Remove ads

The King James Victory Parade - Avatar: The Way of Water and sequels

Reader mode
I mean, frankly, I think it's fair to say, in isolation, that Avatar is just a film that doesn't have deep bold visionary ambitions and just wants to be Alien Dances With Wolves. And while I see problems with that very concept, and certainly with the film's execution, I would say that overall the film is just aggressively Fine. If you like it, good for you!

What I think is in contention, however, is that we can't just consider the film in isolation. We need to consider it in the context of a film that made some of the most money a film has ever made, and in that context we expect something more than Just An Okay Way to Spend A Couple Hours and then basically entirely forget about. There are a number of scenes in Titanic that are absolutely iconic and have stayed in public consciousness for decades- the "I'm the King Of the World!" scene being the most famous example, but there are others when you tried. When Kojima made the Titantic joke in MGS2 by naming his protagonists Jack and Rose, that wasn't some obscure joke that it took a film buff to get, because the film is so engrained in public consciousness that those names are, in the world of film, associated with those two characters clearly enough that it will spring to mind if you're familiar with pop culture.

Alien has plenty of famous quotes and scenes, and Ripley is an iconic character, same for Halloween and Laurey Strode, and in many ways redefined how people think of horror movies. And so on. And none of these films made as much money commercially as Avatar. Making that much money means that there is an inherent expectation that a film will make an impact in cultural consciousness, and Avatar largely just... didn't, outside, say, the niche world of Versus Debates and whatnot. And that is worth noting and critiquing imo.
 
To be fair, plenty of things can be smashes in their time and then completely disappear from relevance. Just look at the popular music charts for examples.
 
Based Bean said:
When Kojima made the Titantic joke in MGS2 by naming his protagonists Jack and Rose, that wasn't some obscure joke that it took a film buff to get, because the film is so engrained in public consciousness that those names are, in the world of film, associated with those two characters clearly enough that it will spring to mind if you're familiar with pop culture.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Titanic was also only five years old when MGS2 came out :V
 
I honestly don't know what else to say other than that I remembered my childhood self getting really pissed at the RDA burning the tree, getting seriously hyped at the main character getting to ride a dragon bird, and the giant climatic takedown of the interplanetary airlifter turned bomber.

At the very least, I just want to see dragons vs spacecraft again desu. I will just treat this upcoming flim like Battleship, I guess.
 
Ford Prefect said:
Titanic was also only five years old when MGS2 came out :V
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Uh...I don't see what that has to do with Bean's point? People with no previous experience with MGS2 can pick it up and still get the Titanic reference now, a quarter-century after the film released, which I think is more relevant to what she's saying.

Unless you mean that Kojima just included it because it was a recent movie, in which case I don't think there's any Avatar references in Peace Walker nor MGSV, which released 1 and 6 years later respectively - none as prominent as the MGS2 one anyways.
 
I think one of the possible factors that explain the difference in cultural penetration between Avatar and Titanic is tv reruns. In my country at least, Titanic is one of those old movies which gets reruns from time to time, the same applies to a lesser extent to Alien for exemple, but I've never seen Avatar being rerun.
 
Vympel said:
Identical to Avatar discourse is GOT discourse post Season 8. A reliable way to garner clout on twitter is to do some trite post about how "GOT vanished from the cultural conversation after Season 8 because it was so bad."

Except it didn't, in large part because these posts were so goddamn common and garnered so much engagement, and again, a lot of popular TV shows aren't continually widely remembered and discussed unless there's a continual output of stuff relating to them.

Would anyone be talking about stuff in the (phenomenal) Breaking Bad if Better Call Saul wasn't airing right now, and how long do people think visible conversation about either will go on in 'pop culture' or whatever we want to call it after the series finale of BCS later this year?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean, what happened to GoT is worse then vanishing. The conversation focused on how truly awful that last season was and people forgot how good the first few seasons were.
 
