The Game of Crusading Thrones, Self-Insert Edition (GoT CK2)

[X] Prevent the theft
-[X] Just be blatant about it. If she wanted a press, she could have damn well asked! This will be nearly impossible to mess up since you will know the plan, but it has a small risk of upsetting her if some of her best men are killed or wounded.

Argella being upset, what does that mean exactly? Say we prevent the theft. She loses men, we could even "interrogate" them to find out who sent them, and sent her a very strong worded message. Why, because she'll be embarrassed?

I want you all to think what would have happened if our spies didn't catch wind of the plot. She might have been above suspicion just because we're allies. She would have pulled one over us and have gotten away with it, our supposed ally.

And we'll reward that sort of behavior?
 
[X] Prevent the theft
-[X] Just be blatant about it. If she wanted a press, she could have damn well asked! This will be nearly impossible to mess up since you will know the plan, but it has a small risk of upsetting her if some of her best men are killed or wounded.
 
Argella being upset, what does that mean exactly? Say we prevent the theft. She loses men, we could even "interrogate" them to find out who sent them, and sent her a very strong worded message. Why, because she'll be embarrassed?

I want you all to think what would have happened if our spies didn't catch wind of the plot. She might have been above suspicion just because we're allies. She would have pulled one over us and have gotten away with it, our supposed ally.

And we'll reward that sort of behavior?
In a word, yes. She had the will to do this. Also people seem to be throwing away a clear and advantageous tool for us here. We know who her spies are, we know the cipher for how the spies communicate. We can use this to usurp her spy network and gain another tool.
 
Argella being upset, what does that mean exactly? Say we prevent the theft. She loses men, we could even "interrogate" them to find out who sent them, and sent her a very strong worded message. Why, because she'll be embarrassed?

I want you all to think what would have happened if our spies didn't catch wind of the plot. She might have been above suspicion just because we're allies. She would have pulled one over us and have gotten away with it, our supposed ally.

And we'll reward that sort of behavior?

My plan wasn't about punishment or reward. It is simply a two-fold stroke. The first stroke would be to give her a gift. Something she desires. We give it to her so that she feels indebted to us and a little guilty. With that, we can then ask for all the lore in her land and kingdom. That way we have more lore for our library and maybe even some new rituals and magic. The second stroke is to keep her spies in the land rather than disappear into the shadows after being caught. We keep an eye on the spies and we can catch any more hostile actions toward us. Also to use it to get info in our own lands. Basically use her network to our advantage.
 
In a word, yes. She had the will to do this. Also people seem to be throwing away a clear and advantageous tool for us here. We know who her spies are, we know the cipher for how the spies communicate. We can use this to usurp her spy network and gain another tool.
My plan wasn't about punishment or reward. It is simply a two-fold stroke. The first stroke would be to give her a gift. Something she desires. We give it to her so that she feels indebted to us and a little guilty. With that, we can then ask for all the lore in her land and kingdom. That way we have more lore for our library and maybe even some new rituals and magic. The second stroke is to keep her spies in the land rather than disappear into the shadows after being caught. We keep an eye on the spies and we can catch any more hostile actions toward us. Also to use it to get info in our own lands. Basically use her network to our advantage.

That's all well and good but it would cost us our monopoly on printing, which is unacceptable.
Besides, ciphers change regularly anyway, or they do if you're half competent at your job.
 
That's all well and good but it would cost us our monopoly on printing, which is unacceptable.
Besides, ciphers change regularly anyway, or they do if you're half competent at your job.
Here's the thing about the cipher argument. In the modern world it is semi easy to change a cipher. In a setting without fast communication no it's not. And even then once you crack the pattern it becomes much easier to actually understand the next code. What I'm saying is that people are acting like the cipher is a game breaker. When it really isn't.
 
[X] Send her a printing press...
-[X] For books. The library of Storm's End is probably about as old as the one in Winterfell, and Durradons of old warred with the Children of the Forest and perhaps other creatures and other gods as well. It would be a simple argument as well. (DC 10)

[X] Plan Plausable Deniability
[X] Plan: Friendly Reveal

Approval voting because I am okay with all three of the above options while I dislike preventing the theft.

