The Avatar shared universe will be thing.

[dragonx99]

IMO Korra had higher highs than ATLA, but lower lows - the production issues also did not help (S1 was going to be all there was originally IIRC).

As for this, there's a lot of potential! But I think focusing on side-characters and/or smaller stories is the way to go - there's no need to try to up the stakes from "saving the world" or even do it again.

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Apparently each season was supposed to be the last one as far as the writers knew, they just kept then getting told 'hmmm ok one more, but that's it!' until the finished season 4 at which point nick decided they actually were ending it this time.

 

[AKuz]

This sounds interesting.

Please elaborate.

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Oh, basically they have like no ability to understand or write ideologies that aren't Liberalism so we get straw Communists, and Straw Anarchists with "yet you live in a society, curious" tier understandings and critiques.

Then fascism be like "well, they mean well but go to far, man"

Oh also randian objectivism getting a tonguebath too.

(Nevermind it being a show painfully of its era where structural inequality is solved forever by electing non-Bending Obama)

I'm at work and lazy so will link to videos on this:




Edit: Actually I'm now considering that wow, Toph fucked up as a mother so much she raised an Arch-Cop and Lady-Galt.

 

[Ant221]

Apparently each season was supposed to be the last one as far as the writers knew, they just kept then getting told 'hmmm ok one more, but that's it!' until the finished season 4 at which point nick decided they actually were ending it this time.

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After season 1, the show was renewed for a second season after that season was over, the show was renewed for both seasons 3 and 4.

I hope this announcement of Avatar Studios gives us a season 5 of LoK. With Ruins of the Empire made non canon, no one wanted Kuvira to get a redemption arc.

 

[tankdrop24]

I'm at work and lazy so will link to videos on this:



Edit: Actually I'm now considering that wow, Toph fucked up as a mother so much she raised an Arch-Cop and Lady-Galt.

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Wow, did not remember how much of a prick Varrick actually was until I watched the second video in that series. Fuck that guy.

 

[BossFight]

Oh, basically they have like no ability to understand or write ideologies that aren't Liberalism so we get straw Communists, and Straw Anarchists with "yet you live in a society, curious" tier understandings and critiques.

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Honestly, their big sin for all these conflicts is that they consistently fail to ground them in the characters, something the original series (with Aaron Eihaz writing) excelled at.

Like, I've written this before, but lets look at the equalist/bending conflict. We are told repeatedly that non-benders are some sort of oppressed underclass, forced into poverty by a system of structural inequality and privilege.

Except, we aren't shown that.

Mako and Bolin, our two viewpoint characters into the struggles of the underclass, are benders. Like, these are who we interact with and empathize with. They are our viewpoint into what it is like to be a bender in republic city. And their life fucking sucks. We are introduced to them as struggling amateur MMA fighters who just won a big game, and won a fat stack of cash.

And then their landlord, a rich man who as far as we can tell is not a bender, comes and takes all their money leaving them with barely enough to eat.

So Mako goes and works his second job while Bolin, I think he started busking on the street?

And then it gets worse? Because we learn the two are orphans who had to turn to a life of crime to survive, and have just recently gotten on the straight and narrow? And they have chosen to suffer and starve rather than take the easy route of a life of crime?

Like, this is not the story of two characters having to grapple with their privilege. This is an almost Dicksian story of two members of the oppressed working class.

And then we have Asami. Our viewpoint into what its like to be a nonbender in republic city. Except she is the daughter of the richest man in the world (the second richest is also a nonbender by the by), a genius industrialist in the same vein as Henry Ford (racism not included) who invented the automobile, planes, motorcycles and who knows what else. Who owns a mansion with an indoor pool. She is rich and beautiful and clearly has never wanted for anything.

And we are supposed to see these three characters and think that nonbenders are oppressed? I'm sorry but I ain't buying that.

 

[Enmascarado]

Honestly, their big sin for all these conflicts is that they consistently fail to ground them in the characters, something the original series (with Aaron Eihaz writing) excelled at.

Like, I've written this before, but lets look at the equalist/bending conflict. We are told repeatedly that non-benders are some sort of oppressed underclass, forced into poverty by a system of structural inequality and privilege.

Except, we aren't shown that.

Mako and Bolin, our two viewpoint characters into the struggles of the underclass, are benders. Like, these are who we interact with and empathize with. They are our viewpoint into what it is like to be a bender in republic city. And their life fucking sucks. We are introduced to them as struggling amateur MMA fighters who just won a big game, and won a fat stack of cash.

