Some of the names of the heroes that took down Melkhior:
-Bob Imarat
-Joe Ratface
-Jack Wormtail
-Bruce Furryfeet
-Clark Notarat
or even better
-Will'iam Notarat
Honestly if there are multiple Skaven willing and able to work with us against the undead and other Skaven that's a good thing, great even. We are not in a position to directly help them out, but it does hint that the Horned Rat's control over them isn't as absolute as it is in some versions of the setting. This is one of the more reasonable ways to beat Skaven attrition, have enough Skaven of your own to serve as protection. Technically, technically our grudges are with the Underempire not with random escaped Skavenslaves so it they manage to establish themselves more power to them
Technically, technically our grudges are with the Underempire not with random escaped Skavenslaves so it they manage to establish themselves more power to them
Not really true, grudges can be declared against states clan kindoms or other politcaly entities, they can also be declared against races as a whole.
For example the grudge that started the war of vengeance was called against all elfen settlement in the old world.
Not against asur or druki (yes the difference was know).
In the long history of war against the skaven some grudges would very much be against the council of 13 or some clan, others would be more against the skaven as a race.
Still given how Rattacus rebelion played out I Just do not belive we could ammas a meaningfull number of skaven and get them to be decent enough people to matter.
Keep in mind even if we could educate skaven (personaly I think we will have to play with their DNA first) our skaven could not use the current broodmothers and would thus be horribly outnumbered against the under empire and hated by the horned rat.
They will probably have to rely on us so much to effectivly be our own citizen anyway.
Just worst at evrything aside warpstone manipulation.
I mean, I can also see a scenario where the Council of Thirteen is desperate enough to fuck with Nagash that they decide to send some people in to make sure he gets screwed over, and also gain intelligence and maybe steal some stuff while they're at it. Part of the price for these guys might be an increase in Skaven wariness.
Considering these guys have Warp Cannons and Warpblades, I don't think they're 'rando escaped Skaven Slaves' They might genuinely be Clan Eshin Assassins and Clan Skryre engineers that had a fallout, but might also be a case of the Co13 going 'enemy of my enemy'
Not really true, grudges can be declared against states clan kindoms or other politcaly entities, they can also be declared against races as a whole.
For example the grudge that started the war of vengeance was called against all elfen settlement in the old world.
If that were the case we would have started out at war with the Eonir and we did not. As soon as the dwarfs figured out that the Wood Elves were not high elves the ban on settlements in the old world no longer applied to them as far as the dwarfs were concerned. Mind it would be a lot harder for Skaven to prove the same, but in theory they should be able to do so.
Could be, also I am going to point out that the skaven do not have a history of stabbing necromancers, they do have an history of making weapons for humans that stab necromancers .
It Is fully possibile that the rate in the ratcatchers are spy told to play ball.
If that were the case we would have started out at war with the Eonir and we did not. As soon as the dwarfs figured out that the Wood Elves were not high elves the ban on settlements in the old world no longer applied to them as far as the dwarfs were concerned. Mind it would be a lot harder for Skaven to prove the same, but in theory they should be able to do so.
No, the king declared the grudge satisfied at tor Alessi, the dawi knew of the wood elfes, but the declaration of the satisfaction and the losses incured when they did actualy try to wipe out the wood elfes convinced the dawi to stop, plus you know they were tired of war.
Also the war was technically against the cities not against roaming elven settlement.
Immediatly after the war the settlement of either group of wood elfes where refugee camps, and they still tried to raze aten loren.
The war against laurelon did not restart because restarting would mean declaring Starbreaker an idiot.
No, the king declared the grudge satisfied at tor Alessi, the dawi knew of the wood elfes, but the declaration of the satisfaction and the losses incured when they did actualy try to wipe out the wood elfes convinced the dawi to stop, plus you know they were tired of war.
Also the war was technically against the cities not against roaming elven settlement.
Immediatly after the war the settlement of either group of wood elfes where refugee camps, and they still tried to raze aten loren.
The war against laurelon did not restart because restarting would mean declaring Starbreaker an idiot.
