The Lonely Lioness - Cersei Lannister Quest

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Well, hindsight analysis is always an interesting exercise.

Hm, things could still have been salvaged if Cersei had agreed to pardon Renly. Then again, given the massive size of Renly's army, it was also possible that Renly could have decided that he would rather have the throne than fall back into line with a pardon anyways.

It would have also helped if Cersei had acquiesced to removing the High Septon, perhaps giving him a fancy but essentially empty and meaningless title to soothe his feelings, if it had truly been necessary.

Before that point, well, Cersei could have at least executed Pycelle without branding Tywin a traitor.

Going back even further, Cersei could also have meekly acquiesced to Tywin's command and plotted behind the scenes to deal with Tywin once the war was won, and he came to King's Landing.

If nothing else, if Cersei had sent another letter to Tywin back then and tried to better elucidate her reasoning for her decisions and what she had in mind, it is possible that Tywin might have agreed.
 
I feel conflicted with the idea that pardoning Renly would have stopped the roller coaster of bad luck that came after it.

Like, I can see why It would have worked, but It would have been so against the Cersei we were trying to cultivate early on.

We spared Ned because killing him would have been a terrible decision, It was meant to ensure the North didn't interviened in the coming War, and we knew Ned was a man who valued greatly his Word.

Leave His People alone and he tales the Black.

No such guarantess would have existed with Renly, who back them had almost the full back of the Reach. Pardoning him would have seen as a proof of weakness, and if he just ignores the pardon and still wants the Throne, we would have just made a ridicule.

And Tywin, who was an "Ally" back than...oh he would have not kicked that at all, even if worked. His Pride wouldn't take us not punishing Renly
 
Hm, good question. Would Tywin have accepted Cersei pardoning Renly?

Such was the conundrum. Cersei could have agreed to pardon Renly, but there was no reason for Renly not to decide to go ahead and seize the throne anyways.
 
Personally, for me, the real turning point was when Jaime died. Had he lived, we could have mended ties with Tywin and Cersei would have been more mentally stable with someone she could confide in. So, really, this can all be blamed on Stannis.
 
I have a question for @Azel

Clearly, it did not happen here, but if events had played out differently, would it have been possible to redeem Cersei? Like obviously, she could never be Ned Stark, but could she have become somebody who genuinely cared about the people of Westeros?
 
Now that the curtain has fallen, I would like to tell the thread of a bit of an unexpected development you guys have caused: Sending Ned Stark to the Wall.

First, and you're aware of this, it galvanized the Northern Lords, leading to the Bolton-Frey betrayal. While this resembles the show, the context of it is wildly different, as Robb never becomes the Young Wolf, undefeated on the field, and moreover survives until the present day, which might lead to a much longer, actually fought northern civil war as opposed to a Bolton takeover (By the way in case you were wondering we'd be around the start of the third book timeline-wise).

Second, which might be of more interest: Ned's presence has shaken up things up north. As in, the True North. Let me explain. I play as Brynjolf Whiteraven, King Beyond the Wall (And grandchild of a certain Brynden Rivers!), who has so far united most of the Wildling tribes, allied the Thenns, the Giants, and ventured as far as the Lands of Always Winter, now preparing his forces to cross the Wall. What is relevant however, is that in timeline the Great Ranging wasn't led by Lord Commander Mormont, but instead Ned Stark, who was almost immediatly promoted to First Ranger. and sent to lead the expedition to find the lost Benjen Stark. This resulted in a rather fateful encounter in which Ned and the soon to be King-Beyond the Wall spoke... Rather cordially, all things considered. Brynjolf considers the Others the true enemy and warned the Night's Watch about that, demanding passage through the Wall and handing him evidence of the Other's existence in the form of an undead magically frozen feather (A souvenir from up north north). He also told the Night's Watch how to fend off Wights, which led to them surviving the Ranging relatively intact.

Now, several turns later, there are rumours of a "mutiny" at Castle Black in which Ned Stark has died, and Lord Commander Mormont is sending letters requesting aid to fight the undead menace. It is very probable this mutiny was in fact the corpses from the expedition being brought back home and raised as Wights (like in the books but much worse), and the rumours also speak of fire being used. Now, Brynjolf readies himself to hold talks with the Watch before ordering an all-out assault on the much weakened Wall, which given the context of a much less hostile relationship due to Ned Stark, the Watch might decide to try for a compromise. Only time will tell.

Just thought it'd be funny to share this tidbit, as your actions helped massively change NW-Wildling relations from canon, and also have left the North terribly exposed if say, a horde of Free Folk managed to cross the Wall relatively unscathed, as they'd be able to play kingmaker between the Starks and Boltons (Instead of facing a united front). Despite never knowing of her, Cersei has by far had the most impact on Brynjolf's campaign out of any player - and dare I say, a rather positive one.
 
Also that first letter to the Iron Bank came right as those of us in Braavos were asking what kind of support they could give us. I mean literally in our meeting. So it basically threw everything into chaos and caused our campaigns to be much weaker.
 
Ah, poor Bhaelys, though. As the mage, she was one's foremost favorite of the Targaryen players. If she had succeeded, who knows what could have happened?
 