And then their landlord, a rich man who as far as we can tell is not a bender, comes and takes all their money leaving them with barely enough to eat.

So Mako goes and works his second job while Bolin, I think he started busking on the street?

And then it gets worse? Because we learn the two are orphans who had to turn to a life of crime to survive, and have just recently gotten on the straight and narrow? And they have chosen to suffer and starve rather than take the easy route of a life of crime?

Like, this is not the story of two characters having to grapple with their privilege. This is an almost Dicksian story of two members of the oppressed working class.

And then we have Asami. Our viewpoint into what its like to be a nonbender in republic city. Except she is the daughter of the richest man in the world (the second richest is also a nonbender by the by), a genius industrialist in the same vein as Henry Ford (racism not included) who invented the automobile, planes, motorcycles and who knows what else. Who owns a mansion with an indoor pool. She is rich and beautiful and clearly has never wanted for anything.

And we are supposed to see these three characters and think that nonbenders are oppressed? I'm sorry but I ain't buying that.

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I think that they were introduced like that to show that the Equalist's views weren't completely true, that being a bender or nonbender will not affect if you have success in the city or not. Other factors are more important.

Of course the main problem here is that the circle was never completed.

Benders living a harsh live? Mako and Bolin.

Nonbender living a nice live? Asami.

Bender living a nice live? Avatar's duties aside, I would say: Korra.

Nonbender living a harsh live? ...There's no one.

Sure there are some small details, like how the biggest sport in the city can't be played by nonbenders, the political power being on the benders favor(if I recall correctly) or how nonbenders merchants feel that they're at the mercy of the gangs as they can't do anything but wait for the metal police to arrive. But in general the focus do stays with Korra and the others, so this creates this weird dissonance that you mention.

 

[Ant221]

Wow, did not remember how much of a prick Varrick actually was until I watched the second video in that series. Fuck that guy.

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I already knew Varrick was a prick look at his crimes in Book 2, bombing a building which could've harmed people, stealing Asami's shipments and stealing her company, framing Mako for crimes Varrick's hired thugs committed, getting him locked up in jail and attempted kidnap of President Raiko, though Raiko was a scumbag as well. I never understood why the fanbase seems to like that guy, he isn't funny and was very annoying. He never really properly answered for his crimes.

The show should've had him remain a villain, be the Lex Luthor like character to Asami's Bruce Wayne with Asami taking him down.

 

[firefossil]

Season Premiere: Here's a complicated social problem Korra can't punch her way out of.
Season Finale: 'Korra punches her way out of the problem because Avatar Stronk and Spirit Stronk' (this is also how S1 and S3 of AtlA ended too)

Which is a pity because each season raised interesting questions regarding the avatar's role in society.

Season 1: The avatar mediates between the various benders, but doesn't that leave out non-benders? What if they become as strong as benders?
Season 2: The avatar is the bridge to the spirit world, but why are they separate? Is segregation really mediation? Do they even need spirits anymore?
Season 3: The avatar is supposed to prevent tyrants from breaking the balance of the status quo, but with if the status quo is tyranny?
Season 4: Given the rise of technology, merger with the spirit world, and no meaningful status quo, does the avatar have any purpose at all?

Even if we accept the unfortunate tendency for the Avatar State to function as Deus Ex Machina, that still moves the question from "can Korra defeat faction X?" to "should Korra defeat faction X?". It wouldn't be hard to draw comparisons with the USA's status as superpower which it ostensibly uses to smack down "dictators" and "terrorists" but generally is more concerned with some questionable conception of hegemony than the public good. Or the broader issue you have with superheroes that often function as little more than supercops enforcing the status quo, with the profusion of supercriminals conveniently justifying their existence but not addressing the issue that the average American president probably has more atrocities to his name than most supervillains do.

 

[BossFight]

Sure there are some small details, like how the biggest sport in the city can't be played by nonbenders, the political power being on the benders favor(if I recall correctly) or how nonbenders merchants feel that they're at the mercy of the gangs as they can't do anything but wait for the metal police to arrive. But in general the focus do stays with Korra and the others, so this creates this weird

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Weird dissonance is honestly understating it, they completely refuse to engage with the idea that the nonbenders have any sort of legitmate grievances.

 

[king208]

Weird dissonance is honestly understating it, they completely refuse to engage with the idea that the nonbenders have any sort of legitmate grievances.