The high king could not possibility have known about the wood elves after Tor Alessi since there were no wood elves then, they only started existing after Aethis the Poet called all the colonists to Ulthuan and they told him to fuck off. The timeline doesn't work with how you are presenting it.
Yes he did not know of them as the asrai/ wood elfes, he did know about the exsistance of colums of refugees going around in Aldankor that would not just vanish if left alone.
I used the modern term as a way to explain faster.
Still the elfes living in athel loren did get assaulted by the dawi pretty early, so I would say this proves the original point that even tho It Is possibile to level grudes against political distint groups It Is also possibile to do It against species as a whole.
Whic the skaven would have at this point.
Granted this also proves that It Is possibile to turn a grudge against a specie into a satisfied one without wiping out all the members of the species in the region.
Yes he did not know of them as the asrai/ wood elfes, he did know about the exsistance of colums of refugees going around in Aldankor that would not just vanish if left alone.
I used the modern term as a way to explain faster.
Still the elfes living in athel loren did get assaulted by the dawi pretty early, so I would say this proves the original point that even tho It Is possibile to level grudes against political distint groups It Is also possibile to do It against species as a whole.
Whic the skaven would have at this point.
Granted this also proves that It Is possibile to turn a grudge against a specie into a satisfied one without wiping out all the members of the species in the region.
Dwarfs would have no reason to care if those were refugees or not, it's not like warhammer has the Geneva Convention. As long as they were subjects of the Pheonix Throne in the Old World the dwarfs wanted them dead. At some point the figured out they were their own polity and so would no longer be connected to the demands of the war, though the Asrai quickly started racking up some of their own grudges, nothing to involve the High King though.
You are correct in the sense that those refugee were activly being hunted.
However the war ended even when they knew they were still alive in aldankor, because the point of the war was to wipe out settlement, something that running refugee are not.
When they did stop and started a meaningfull settlement the war was already declared over.
Still they got Attacked immediatly after anyway because thane old guy on mining clan number 7 does not actualy care about Tetlis or Starbreaker and his decree and half his uncles died figthing elfs and sure as hell he also has a bone to pick with them.
You are correct in the sense that those refugee were activly being hunted.
However the war ended even when they knew they were still alive in aldankor, because the point of the war was to wipe out settlement, something that running refugee are not.
When they did stop and started a meaningfull settlement the war was already declared over.
Still they got Attacked immediatly after anyway because thane old guy on mining clan number 7 does not actualy care about Tetlis or Starbreaker and his decree and half his uncles died figthing elfs and sure as hell he also has a bone to pick with them.
Thane old guy isn't responsible for the grudges of the Karaz Ankor and if he gets killed because he just hates elves that's on his clan in the same ways the crazy elves running around with a cloak of beard were on their own. I'm not saying no dwarf has ever attacked an elf for purely speciaist reasons, just that the Karaz Ankor doesn't operate like that formally, they have grudges with polities not species.
Not really, if thane old guy declare a grudge (something he can do at any time and against what he want) his king has to decide if add It to the grudgelist of the hold, if this happen then as soon as possibile the hig king himself has to record It in the damaz kron with his blood.
The hig king has then to work against stricking It out, It Is currently unclear if/how the hig king can decide to apply weregild and blood.
Notable examples of grudges that contradict you tesis.
Page 53 dwarf armybook 7ed grude leveled against the spirit of the forest of Athel Loren.
Not really a political entity.
Page 199 big rulebook of 8th grude against a Magnus (not that One) to decapitate him since Magnus's king cut off the hand of a dawi a century prior. Personal grudges not a polity.
Page 17 of grudgelore karak azgazar levels ten thousands grudges against whole skavenkind.
Could you please give me evidence of a grudge against a whole race never being leveled?
If my proof are not enough I am going to source some more.
What passage makes you think grudges are only ever leveled against polities?
Given that they can be inherited.