It risks our good relations with the Stormlands that would be useful for our fight with the Ironborn. I am perfectly fine with them getting the printing press, while I would very much like access to the lore they have. Basically we would be shooting both Torrhen and Argella in the foot to teach her a lesson, and that's just not worth it.
 
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That's all well and good but it would cost us our monopoly on printing, which is unacceptable.
Why? Note that we won't be able to keep it secret for long anyway, unless you want to force all our printers to stay in the North so that noone else can hire them and just ask them how the press works. Do you plan to become a bookseller in the near future?
 
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[X] Send her a printing press.
-[X] Claim it was a gift and an attempt to further the flow of knowledge
-[X] Request the copies of books in Storms End and the Stormlands to further this flow and better future relations.
-[X] The spies are not to be mentioned. At all. This is a gift.
 
That's all well and good but it would cost us our monopoly on printing, which is unacceptable.
Besides, ciphers change regularly anyway, or they do if you're half competent at your job.

The monopoly on printing isn't going to last. In fact, it is already known to everyone where it is. Sooner or later it will either be stolen or replicated and then we got nothing else out of it. I would rather squeeze one more diplomatic favour out of said monopoly than just have it go with nothing to show for it.

Edit: Also as noted above Ciphers are easy to change in the modern world with the instantaneous communication we have. Much harder to change when the fastest form of communication is a bird.
 
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[X] Prevent the theft
-[X] Just be blatant about it. If she wanted a press, she could have damn well asked! This will be nearly impossible to mess up since you will know the plan, but it has a small risk of upsetting her if some of her best men are killed or wounded.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Ptolemy on Mar 23, 2020 at 10:02 AM, finished with 61 posts and 26 votes.

  • [X] Prevent the theft
    -[X] Just be blatant about it. If she wanted a press, she could have damn well asked! This will be nearly impossible to mess up since you will know the plan, but it has a small risk of upsetting her if some of her best men are killed or wounded.
    [X] Plan: Friendly Reveal
    -[X] Send her a printing press.
    --[X] Request copies of books in Storms End and the Stormlands in exchange, as "payment" for attempting to steal it.
    --[X] Acknowledge that we know about her plot, but that we aren't angry, and instead are merely disappointed that she didn't think to ask, as had she done so we would happily have sent one to her as a token of friendship.
    --[X] Caution her to be careful of revealing the Printing Press, since it may provoke the enmity of the Citadel by threatening to upend their hold on knowledge.
    --[X] In the name of friendship between our two kingdoms, we request that she not plan or execute any such hostile missions again in future, and warn that if she does we will not be so forgiving and magnanimous.
    --[X] However, we will not begrudge her some spies to keep an eye on us, provided that she will accept the same, with the understanding that neither of us will work to compromise the other through espionage.
    --[X] Since our interests are aligned against Harren and Loren, we should both share the information we've gathered on them with each other.
    --[X] Should the Stormlands wish for knowledge of our discoveries and inventions in future, they are welcome to trade for them, and we would particularly welcome any offer of books and lore as payment.
    --[X] Suggest that beyond the cordial relations and cooperation we have proposed, Argella and her father may wish to consider an even closer relationship between the Stormlands and the North.
    [X] Send her a printing press.
    -[X] Claim it was a gift and an attempt to further the flow of knowledge
    -[X] Request the copies of books in Storms End and the Stormlands to further this flow and better future relations.
    -[X] The spies are not to be mentioned. At all. This is a gift.
    [X] Prevent the theft
    -[X] Try and do it subtly. It will be difficult, but you could perhaps arrange for a series of "coincidences" to foil their scheme. (DC 70)
    [X] Send her a printing press.
    -[X] Claim it was a gift and an attempt to further the flow of knowledge
    -[X] Request the copies of books in Storms End and the Stormlands to further this flow and better future relations.
    -[X] The spies are not to be mentioned. At all. This is a gift.
    --[X] [Speech/Note] To the Honorable Princess Argella Durrandon, Daughter to the Storm King, Regent of the Stormlands I, King Torrhen Stark King in the North, would freely give unto the Kingdom of the Stormlands the invention of the printing press in the hopes of furthering ties between our two kingdoms and to further spread knowledge throughout both our realms. All we ask in return is knowledge and tomes from throughout your kingdom so as to both preserve and spread the knowledge and histories of the realm as well as to prepare for any threats that may be coming in these strange times which have befallen our kingdoms. I hope for this gift to be the start of a long and prospering relationship between our two kingdoms. Sincerely King Torrhen Stark, King in the North
    [X] Send her a printing press.
    -[X] For books. The library of Storm's End is probably about as old as the one in Winterfell, and Durradons of old warred with the Children of the Forest and perhaps other creatures and other gods as well. It would be a simple argument as well. (DC 10)
    [X] Plan Plausable Deniability
    -[X] Send her a printing press.
    --[X] Claim it was a gift and an attempt to further the flow of knowledge
    --[X] Request the copies of books in Storms End and the Stormlands to further this flow and better future relations.
    --[X] The spies are not to be mentioned. At all. This is a gift.
    ---[X][Speech/Note] Storm's blessings upon you Lady Argella Durrandon,
 