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By all accounts they were completely excluded from city politics in season 1. Republic city wasn't yet a presidential republic, but a representative one where each of the five nations got one seat on the council (including the nation consisting entirely of one airbending family living off the coast) and from what we saw all the representatives were benders. That's a legitimate grievance if you ask me.

Nonbender living a harsh live? ...There's no one.

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There was arguably the kind hearted homeless guy who showed up a couple of times and hid Korra and the gang when the Equalists took over the city.

 

[BossFight]

By all accounts they were completely excluded from city politics in season 1. Republic city wasn't yet a presidential republic, but a representative one where each of the five nations got one seat on the council (including the nation consisting entirely of one airbending family living off the coast) and from what we saw all the representatives were benders. That's a legitimate grievance if you ask me.

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And it would have been great if the show engaged with this or treated it as wrong but it just like... Didn't. The council was always presented as the good guys fighting against the evil equalists, and even when Tarlock or whatever went bad he was shown aswrely a bad actor and not representative of a broken system.

It's the same problem with the gangs. We see a bending gang targeting a dude, but we don't get any indication that they target exclusively non benders, they don't spout pro bending rhetoric or do anything besides be like, a normal gang.

None of the problems of the nonbenders are shown as systemic, they are either nonexistent (like when they claim Korra in oppressing them in the begining) or the result of bad actors who do not specifically target them

 

[Renewal]

By all accounts they were completely excluded from city politics in season 1. Republic city wasn't yet a presidential republic, but a representative one where each of the five nations got one seat on the council (including the nation consisting entirely of one airbending family living off the coast) and from what we saw all the representatives were benders. That's a legitimate grievance if you ask me.

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To be fair, it doesn't seem like a hard rule that all the representatives must be benders; Sokka was previously on the council, as well as an Air Acolyte who couldn't be an airbender (since Tenzin was a child and Aang recused himself as the Avatar). But yeah, it's another example of unaddressed bender privilege, that benders are more likely to have the power and influence to climb to political office.

 

[Z-Cosmonaut]

I've read someone say that Amon isn't supposed to necessarily representative of Communists, so much as representative of fascists. With Benders being seen as the Jews, in the sense that Jews are seen by majority-group members as being privileged and overrepresented in certain fields, despite being a minority.

 

[Enmascarado]

There was arguably the kind hearted homeless guy who showed up a couple of times and hid Korra and the gang when the Equalists took over the city.

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Oh I know, like I said, there are hints about that problem, but I meant that there's not representative of that inside the Avatar's gang and so the show doesn't focus on that part of the society.

 

[RoboRenee]

I've read someone say that Amon isn't supposed to necessarily representative of Communists, so much as representative of fascists. With Benders being seen as the Jews, in the sense that Jews are seen by majority-group members as being privileged and overrepresented in certain fields, despite being a minority.

Click to shrink...

Given that Amon's a secret Bender who's cruelly manipulating his followers, uh... yikes if true

 

[BossFight]

Given that Amon's a secret Bender who's cruelly manipulating his followers, uh... yikes if true

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Honestly it doesn't work. All the art direction and talking points are very clearly "evil communism". Honestly, it sounds like someone who likes the show trying to come up with a reason that it's good.

But like, if you like the show you don't need a reason. I can talk until I'm blue in the face about how it fails to deliver the story it thinks it does but like...

Someone else just needs to say "yeah but I like it" and that's enough. My criticism doesn't matter if you enjoy the show and you don't need to justify that enjoyment

 

[Sarissa]

I just want more Avatar, in fact just have an entirely different era that was forgotten by the time Avatar's events occur

 

[DracoDracul]

I just want more Avatar, in fact just have an entirely different era that was forgotten by the time Avatar's events occur

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Part of me wants something in the distant past so that would could actually have a series where the first season ends with the avatar failing and the next season starting with a 15 year time skip to the new avatar.

 

[BossFight]

Honestly I'd like a smaller story that only features the Avatar as a distant presence, if at all

 

[a-10warthog]

Any discussion of how poorly the Legend of Korra and how poorly it handled ideology needs to include Season 4 and how Bryke couldn't decide if Kuvira was Hitler, Mussolini, Napoleon, Ataturk, Mao, Thomas Sankara or Fidel Castro, with her "redemption" in the final episode coming off as very strange if she was really meant to be a Fascist. Honestly, the Fascist parts of Kuvira(concentration camps, arresting all benders who were not earthbenders) felt tacked on so that the protagonists had an excuse to fight her.