This is the only one that looks like it supports the position and it should be noted that the in setting conceit of Grudgelore is that it's compiled by a human about dwarf grudges. That could simply be 'against the Underempire', but you know there's an easy way to clarify this for the purposes of this quest @Lonkas are grudges leveled against the Skaven as a species or against their polity in this quest
This is the only one that looks like it supports the position and it should be noted that the in setting conceit of Grudgelore is that it's compiled by a human about dwarf grudges. That could simply be 'against the Underempire', but you know there's an easy way to clarify this for the purposes of this quest @Lonkas are grudges leveled against the Skaven as a species or against their polity in this quest
Finally, in the great audience chamber of the Everpeak, filled more than it had been in over a millennium, Glorin Azulthrung sat upon Grungnis throne, with the Great Book of Grudges lying open, a new page displayed to the world, and in tones deep enough to command over the thunder of guns, Glorin addressed the hall.
"The Urk and Grobi" he began, his voice dripping with vile hatred and malice.
"Ten thousand, nine hundred and twelve."
He flipped a page of the vast tome.
"The Thaggorakki, seven thousand eight hundred and ninety four."
Another rustle of parchment is heard.
"The Uzkular, one thousand four hundred and nine."
Nothing but a sound could be heard as Glorin held the dwarves spellbound.
Keep in mind even if we could educate skaven (personaly I think we will have to play with their DNA first) our skaven could not use the current broodmothers and would thus be horribly outnumbered against the under empire and hated by the horned rat.
Skaven at least can't be solely dependent on the broodmothers, because there was a period of at minimum, several skaven generations in which they lacked the broodmothers completely, back when they were cave-rats in the ruins of Tylos.
Dwarfs would have no reason to care if those were refugees or not, it's not like warhammer has the Geneva Convention. As long as they were subjects of the Pheonix Throne in the Old World the dwarfs wanted them dead. At some point the figured out they were their own polity and so would no longer be connected to the demands of the war, though the Asrai quickly started racking up some of their own grudges, nothing to involve the High King though.
I think that the dwarves tried to continue exercising their Grudge against the surviving elves of the Old World, but after getting their asses kicked a couple of times combined with the overwhelming threat of migrating greenskins and emerging skaven they pragmatically recognised the elven successor kingdoms as separate polities.
I think it was less of a free choice and more something that were driven in order to survive.
Skaven at least can't be solely dependent on the broodmothers, because there was a period of at minimum, several skaven generations in which they lacked the broodmothers completely, back when they were cave-rats in the ruins of Tylos.
As a form of social control. Mind I do think it is faster, but making it so the very act of reproduction is controlled by the clan thus centralizing the education of every single member of their society does allow said clans an unparalleled ability to imprint their culture and that of the wider Underempire on every Skaven.
Yes I also agree with your point but again.
Broodmothers are faster.
I do belive the ammount of effort neded to create large friendly skaven to soak up attrition would require so much resources that we are better of tryng to create human pop in our hold to do the same, we are alteady kinda doing this.
Granted I suspect the ammount of resources needed even for the human Is still beyond the point of us having finished the quest.
Even if Broodmothers didn't start out biologically different from a regular female skaven, they would still be faster.
Litter size: Skaven probably have drugs that lead to litters on the higher end of what is normal. If we take rats, with an average litter size of 8-18, broodmothers always have litters of 18. Regardless of what it does to the broodmother's health. Halving that or quartering that would still be a phenomenal birth rate.
Constantly pregnant: A regular skaven would not be constantly pregnant, while a broodmother probably is. Regardless of what it does to the broodmother's health...
No nurturing: Related to the constantly pregnant point. Division of labor. They have other skaven take care of the young (for a given value of care). A non-broodmother skaven would need to do some nurturing of her babies.
Away from danger: Skaven broodmothers are the second best protected "caste". Regular female skaven do not have that level of protection, so there is a higher mortality rate there.
Then factor in that clan moulder exists, so the drugs skaven have available would do more than just maximize the number of rats per birth.
A Vampire slain, or close enough to that it makes no difference, and the entrance to Drazh taken at long last. The hundreds of grudges avenged from that act alone satiated his heart and warmed him thoroughly, and he hoped it did the same for all those who now dwelt in the Underearth as the price of the victory.