Truth be told, one would not have minded if the quest had ended that way. It would have been fascinating to see what Bhaelys would have gained from sacrificing Cersei, observe how Bhaelys would have proceeded.
 
Rethall said:
Just thought it'd be funny to share this tidbit, as your actions helped massively change NW-Wildling relations from canon, and also have left the North terribly exposed if say, a horde of Free Folk managed to cross the Wall relatively unscathed, as they'd be able to play kingmaker between the Starks and Boltons (Instead of facing a united front). Despite never knowing of her, Cersei has by far had the most impact on Brynjolf's campaign out of any player - and dare I say, a rather positive one.
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If things hadn't gone so quickly to shit, I actually was thinking of sending a letter to the Night's Watch to let the Free Folk army cross if they were willing to swear loyalty to Joffrey. Ideally, they would have been resettled on the lands of the traitorous Boltons and their other allies.
 
digital2 said:
I have a question for @Azel

Clearly, it did not happen here, but if events had played out differently, would it have been possible to redeem Cersei? Like obviously, she could never be Ned Stark, but could she have become somebody who genuinely cared about the people of Westeros?
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Sure. Though the black arts of Character Development, many things are possible. Though that would have required actively working on her issues.
 
Hm, if Cersei had sent another letter to Tywin explaining that Lysa was the one who had captured Tyrion, that the Riverlands were not responsible for it, and that she was trying to procure Tyrion's release from Lysa and bring the Riverlands into the war against Renly and Stannis, would Tywin have relented?

Of course, even if he had, there was the matter of Stannis' shadow assassin that killed Jaime. At that point, even if Cersei had tried to persuade Tywin that the Riverlands were not responsible, he probably would not have listened.
 
Tzaphquiel said:
Hm, if Cersei had sent another letter to Tywin explaining that Lysa was the one who had captured Tyrion, that the Riverlands were not responsible for it, and that she was trying to procure Tyrion's release from Lysa and bring the Riverlands into the war against Renly and Stannis, would Tywin have relented?

Of course, even if he had, there was the matter of Stannis' shadow assassin that killed Jaime. At that point, even if Cersei had tried to persuade Tywin that the Riverlands were not responsible, he probably would not have listened.
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You are still focusing on the wrong side of the equation. Cersei never had enough leverage to get Tywin to stand down. She had ample leverage to make the Tully / Stark host stand down though.
 
Hm, so Cersei should have sent another letter to the Tullies about yielding to Tywin to minimize the damage, then turned her attention to Tyrion's release. It would have simplified things considerably.
 
The very concept of the Seven Kingdoms? Quite a hefty metaphysical sacrifice, then.

Then any attempt to reunite the Seven Kingdoms will be doomed to ruin? The Targaryen players cannot attempt to reign over a reunited Westeros without meeting a disastrous end?
 
They can form a new kingdom that is a united Westeros. If one was powerful enough, they could even unite them all through right of conquest, same as they were when the Targaryens first came to Westeros. But claims of continuity through the Iron Throne and the Kingdom founded by the bloodline of Aegon the Conqueror are literally cursed.
 
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Tzaphquiel said:
The very concept of the Seven Kingdoms? Quite a hefty metaphysical sacrifice, then.

Then any attempt to reunite the Seven Kingdoms will be doomed to ruin? The Targaryen players cannot attempt to reign over a reunited Westeros without meeting a disastrous end?
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We can create something new. There had been banter about a confederation of player-ruled kingdoms before; that certainly would qualify. But it hits Rhaenys particularly hard not just stat-wise but also character-wise because Targaryen restoration was her whole thing - undoing the Usurper's rebellion, restoring the realm as it was, etc. She was leaning heavily on continuity - Queen Regnant of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men and all that. All of that is now literally cursed.

So, new idea for now is that Rhaenys will attempt to build a better Westeros by spreading Dornish customs throughout Westeros, which actually would improve the smallfolk's life, because Dorne is just awesome like that - free food and beer during famine, lords have to support soldiers crippled in their service, no right of husbands to 'discipline' wives, etc.

Basically, to get back at Azel for disabling legitimacy, I'll now play the fucking reformist Social Democrats :V
 
Well, it should not be surprising. Aerys and Cersei learned from Stannis' example. Stannis offered the metaphysical sacrifice of all the crowns owed to him, offered the sacrifice of his original fate in order to become Azor Ahai.

It stands to reason that other metaphysical things can be sacrificed as well, including concepts. For something like hatching a dragon, especially when fate decreed that the dragons were to die, well, an equal sacrifice would be needed. Something as metaphysically heavy as the very concept of the Seven Kingdoms is of such suitable value.
 
Chimeraguard said:
They can form a new kingdom that is a united Westeros. If one was powerful enough, they could even unite them all through right of conquest, same as they were when the Targaryens first came to Westeros. But claims of continuity through the Iron Throne and the Kingdom founded by the bloodline of Aegon the Conqueror are literally cursed.
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I'm confused by how this curse works. So, let's say the Targaryens in the Vale somehow conquered every other kingdom to unite Westeros. In the future, if their descendants were to claim continuity through the Iron Throne, does that mean that their family line become cursed and Westeros is destined to break apart again?
 
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