So this vote is just all fractured.

11 people want to prevent the theft, with 2 wanting to do it subtly.

17 people want to essentially trade the printing press for books, but with two big divisions:

10 of the 17 people want to send her the printing press and ask for books in return, without revealing we know about her spies, but with splintered details of the plans

7 of the 17 People want to reveal that we know about her spies, and have a bunch of details about not revealing the printing press to others.

This is a problem as a clear majority want to trade the press for books, but are all divided about how to do it.

It also seems a slight majority do not care about revealing that we know about her spies, but a significant minority don't - but that might be misleading if the other question is being given higher priority among the voters.

@notbirdofprey How would you handle this kind of splintered vote? And also, can you give us some time to try and consolidate a little?

Could we perhaps allow preference voting between:

[] Prevent theft, blatant
[] Prevent theft, subtle
[] Trade press for books, subtle
[] Trade press for books, blatant

Subtle means not revealing we know about her spies (with a DC), and maybe give us the DC of the main actions as well? (!0 DC for books from Storm's End, 50 DC for books from Stormlands, or whatever it is)

That way we can just vote on the key issues, instead of being splintered by all the details?
 
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I think being able to read the Stormlands' secret messages to see what they know and which weak points of our system they're exploiting is the best prize we can get from this. I don't think the QM would offer them to us if they were so short-lived that we couldn't benefit from them.

Books for the library, we can always buy them or trade for them later, specially if Argella using the press to make copies makes them cheaper and less unique.

The press is useful, but not critical for the North. We don't really lose income. And having a second rival source of knowledge, which is also nearer to their territory, may divert away a lot of the Citadel's attention and resources.

EDIT: Changing my vote after seeing the tally. No one else seems interested in the codes.
 
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[X] Prevent the theft
-[X] Just be blatant about it. If she wanted a press, she could have damn well asked! This will be nearly impossible to mess up since you will know the plan, but it has a small risk of upsetting her if some of her best men are killed or wounded.
We would look like fools,who are ready to do anything and forgive any slight from anyone if we send her a printing press.Dont forget the lannister behavior before twyn and the rains of castamere as a consequence.
This is not the modern world,where we share the knowledge,this is a worse version of the medieval world,where every person and family try to gain an advantage over the others,where today ally is tomorrow enemy.And we arent even part of the same kingdom,we are separate so any advantage we give to someone else will be used against us.
To send this type of invention outside of our family when we didnt have a monopoly on this type of trade is to shot ourselves in the foot,to loose a source of income.If they sent spies to steal it means that they understand what they could do with something like this and we may loose an important source of income and influence.
And if we are trully allies,she shouldnt try something like this.You may spy for general information but tehnology theft is an enemy action not an ally.
For storm books we can offer to make copy of any book she want for free if either we can keep a copy for ourselves or we receive other book of our choice to copy.
[X] Prevent the theft
-[X] Just be blatant about it. If she wanted a press, she could have damn well asked! This will be nearly impossible to mess up since you will know the plan, but it has a small risk of upsetting her if some of her best men are killed or wounded.