This was the second of the great arteries that fed foes into this reborn Kingdom of the Dawi, and one that he could gladly say would now accept allies in their place—if such could be spared from the nations assisting them. Few indeed would prefer to come by foot rather than the train that fed into the cistern, however, protected as it was from the predations of the Grobi and Urk. Still though the Warrens teemed with Innumerable Grobi, and there were still foes aplenty within the Karak which had yet to face his wrath
Silently, he watched as the teams of Dawi below slowly assembled one of the two great war balloons that would soon sail high above the Karak, spying any foes near and far who would attempt to approach the Karak by land. As the great bags inflated and the runework activated, the heavily armoured carriage slowly lifted into the air, loaded for dragon attack should any of the nearby Drakk take issue with their reborn claim to the Black Crag. Glorin took a moment to admire the courage of its crew of nearly fifty Dawi, who would abandon even the earth itself for a time to protect their brother dwarves—even if he scoffed at their suicidal bravery in trusting mere hot air to keep them aloft.
Satisfied, however, he, with a grim smirk, turned from their ascent and returned deeper into the mines, taking comfort in the grand batteries of cannon, bolt throwers, and lesser arms that once again rendered the front of the Karak near-impregnable to breach.
Forces Available
Name
Description
Misc
Numbers
Casualties
Glorin Azulthrong, High King of the Karaz Ankor
The High King, his hammerer bodyguard and Bolghruki if possible
Takes very effective command wherever he is
1k
160
The High Throng
Extremely high quality, gromril armoured dwarfen warriors
Elder Runic Equipment
10k
1.9k
The Throng of Vengeance
Extremely high quality, very well armoured dwarfen warriors
Runic Equipment
10k
1.9k
The Throngs of The Ankor
Good quality Dwarfen soldiery,
Enhanced Equipment, will be repleneshd largely from the Everpeak and Varr for this campaign
150k
17.6k
Runic Destroyers
Runic-mechanical death golems
4 charges
800
200
The Klad Karu
Extremely high quality human soldiers, focus on cavalry
Runic Equipment
10k
1.8k
The Dawrgarazel
Extremely high quality human soldiers, focus on firearms and siegebreaking
Runic Equipment
10k
1.8k
The Stancati Dawrsworn
Very high quality human soldiers
17.2k
2.8k
Reikland Dienstmen
Good quality human Soldiery
Must be used on the surface
42.4k
7.6k
Various Adventurers
mixed (averaging below average) human soldiery
10k
8.6k
1.4k
The Company of Prince Anhaldis
An elven princelings expeditionary force
More effective on the surface, 1 use
1k
a few
The Ratcatchers
Good quality human Soldiery (maybe some very few skaven)
Can fight underground without penalty
11.7k
3.3k
The Restless of Wulfrick
Good quality human Soldiery Norscan adventurers
Every time they participate in battle they replenish 1000 soldiers
13.8k
2.1k
The Flames of old Rahid
Good quality human Soldiery Arabyan death seekers, led be Efreet
Efreet may be expended for one destroyer charge, Are superior undead fighters
12.6k
2.4k
You have the following Fortifications
The Gates (1) - (1 level) Pointed at the ramp (2)
The Ramp (2) - (1 level) Pointed at the surface
The Northern galleries (14) - (1 level) pointed at the audience hall (19)
The Northern galleries (14) - (1 level) pointed at The Greenskin Tunnels
The Northern galleries (14) - (1 level) pointed at the Mashalling ground (13)
The Banking District (5) - (1 level) the secret passage to the Ancestral Tombs (15)
The Banking District (5) - (1 level) The Western Residences (4)
Campaigning options
Campaigns last 1 week
you have 4 supplies available
All forces unallocated will be focussed on defending your territory
To the Temple.
Cross the no-mans land of your own creation and carry forward into the marshalling district and finally onto the avenue of the ancestors. Here to claim the temple of Gazul, so that he may lend his might to the conquest of so ancient and stories a hold.
[ ] What forces do you send on this battle? (Max 50000)
[ ] Straight to the Top
drive upwards through the heavily fortified royal avenue into the ancient heart of the old Karak. Then, capturing the ancient audience hall of the King of Drazh, we can choose if we wish to continue onward to the waystone, the treasury or the heart of the hold where the story of Drazh first took shape.
