The Ethics of Seeking Utopia
- Thread starter BobTheNinja
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Nerx
Chikin Noodle
- Location
- Sunda Kelapa
Everyone a drone doing their part in a smooth system, may have less character but it does reduce the bickering.@Nerx has it. A utopia would be full of ppls that get along. No more fighting. No more housemates that hate u, or ppls that hate ur lifestyle. Just ppls getting along w/o... free will? Ha ha.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
Arguably. The problem is most of the alternatives would have to be pretty dire ("rewire humanity into a utopia forcibly or everyone dies/human society regresses to the stone age/Thanos kills half of you"), and it would be a permanent fix for a temporary problem. Once utopia exists the gun will be removed, presumably, because either it was the result of a non-utopian society or because a utopian society means one that is going to be perfectly unified and completely mobilized against the threat to its existence. Once the gun is gone, the means used to transform humanity by suppressing its individual desires and experiences are no longer justifiable and the only moral action left is to undo the transformation if possible.
There are actually 2 types of Utopia IMO, the "End of History Utopia" and the "Utopia Further Beyond"
The End of History Utopia is one where the lowest person(s) on Earth has a standard of living equivalent to a Middle Class person living in Sweden, with the rights that go along with that level of privilege as well . There is still suffering and unfairness in the world of course, but no one would say that the powers that be are not doing their job. This is the kind of Utopia that the Communists strove for, and which tragically fell short.
The Utopia Further Beyond eliminates the concept of both suffering and boredom. Think of Buddha's description of what Nirvana is like and you've got a picture of what this Utopia looks like. Obviously, the very laws of existence are radically different in this realm...
Both Utopias are worth striving for, but I'd argue that significant sacrifices in the name of The Utopia Further Beyond are to be avoided espicially if the End of History Utopia already exists.
The End of History Utopia is one where the lowest person(s) on Earth has a standard of living equivalent to a Middle Class person living in Sweden, with the rights that go along with that level of privilege as well . There is still suffering and unfairness in the world of course, but no one would say that the powers that be are not doing their job. This is the kind of Utopia that the Communists strove for, and which tragically fell short.
The Utopia Further Beyond eliminates the concept of both suffering and boredom. Think of Buddha's description of what Nirvana is like and you've got a picture of what this Utopia looks like. Obviously, the very laws of existence are radically different in this realm...
Both Utopias are worth striving for, but I'd argue that significant sacrifices in the name of The Utopia Further Beyond are to be avoided espicially if the End of History Utopia already exists.
- Location
- Los Angles
Would Thanos's plan be considered Utopian nature?
- Location
- Singapore
- Pronouns
- Singular They
It doesn't seem quite as far as that, to be honest. Averting the apocalypse, maybe, but that's still a ways off to utopia. Utopia might be a welcome side effect, but not the intended goal as such.
I feel like striving for a utopia that is perfect is achievable. "Perfect" could mean anything ppls agree with collectively. The largest number of ppls agreeing could create a utopia. Laws could be passed to end discrimination, there would be plenty of social services. There would be mothers who love their daughters and fathers who love their sons, because doing otherwise would be against the moral codes of a utopia. We just need to agree on what is "perfect" in large enough numbers.
- Location
- Singapore
- Pronouns
- Singular They
I feel like "utopia" should be above and beyond simply "a really good place to live", though.
I'm still working out myself what it should be in detail, but for now I'm thinking it has to at least start with "there are no problems in its initial starting state".
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Fabula Amanti
I want a Grimoire, but I got books.
- Location
- Singapore
Honestly, I think as we are now, it is very improbable to even reach utopia. Just by looking at the people at the very top in our current world it is hardly true that they are even close to achieving that kind of ideal.
Even if it is possible to reach it, I'd imagine people would become restless and do stupid things to relieve their boredom and poof goes the paradise. And that's the thing though boredom. I consider myself someone unambitious and slothful but during peaceful times in my life with no obligations or needs I feel the 'itch' to do something. For others, that would become more of a concern.
Even if it is possible to reach it, I'd imagine people would become restless and do stupid things to relieve their boredom and poof goes the paradise. And that's the thing though boredom. I consider myself someone unambitious and slothful but during peaceful times in my life with no obligations or needs I feel the 'itch' to do something. For others, that would become more of a concern.
What's the problem with a democracy voting on a utopia?
Vindictus
XENO
- Location
- Texas
All people desire 'Utopia'.
That is to say, all people form beliefs about 'what is good' through the course of their lives. Naturally, these people seek to promote the things that they believe are good, and to oppose the things that they believe are bad. Nobody hopes for the destruction of what they believe to be 'Good', or the promotion of what they believe to be 'Evil'.
However, while every person supports their vision of 'good' and opposes their vision of 'evil', not every person agrees on what 'good' and 'evil' are, or should be. The individual wills of different people end up in opposition, and clash.
Therefore, in order for one person's vision of utopia to become real, the visions of all people who disagree with it must be crushed ruthlessly. If the vision is one of immaculate mechanical precision, humans transformed into the cogs of a divine machine, than all individuals who do not wish to become clockwork automations must be crushed, coerced, and brought to heel- Or killed, whichever is more expedient. And the opposite also applies- For any other vision of utopia to become real, this 'utopia of a divine machine' must be driven into ashes and dust.
This is the secret of 'Utopia'; To create Utopia requires that the seeker dominate and destroy all who oppose it's creation. Without this act of destruction, 'Utopia' can never come to exist- And, therefore, all 'Utopias' which reject the absolute destruction of their foes are unreachable, for the act of reaching will compromise that utopian dream.