Of course, the ironic part of this is that the circumstances which lead to Kuvira's rise(massive inequality, traditional institutions being discredited, government being discredited, collapse of state power, fracturing of the state and civil war, colonial exploitation by wealthier countries) often result in strong authoritarian, nationalistic regimes arising, but these regimes are almost always left-wing(Revolutionary Cuba, Soviet Union, People's Republic of China, Tito's Yugoslavia, Communist Vietnam) or centrist(Ataturk's Turkey, the PRI in Mexico, modern Rwanda, arguably the Kuomintang). I can't think of a single Fascist or quasi-Fascist regime which actually came to power in circumstances resembling what happened in the Earth Kingdom, and it would have been more interesting to see Kuvira depicted as a left-wing dictator because it would have raised serious questions about what Korra's appropriate response should be.

I could forgive depicting Kuvira as a fascist if the writers actually dealt with the fact that she seemed to get 95% of her ideology from Suyin or seriously engaged with how consistently fucked up Suyin's actions were, but they didn't.

And, to finish off my comments on the mishandling of Kuvira, what the writers really needed to do was to give her a prominent role in Season 3(as a quasi-member of Team Avatar?) to introduce her and to demonstrate her positive and negative qualities. But the reality of Bryke's handling of her, along with their general handling of ideologies and the huge mess that was Season 2 of LoK does not make me think highly of their ability to deal with complex topics.


Anyways, for those of you expecting Season 4 of A:TLA, I think you'll be disappointed. Avatar ended with many interesting plot threads largely unresolved and unfinished, and there was a lot of room for a season 4 which dealt with issues like Zuko and Azula's relationship, Zuko searching for their mother, Zuko facing the challenge of ending the war, changing the Fire Nation, and reforming a massively imperialist Fire Nation, Mai and Ty Lee(two characters more complex than three quarters of LoK's Team Avatar despite being secondary antagonists) coming to terms with the realities of Fire Nation imperialism, Aang facing the challenge of creating a lasting peace and also facing the question of what his role should be in peacetime, Toph dealing with her issues with her parents, Toph getting her life-changing field-trip, Suki getting an actual character arc, Sokka and Katara finding their post-war roles, etc. There is easily enough material here for two or more seasons, yet Bryke didn't make a Season 4 when they could have, and it would be odd to do a show focused on the later lives of Team Avatar which ignored all of the issues I just brought up.

 

[Enmascarado]

I doubt we will get a season 4 of the original, but I do think there's a big chance that we will get some mini-series based on the comics, and Zuko's mom's story is explained in those.

 

[Badwolfwho]

Admittedly I haven't read the post Legend of Aang comics but everything I've heard about them sounds pretty bad so I hope they stay in the easy to ignore part of canon

 

[Mechasaurian]

I watched all of A: TLA and S1 of Korra.

Last Airbender was undeniably more coherent about what it wanted to be and had a better main conflict, but I liked Korra as a character significantly more than Aang.

 

[Ant221]

Any discussion of how poorly the Legend of Korra and how poorly it handled ideology needs to include Season 4 and how Bryke couldn't decide if Kuvira was Hitler, Mussolini, Napoleon, Ataturk, Mao, Thomas Sankara or Fidel Castro, with her "redemption" in the final episode coming off as very strange if she was really meant to be a Fascist. Honestly, the Fascist parts of Kuvira(concentration camps, arresting all benders who were not earthbenders) felt tacked on so that the protagonists had an excuse to fight her.

Of course, the ironic part of this is that the circumstances which lead to Kuvira's rise(massive inequality, traditional institutions being discredited, government being discredited, collapse of state power, fracturing of the state and civil war, colonial exploitation by wealthier countries) often result in strong authoritarian, nationalistic regimes arising, but these regimes are almost always left-wing(Revolutionary Cuba, Soviet Union, People's Republic of China, Tito's Yugoslavia, Communist Vietnam) or centrist(Ataturk's Turkey, the PRI in Mexico, modern Rwanda, arguably the Kuomintang). I can't think of a single Fascist or quasi-Fascist regime which actually came to power in circumstances resembling what happened in the Earth Kingdom, and it would have been more interesting to see Kuvira depicted as a left-wing dictator because it would have raised serious questions about what Korra's appropriate response should be.

I could forgive depicting Kuvira as a fascist if the writers actually dealt with the fact that she seemed to get 95% of her ideology from Suyin or seriously engaged with how consistently fucked up Suyin's actions were, but they didn't.

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I personally saw Kuvira as a fascist like Hitler, her locking up undesirables, ie non Earth Empire citizens along with dissidents in prison camps and invading a sovereign country proved that. What really bothered me is after all that happened in Book 4, Kuvira get's a redemption arc in Ruins of The Empire.