[ ] What forces do you send in this battle? (Max 50000)
Should your breach the audience hall do you continue onwards pick any combination of the below, forces will be split evenly
[ ] The Treasury (17)
[ ] The Royal Chambers [16]
[ ] The waystone [18]
[ ] Hold and dig in (Mutually exclusive with all others)
[ ] Straight to the Top (from the rear)
drive upwards into the ancient heart of the old Karak via the secret aqueduct that your rangers revealed to you. Giving you access to the ancient tombs that have been so defiled by their current black orc overlords. Hopefully taking them by surprise. From there It is a matter to choose only to press onward to the Treasury and royal residence itself or to stay our hand
[ ] What forces do you send in this battle? (Max 50000)
Should you breach the ancient tombs do you continue onwards?
[ ] The Treasury (17)
[ ] The Royal Chambers [16]
[ ] Hold and dig in (Mutually exclusive with all others)
[ ] Into The Thunderdome
With the banking district now in your hands a plunge can be made into the hotly contested industrial heart of the old Karak. Joining and trying to take advantage of the ongoing free for all battle between the three sides presently engaged
[ ] What forces do you send in this battle? (Max 50000)
Once you breach into the old residences, where will you go further? Directly to the Mines
[ ] Southern residences (3)
[ ] South western Industry (6)
[ ] North western Industry (9)
[ ] Eastern residences (11)
[ ] Hold and dig in
[ ] Advance Into the hold
With the Gatehouse itself now secure and the undead threat Quiescent, we can turn to the greenskins as thedesecrators of our ancient home. Marching through the avenues that once brought thousands of Dawi into the hold. But this time they shall again, as we sweep like an avalanche into the hold.
[ ] What forces do you send in this battle? (Max 50000)
Once you breach into the old residences, where will you go further? Directly to the Mines
[ ] South Western Industry (3)
[ ] South Eastern Industry (3)
[ ] Temple District (6)
[ ] Eastern Residences (11)
[ ] Western Residences (4)
[ ] Hold and dig in
[ ] Breach The Mines
With the tunnel surreptitiously dug, it would just take a single large explosive to collapse the remainder of the tunnel between yourselves and the Grobi within old Mineshaft 3, the Galazgrung, set the Ironbreakers loose within their natural habitat.
[ ] What forces do you send in this battle? (Max 50000)
Once you breach into the Galazgrung, where will you go further?
[ ] Up the grung (M3 - 1)
[ ] Down the grung (M3 - 4)
[ ] Along the grung (M3 - 3)
[ ] To the Gorakgrung (M2 - 3)
[ ] Inderdict the legions
Send forth an army into the stretch of a few dozen miles between Kazakh Drazh and The Queen of the Silver Depths currently held by Nagash. From which his forces currently stream to reinforce his forces in the conquest he has embarked upon. Make death pass your battlefield and ensure that as few as possible of those reinforcements actually reach the Black Crag.
[ ] What forces do you send on this battle? (Max 50000)
There are other activities one can perform in a warzone like this, ways to strengthen your position and weaken others.
[ ] Fortify a Front
You brought with you an abundance of powder, shot, metal, and stone with which you can use to fortify your gains and stop any bleeding that will come from the enemy's continual assaults in this area.
[ ] Choose a frontline to fortify (Costs 1 supply) (May be done up to 3 times on any particular front)- only a single layer may be applied at a time
[ ] Destroy a Tunnel
From the tunnels of the enemy pour forth a host of vermin, all with the unified intent to take for themselves the ancient hold of our kingdom. Smash their tunnels and, at least for a time, find some relief from their relentless assaults.
[ ] Choose a tunnel (a red line) to collapse (Costs 1 supply)
[ ] Excavate a Tunnel
You are the Dawi. You were born among the mountains, and every one of your host has spent at the very least two full years in the mines—and for the vast majority, many more. Take up your pick and your blasting powder and clear a path through the rock.
[ ] Which two neighboring tunnels (within the mines themselves) do you wish to connect, creating a new red line between them and their exit (Costs 1 supply) (At least one point must be owned by you)
[ ] Remove fortification
Sometimes fronts move and change requiring a re-allocation of materials, dismatle your fortifications to regain most of what was spent
(80% changce to regain a point of supply)
[ ] Which fortifications will you remove (can do one layer at a time)