That is to say, all people form beliefs about 'what is good' through the course of their lives. Naturally, these people seek to promote the things that they believe are good, and to oppose the things that they believe are bad. Nobody hopes for the destruction of what they believe to be 'Good', or the promotion of what they believe to be 'Evil'.
However, while every person supports their vision of 'good' and opposes their vision of 'evil', not every person agrees on what 'good' and 'evil' are, or should be. The individual wills of different people end up in opposition, and clash.
Therefore, in order for one person's vision of utopia to become real, the visions of all people who disagree with it must be crushed ruthlessly. If the vision is one of immaculate mechanical precision, humans transformed into the cogs of a divine machine, than all individuals who do not wish to become clockwork automations must be crushed, coerced, and brought to heel- Or killed, whichever is more expedient. And the opposite also applies- For any other vision of utopia to become real, this 'utopia of a divine machine' must be driven into ashes and dust.
This is the secret of 'Utopia'; To create Utopia requires that the seeker dominate and destroy all who oppose it's creation. Without this act of destruction, 'Utopia' can never come to exist- And, therefore, all 'Utopias' which reject the absolute destruction of their foes are unreachable, for the act of reaching will compromise that utopian dream.
- Location
- Singapore
- Pronouns
- Singular They
Okay. What is your idea of a utopia? If you already posted it then I'll look through the thread ha ha.
Logistics.
A democracy is a method of deciding what to do on a large scale (I leave aside the question of whether it's the best way of deciding), but it doesn't really help with deciding how to do it. The details get bogged down, problems crop up, little issues snowball into bigger ones, and the whole thing ends up as an exercise to try to be just competent enough to try to accomplish the stated goals without failing horribly, day after day after day.
A utopia should be able to eliminate that. I can't see any way around it other than some magical (or science-fictional enough to be magical, in a Clarke kind of way) process.
As for democracy, there's always the usual question: what if you disagree with what the majority votes for?
Like I disagree a lot with the way the USA is run. Doesn't mean I get to have my way all the time. Sometimes the majority wins and the minority doesn't. Sometimes the minority shall get rightfully angry at this and campaign to change it. Being in a utopia to me doesn't necessarily eliminate all problems with human nature. It just makes a more "perfect and tolerable" world imo.
- Location
- Colorado
- Pronouns
- She/They
Please reread my statement. Societal issues suck, but they're not the only or greatest problems afflicticting individuals. I even said that without them, people still suffer. My premise was that suffering can't be filly eliminated z because a large chunk, not including bigotry, inequity, and other societal issues, are inherent in life, experienced universally across race, class, gender, and species.
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Vyslanté
The self is a prison
- Location
- European Union
I know. I was disagreeing on the part where they're not the greatest problems.
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I'll just leave this here:And after you are done watching think about how many different arguments for shitty things in society are and have been made in practically the same form for a long long time. Because for me the problem with the concept of Utopia is that no one ever goes for thinking trough how to remove the delusions that maintain most of the pain in the world. At the end of the day the most amount of pain in the world of today and of yesterday stems from people in power unwilling to create value and instead seeking to extract value.
You want to see one of those eternal arguments for the shittyness of the world in action and how to shut one down see here:
Did you know the US First Amendment is evil? - Discussion | Page 5
Utopia originally means no-place and is a word invented by Sir Thomas Moore to describe a place that embodies an Ideal. Utopia is a neutral term. Dystopia is a Bad Utopia. Eutopia is a Good Utopia. So to answer the OPs question the Villain's Utopian Ideal is bad because it will cause a Dystopia in it's execution upon the world. The Utopia itself isn't the problem in and of itself as it is the means used for the end goal of creating an Utopia that make a Villain.
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I disagree that peoples in power are responsible for all of life's ills. That seems like diffusing some level of responsibility from yourself to find your own happiness. I do agree that peoples in power often take take take though. And no one here has discussed forcing a eutopia on anyone have they? So what 'shitty things' are we arguing for exactly?
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Ah but people have discussed forcing a Utopia on other people through some form of Instrumentality in this thread. Most people when talking about Instrumentality fail to note that in Evangelion it is considered a form of Dystopian enforcement of the Utopian Ideal of Universal Empathy (and it's also a criticism of the Utopian Ideal for Universal Empathy from Space Runaway Ideon). No one has discussed forcing a Eutopia. In fact most Science Fiction literature would argue that any Utopia that is forced upon the populace is a Dystopia.
And as far as I am aware you personally have been arguing for a Utopia where the Ideal is No Suffering. In your case you have already said how you would remove and minimize all negative stressors, but you haven't actually said how to maximize and add to the positive stressors. I'm curious: How do you think such a thing should be accomplished?
The positive things would ideally be taught in schools, by counselors and parents. Positive media may help as well. Then you can have positivity in church, positivity where you work... it all hinges on if you wanna be happy though. If you don't kinda like me then it'll never work. And if you have a severe mental illness that causes you suffering I would promote meds to alleviate and help you be able to feel positivity. Laws could be created to end discrimination like I've said, which would make certain minority populations happier.
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
The positive things would ideally be taught in schools, by counselors and parents. Positive media may help as well. Then you can have positivity in church, positivity where you work... it all hinges on if you wanna be happy though. If you don't kinda like me then it'll never work. And if you have a severe mental illness that causes you suffering I would promote meds to alleviate and help you be able to feel positivity. Laws could be created to end discrimination like I've said, which would make certain minority populations happier.
Those are all actions for the removal and reduction of negative stress. Um do you even know what positive stress is?
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Negative stress is stuff that causes anxiety, agitation and/or depression. Anything that makes a person feel devalued or damaged.
Positive stress is stuff that causes excitement, motivation and/or haleness. Anything that makes a person feel agency or inspiration.