Based Bean said:
I mean, frankly, I think it's fair to say, in isolation, that Avatar is just a film that doesn't have deep bold visionary ambitions and just wants to be Alien Dances With Wolves. And while I see problems with that very concept, and certainly with the film's execution, I would say that overall the film is just aggressively Fine. If you like it, good for you!

What I think is in contention, however, is that we can't just consider the film in isolation. We need to consider it in the context of a film that made some of the most money a film has ever made, and in that context we expect something more than Just An Okay Way to Spend A Couple Hours and then basically entirely forget about. There are a number of scenes in Titanic that are absolutely iconic and have stayed in public consciousness for decades- the "I'm the King Of the World!" scene being the most famous example, but there are others when you tried. When Kojima made the Titantic joke in MGS2 by naming his protagonists Jack and Rose, that wasn't some obscure joke that it took a film buff to get, because the film is so engrained in public consciousness that those names are, in the world of film, associated with those two characters clearly enough that it will spring to mind if you're familiar with pop culture.

Alien has plenty of famous quotes and scenes, and Ripley is an iconic character, same for Halloween and Laurey Strode, and in many ways redefined how people think of horror movies. And so on. And none of these films made as much money commercially as Avatar. Making that much money means that there is an inherent expectation that a film will make an impact in cultural consciousness, and Avatar largely just... didn't, outside, say, the niche world of Versus Debates and whatnot. And that is worth noting and critiquing imo.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hey now, there is one thing Avatar did that people remember years after.

Papyrus :p
 
I require, neigh, demand, an 11th hour save courtesy of LAST SHADOW

"Nobody ever looks up"

(Tsu'tei should have be Toruk Mak'to, and I maintain this.)
 
Dekutulla said:
Uh...I don't see what that has to do with Bean's point? People with no previous experience with MGS2 can pick it up and still get the Titanic reference now, a quarter-century after the film released, which I think is more relevant to what she's saying.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

BB said 'When Kojima made the Titantic joke in MGS2 by naming his protagonists Jack and Rose, that wasn't some obscure joke that it took a film buff to get, because the film is so engrained in public consciousness' and part of the reason why it wasn't obscure at the time was because, at the time, the film was pretty recent. Kojima riffing on Titanic is well documented so it's hard for us to judge this, but do you think that someone playing MGS2 as part of the HD collection in 2011 definitely got it without being told? That someone playing MGS2 for the first today would just know from hearing the names 'Jack' and 'Rose?'

Metal Gear Rising is currently experiencing a big resurgence. Do you think that people getting their taste for Revengeance for the first time get the reference?

In fact, if you just asked someone on the street 'what are the names of the main characters of Titanic?' how many people do you think would give you the correct answer? I'd hazard a bet that some people could, but it's probably fewer than I think is being suggested. Certainly, the imagery of Titanic is very recognisable. No one is going to mistake Leonardo di Caprio and Kate Winslett on the bow as being from any other film, even if they don't recall the names of their characters. That's a key image. At the same time, if you showed someone who had seen Avatar the Hallelujah Mountains or Jake and Neytiri riding their Banshees, they're not going to mistake that for a different film either, in much the same way.
 
I dunno, I feel like Jack and Rose are memorable names precisely because they are short and simple.
 
Ford Prefect said:
BB said 'When Kojima made the Titantic joke in MGS2 by naming his protagonists Jack and Rose, that wasn't some obscure joke that it took a film buff to get, because the film is so engrained in public consciousness' and part of the reason why it wasn't obscure at the time was because, at the time, the film was pretty recent. Kojima riffing on Titanic is well documented so it's hard for us to judge this, but do you think that someone playing MGS2 as part of the HD collection in 2011 definitely got it without being told? That someone playing MGS2 for the first today would just know from hearing the names 'Jack' and 'Rose?'

Metal Gear Rising is currently experiencing a big resurgence. Do you think that people getting their taste for Revengeance for the first time get the reference?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Rose barely comes up in Revengeance so probably not? But like, I watched someone play MGS2 for the first time with no prior knowledge of the series less than a month ago and they caught on to the Titanic reference relatively quick. So...yes, I do think they'd get it, I saw it happen.
 
