly in dialog with XII mechanically, XIV is its own thing, and then XV and XVI are of a kind with each other to a degree.

The console generations are clearly connected to each other, but I'd hesitate to call them "one series" in terms of narrative style and gameplay so much as 'a franchise' or something. NES is turn based and has multiple hits with the attack command and simple narratives, Playstation 1 goes heavy on the minigames and a general theme of skills and equipment being linked in some way, the PS2 games are desperately trying to reinvent the concept of character progression from the ground up, XI and XII are an MMO and an MMO-shaped single player game, while XII and the XIII games feature heavy focus on characters playing themselves while you serve as coach or manager, etc.

There's clearly distinct groupable sequential series of connected games in there, its just they keep giving up on a direction after five or six years and starting over from scratch on a new series within the franchise.
 
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...are they? Other than being pixel-based and ATB-fueled, I struggle to find anything that FFV and FFVI have in common.
*looks at Gilgamesh*
*looks at Ultros*
There's also how both center on opposing a central antagonist who you know about the whole game but who nevertheless still has very little depth or sympathy to them - Kefka and Exdeath share more between them from a narrative perspective than either does with the "only really deal with at the end of the game" NES villains or the "sexy and sympathetic human people you get to know as much as you chase" of the PS1 generation

also also how most of the VI characters are all clearly mechanically based on V classes, complete with having skills identified with those classes as key to their permanent mechanical identity, with skill point based character growth that affects how their stats develop as they level and which locks you into a certain type of build until you reach endgame and everything goes wild with everybody knowing everything. Switch to a new job or equip a new Esper, you need to grind AP to get anything useful out of them.

(in contrast the PS1 games all share a tendency for character builds to be reinventable on the fly based on what equipment you have and the skills/magic associated with that equipment, even if the degree of build variance and what equipment means in this context varies between them - all you need to do is equip materia/junction spells/equip a weapon with the skill you want and you are good to go)
 
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*looks at the sphere grid, license board, and crystarium from the next three non-MMO mainline entries where they spent the better part of a decade trying to replace all existing forms of character advancement with a board game that would consistently only level up one stat at a time, and when it was combined with normal levelling required the board game to be allowed to equip any given item*
*looks at regular leveling up and equitable and/or learnable skills with skill points as used in various forms by FFIX, FFV, the Tales Series and dozens of other RPGs*

You don't say

edit: I think part of why IX is my favorite because its the last one where they actually tried building mechanically on what came before, instead of reinventing everything from the ground up for the sake of innovation more than the sake of improvement. X didn't COMPLETELY abandon what came before, but the Sphere Grid was definitely a harbinger of that attitude you mention taking over

I really need to pay attention to which thread I'm opening when I check my alerts :V
 
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