Argella being upset, what does that mean exactly? Say we prevent the theft. She loses men, we could even "interrogate" them to find out who sent them, and sent her a very strong worded message. Why, because she'll be embarrassed?

I want you all to think what would have happened if our spies didn't catch wind of the plot. She might have been above suspicion just because we're allies. She would have pulled one over us and have gotten away with it, our supposed ally.

And we'll reward that sort of behavior?
A few points:

1. Killing her spies for this would be completely justified, but it would also worsen relations between us. Considering that we want/need allies willing to work with us against Harren and Loren, establishing frosty relations with a power who shares our interests is a bad idea, since it weakens our ability to keep the two of them in check.

2. The monopoly on the Printing Press won't last, and if we want it to have the biggest possible impact on trade, literacy, and general social and technological progress, then we won't want it to. Added to that, books aren't useful if there's no one to read them, and we won't be able to gain books so easily so long as they're expensive, time-consuming, and difficult to produce. For now building up our advantage makes sense, but giving it to one party who will also want to keep it under wraps for the time being won't jeapordise its broader utility.

3. Responding brutally, rather than inviting diplomacy, actually encourages her to continue this. Rather than suggesting friendly cooperation and mutual benefit, it's instead reinforcing hostility and the fact that "today's ally is tomorrow's enemy". Using this sort of logic to disavow and discourage friendly cooperation means that she's actually completely right to do what she's done, and to keep doing it.

4. It's pretty damn hypocritical to be angry about her spying on us, considering we're literally doing exactly to the same to our own allies, and to our loyal subjects.

5. You're taking things far too personally. This is Great Power politics we're talking about here - this kind of thing is par for the course, because fundamentally personal feelings, pride, and even morals are all irrelevant, and need to be set aside in favour of the interests of the entire country and the greater good. It's a simple fact that allies spy on each other, because they can't afford to blindly trust in anyone, and they can't lose sight of their own interests. Even under Obama, the NSA literally tapped Merkel's mobile phone, and it didn't change the fact that the US and Germany still worked together, even if it was embarassing that it became public knowledge.

You need to decide whether keeping a temporary advantage and our pride is more important than having an ally to work with us against Harren and Loren, and who can offer trade, information, and other assistance besides. What you're suggesting here could potentially mean that tens of thousands more Riverlanders, Valemen, and Northmen die fighting Harren, for example, all because we decided to throw a tantrum rather than thinking about the bigger picture.
 
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Argella being upset, what does that mean exactly? Say we prevent the theft. She loses men, we could even "interrogate" them to find out who sent them, and sent her a very strong worded message. Why, because she'll be embarrassed?

I want you all to think what would have happened if our spies didn't catch wind of the plot. She might have been above suspicion just because we're allies. She would have pulled one over us and have gotten away with it, our supposed ally.

And we'll reward that sort of behavior?
Well, Argella might be upset becausde she considers killing her spies to be an overreaction, as would I. Not to speak of torturing them first, as you seem to insinuate we should do.

And what would have been so horrible if she had gotten away with it? Is it really that important to keep the printing press secret for a few more years? What reason do we have to get angry except that the theft would have been embarrassing, which is understandable, but not sensible.

Though I will concede one point: Argilla shoudn't get a special advantage from her attempted spying, so I propose we give the press to the Vale for free. That should send a pretty clear message.
 
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Well, Argella might be upset becausde she considers killing her spies to be an overreaction, as would I. Not to speak of torturing them first, as you seem to insinuate we should do.

And what would have been so horrible if she had gotten away with it? Is it really that important to keep the printing press secret for a few more years? What reason do we have to get angry except that the theft would have been embarrassing, which is understandable, but not sensible.