Like a commenter on Reddit about that said "Kuvira is easily the most psychotic, blood thirsty and murderous antagonist in the show. She routinely threatens peoples lives to get what she wants it's basically second nature to her. The number of people she tried to murder are off the charts and most of them are innocents. She literally attacks and tries to kill children. She is an unapologetic murderer. She has enough war crimes for a hundred life sentences. This character has literally zero redeemable qualities. None of this is even including all the other crap she has done like the reeducation camps, fascist policies, attacking neutral states, building a giant weapon of mass destruction and firing it on innocents etc. I am honestly just baffled that this character gets to have a redemption arc, she is the character least deserving of such a treatment.'

I personally have to agree with that commentator. Heck you even learn in ROTE Kuvira nearly killed her own mother, which is why she was sent to live with Su and be trained by her.

If any any LoK villain deserved a chance at redemption it should've been Zaheer.

 

[a-10warthog]

I personally saw Kuvira as a fascist like Hitler, her locking up undesirables, ie non Earth Empire citizens along with dissidents in prison camps and invading a sovereign country proved that. What really bothered me is after all that happened in Book 4, Kuvira get's a redemption arc in Ruins of The Empire.

Like a commenter on Reddit about that said "Kuvira is easily the most psychotic, blood thirsty and murderous antagonist in the show. She routinely threatens peoples lives to get what she wants it's basically second nature to her. The number of people she tried to murder are off the charts and most of them are innocents. She literally attacks and tries to kill children. She is an unapologetic murderer. She has enough war crimes for a hundred life sentences. This character has literally zero redeemable qualities. None of this is even including all the other crap she has done like the reeducation camps, fascist policies, attacking neutral states, building a giant weapon of mass destruction and firing it on innocents etc. I am honestly just baffled that this character gets to have a redemption arc, she is the character least deserving of such a treatment.'

I personally have to agree with that commentator. Heck you even learn in ROTE Kuvira nearly killed her own mother, which is why she was sent to live with Su and be trained by her.

If any any LoK villain deserved a chance at redemption it should've been Zaheer.

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I'm absolutely fine with Kuvira being read as a Fascist, and certainly a lot of her depiction in Season 4 aligns with that(although it's mostly stuff that was oddly revealed relatively late in Season 4, to make sure that the audience sided with Korra and to make sure that Bolin would switch sides). What I'm not fine with is her being inconsistently depicted in this manner. Fascist Kuvira is entirely incompatible with her giving up after talking for two minutes with Korra(the quasi-redemption arc I mentioned). As you noted, it's entirely incompatible with her instantly getting a redemption arc in the comics. And it's entirely incompatible with the effort that Bryke went through to present her as sympathetic.

Of course, like I said before, treating Kuvira as a Fascist would ideally also entail dealing with the fact that she seemed to get 90% of her ideology from Suyin and basically seems to have been applying what Suyin did in Zaofu on much larger scale.

Also, I'm generally not OK with LoK's use of childhood trauma(Amon's abuse by his father, and especially Kuvira being abandoned by her parents) as an excuse for villains to believe in awful ideologies. It's a complete contrast with ATLA, where Zuko and Azula had awful, abusive childhoods which screwed them up badly, but their childhood trauma, definitely in the case of Zuko and arguably in the case of Azula, made them more instead of less likely to doubt Fire Nation ideology(Azula's belief that she's an awful person--"a monster"-- is very interesting considering how perfectly she exemplifies many of the ideals of the Fire Nation).

I do have to say that I disagree with the idea that Zaheer particularly deserves redemption. He believes in the awful, nonsensical ideology which is LoK's insulting caricature of anarchism, and he is consistently depicted as being willing to do absolutely horrible things to further it. He tried to kidnap baby Korra to use her as a weapon, he targeted world leaders for assassination, he threw Ba Sing Se into chaos causing God knows how many deaths, he tried to kill adult Korra just because she was the Avatar, he took the Air Nomads as hostages and didn't care if they got killed, he had the Northern Air Temple destroyed. I don't think we should give him a pass because he legitimately believed in his ideology. So did Kuvira and (probably) Amon.

Of course, if we take the A:TLA line, anyone is capable of redemption, and that included Iroh, who spent decades as the crown prince and top general of an awful, imperialist, genocidal regime. In fact, in terms of involvement in awful things he's probably behind only Sozin and Azulon, yet Avatar says he finds redemption.