Last edited:
all fictions said:
I dunno, I feel like Jack and Rose are memorable names precisely because they are short and simple.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I was curious so I asked one of my housemates if he remembered their names, and he didn't. But when I said their names were Jack and Rose, it was clear that jogged his memory. On the other hand if I namedropped 'Caledon Huckley' (Huxley?) it's not like most people would recognise that as Billy Zane's character. If they even remember that Billy Zane was in the movie.

Dekutulla said:
Rose barely comes up in Revengeance so probably not? But like, I watched someone play MGS2 for the first time with no prior knowledge of the series less than a month ago and they caught on to the Titanic reference relatively quick. So...yes, I do think they'd get it, I saw it happen.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

And I know plenty of people who didn't know until they were told. Often the response on being told is 'oooh, that makes sense' but it's not a universal experience.
 
Ford Prefect said:
And I know plenty of people who didn't know until they were told. Often the response on being told is 'oooh, that makes sense' but it's not a universal experience.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The point is not that literally everybody ever will get the reference, that isn't a standard that is reasonably applied to anything. I was speaking generally. There are people that will get it, there are people that will not, but I think that it's fair to say that generally when people think about it they'll get the joke.
 
I have never seen Titanic and watched Avatar once in cinema at the time of its release and then again on TV years later, yet I can name Jack and Rose but not any Avatar character other than Quaritch. Fuck, I can't even remember who plays the lead. Is it Sam Worthington? It's Sam Worthington, isn't it?
 
Based Bean said:
The point is not that literally everybody ever will get the reference, that isn't a standard that is reasonably applied to anything. I was speaking generally. There are people that will get it, there are people that will not, but I think that it's fair to say that generally when people think about it they'll get the joke.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Titanic is a very recognisable film. The idea that Avatar is not, however, is just an idea that some people in this thread are having, and then agreeing with each over. Meanwhile, people are rushing to watch the trailer for Avatar 2 by the literal, actual tens of millions. If you think the majority of responses to the trailer is 'what the hell is this?' then that's wild.

We don't need to infer anything, or suppose. We can go and scroll through the comments of basically any upload of this trailer and see all the people talking about how long they've waited, or how excited they are to see Avatar again, or how just hearing a musical cue gave them chills. How much they missed Jake and Neytiri and the world of Pandora, how it was their favourite film when they were a kid, or how much it reminded them of the original. People are out there talking about how they shed tears of joy.

Think about your example of Titanic's cultural impact: being recognisable enough to show up in Metal Gear Solid 2. But what's the actual cultural impact of Metal Gear Solid? I'm sure we'd all agree that Metal Gear Solid is an important, recognisable title, and a key part of video game history. MGS means a great deal to me, and it's been hugely influential, and I've spent a lot of time immersed in it ... which is why I can tell you that the entire franchise, over the course of decades, has shifted about 50 million units.

A hundred and fifty million people watched the Way of Water trailer in one day. At some point you and everyone else are going to have to accept that actually reflects the enduring legacy of the original film.
 
This is just one screen in Paris, but people got pretty enthusiastic for it:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqvnX5i-Dio

It's historically been popular on SV to be cynical about this film, and it's popular to do so in other online spaces. But the reality is perhaps a little different.

Mak Taru said:
So do we know anything about the plot of the movie yet?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It appears only in general strokes. It's set ten years after the first film and follows Jake and Neytiri, their children as some trouble with the RDA forces them to migrate to the territory of the Metkayina, who built the village on the sea in the teaser. Also you can infer some things from details in the casting, like Quaritch returning.
 
Dekutulla said:
The common joke is that for such a popular/successful movie it left basically no cultural impact in comparison to other popular, big movies. I don't see how it getting big crowds really contradicts that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I feel like I've explained this sufficiently at this point, so indulge me a little with the following question: would you say that the Marvel Cinematic Universe has had a lot of cultural impact?
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top