Though I will concede one point: Argilla shoudn't get a special advantage from her attempted spying, so I propose we give the press to the Vale for free. That should send a pretty clear message.
I agree with everything else, but...it's a pretty bold assumption that the Vale hasn't been spying on us. Unless there's knowledge to the contrary, in which case I'll shut up :)
 
[X] Plan: Friendly Reveal

Changing my vote to this. At the very least, I don't want a direct confrontation from this SNAFU. As things stand right now, I'd rather lose a minor boon and try to profit from it than creating another enemy. It may seem weak on our part, but with Harren, Loren, and the Greyjoys as immediate problems, with the Citadel and the Targaryens being likely to become such in the medium-term, I don't want to incite Argella to bring her A-game against us. Less when we're running to catch up to be ready for the Ironborn War and strapped for cash. Let her have this victory, it doesn't really harm us other than maybe our pride.
 
I agree with everything else, but...it's a pretty bold assumption that the Vale hasn't been spying on us.
Oh sure they have been spying on us, but maybe they have confined themselves to information gathering and stayed away from industrial espionage. The former I am completely okay with, while the latter is somewhat problematic. (Though still not bad enough to necessitate retribution, especially as there was no harm done.)
 
1. Killing her spies for this would be completely justified, but it would also worsen relations between us.
How are we at fault for defending our property?
4. It's pretty damn hypocritical to be angry about her spying on us, considering we're literally doing exactly to the same to our own allies, and to our loyal subjects.
We're spying, not stealing.
5. You're taking things far too personally.
I'm thinking like Tywin on this one. If we allow other Houses to attack us without reprisal, then we are not a House to be feared. Fear in this case, is a deterrent against future hostile actions against us.
Well, Argella might be upset becausde she considers killing her spies to be an overreaction, as would I. Not to speak of torturing them first, as you seem to insinuate we should do.
We already know their plan, why should we torture them? But if Argella thinks: "Is he onto me? If so, how did he find out? He must have interrogated my spies." Whereas we already know the truth.
Though I will concede one point: Argilla shoudn't get a special advantage from her attempted spying, so I propose we give the press to the Vale for free. That should send a pretty clear message.
Yes, exactly. Sharra treated with us in good faith. That is to be rewarded. Still not for free, though. Trade, trade everyone!
 
How are we at fault for defending our property?We're spying, not stealing.I'm thinking like Tywin on this one. If we allow other Houses to attack us without reprisal, then we are not a House to be feared. Fear in this case, is a deterrent against future hostile actions against us.We already know their plan, why should we torture them? But if Argella thinks: "Is he onto me? If so, how did he find out? He must have interrogated my spies." Whereas we already know the truth.Yes, exactly. Sharra treated with us in good faith. That is to be rewarded. Still not for free, though. Trade, trade everyone!
1. I'm not saying we're at fault, I'm saying it will hurt relations with the Stormlands, and get in the way of further beneficial cooperation.

2. That's a pretty semantic point, which ignores the fact that it's espionage regardless.

3. This is nothing like Tywin, and if you decided to make it so that would arguably be worse. Tywin was successful because everyone knew what he'd done, and he'd eliminated any enemies he had in the process. For this to be like Castamere, we'd need to publicly execute them, or hang up their bodies, and tell everyone what had happened. That would send a message, sure. But it would also absolutely destroy any chances for a good relationship with the Stormlands forever, and would also create a powerful enemy. That's not something Tywin would do, because he wasn't stupid enough to value pride above great power politics and political necessity.
 
This is medieval world,torturing is normal to gain information,not to punish.Book monopoly will hold as no worker know exactly how the press is built.
Stormland can trade and gain favors with the citadel so we lost a major diplomatic tool with the citadel.
Our interest is to our house and our kingdom,not other kingdoms. And you seem to forgetthat in this period a kingdom is loose colection of noble houses with various purpose,loyalities and likes.So to give someone a tool that can be used against us is stupid.
 
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