.....I really need brain bleach. I just got an image of Saurial in a senifuku Sailor Moon style. And it is getting hard not to try to picture any of Taylor's other forms in one.

Well, if they pull that one, I vote for Cloak to show up, go into the same sort of transformation poses, and after the light-flash, have a fuku-pattern print displaying on the outer surface of her "fabric", with a smiley face emoji showing under the hood. "What? Saurial said that a smiling face was an important point for this costume."

On the other hand I can see her getting somehow captured in her shadow state and contained inside a EDM tupperware that can contain her shadow-state substance but is otherwise too small to hold her if she tries to leave it.

If they are going for maximum irony, Stalker is returned to the PRT inside a 25mm scale replica of a Winslow locker with enough dimensionally folded space inside to equal a standard prison cell, and an access port that is standard human size only when the locker door is opened with the correct combination.
 
Too bad Endbringer fights are extremely crowded affairs, the Fusion Torch sounds like something even they would feel -if you could get them to come anywhere near Family members, that is.

Pretty much anything would notice a fusion flame to the face. And if fusing hydrogen didn't do the job, push it further up the periodic table! By the time you're fusing cobalt nuclei...

Well, you'd see the light from Alpha Centauri, for a start :)
 
Too bad Endbringer fights are extremely crowded affairs, the Fusion Torch sounds like something even they would feel -if you could get them to come anywhere near Family members, that is.

Employing meta-knowledge, I would be very hesitant to employ a fusion torch against the endbringers, not that in-universe knowledge yet knows why that is a bad idea. You would need to scale the amount of fusion material to the amount of material you wished to effect, and the endbringers are significantly more massive than anyone presently realizes, and employing enough material to adequately affect that amount of matter in whatever endbringer would have a proportional knock-on effect far greater than the space the endbringer takes up would indicate. I can pretty much guarantee no one is going to be happy if you kill an endbringer but end up making a patch of land the size of a small country uninhabitable for thousands of years or more.
 
Oh, she has many, many possibilities for something as simple as breathing fire...
  • Magnesium nanoparticles/LOX/Fluorine, as in the story
  • Straight LH/LOX as per a rocket engine
  • LH/LF for a really nasty one
  • ClF3​/damn near anything
  • Fuming HNO3​/Alcohol
  • Dinitrogen Tetroxide/Hydrazine
And many more. Those are just simple chemistry. If you wanted to push the envelope, considering that there's no particular limit to the pressure under which she can form matter, take a lot of deuterium, squeeze it, and...

The Fusion Torch Dragon of Death!

Not only does everything in range simply evaporate instantly, everything else gets irradiated with neutrons! Much more bang for your buck! Ask for it by name!

:D

If she doesn't want the neutrons I seem to recall there is a fusion reaction based on He3 that is a lot cleaner. Also, I don't see why she can't breathe out a mixture of hydrogen and anti-hydrogen, for that nice gamma-y flux feeling... Call it:

DRACONIC ANNIHILATION!

:)

Edit:
Then, there is the version with the dimensional folding, so it works better against Endbringers, incorporating the anti-collateral damage dimensional heat dispersal scheme that blue-shifts all the waste energy into a nice gamma burst straight up...
 
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I8. Endbringer mass and the problems thereof
Employing meta-knowledge, I would be very hesitant to employ a fusion torch against the endbringers, not that in-universe knowledge yet knows why that is a bad idea. You would need to scale the amount of fusion material to the amount of material you wished to effect, and the endbringers are significantly more massive than anyone presently realizes, and employing enough material to adequately affect that amount of matter in whatever endbringer would have a proportional knock-on effect far greater than the space the endbringer takes up would indicate. I can pretty much guarantee no one is going to be happy if you kill an endbringer but end up making a patch of land the size of a small country uninhabitable for thousands of years or more.

The issue of Endbringer true mass is something that's bothered me for a long time. I believe I'm right in saying that in canon their 'toughness' goes up exponentially as you get closer to the middle, but I also believe that fans equate this with exponential 'density', which if you run the numbers very quickly gives results that are totally preposterous even in Worm terms.

I posted the below rant on SB last year, but I'll repeat it here for you:

Endbringers. Yes.

I have a number of problems with them, actually. The numbers waved around are simply insane, even in the context of the story. I have a strong suspicion they were pulled out of somewhere rather random because they sounded nice...

If we go from the article on the wiki, an Endbringer's torso consists of a layered material of approximately 200 layers in total, each one doubling the hardness, or toughness, or strength (which are all different) of the one before. This means the core is 2^200, or 1.61e60 times any or all of these than the outer skin. This is a VERY big number.

Now, the problem is compounded by the common description of them stating that the density goes up by the same factor.

I find this hard to believe.

As an example, let's model the Endbringer as a bar with a cross-sectional area of 1cm square and a length of 2 meters. We have two hundred layers, each one twice as dense/hard/tough/strong as the previous one. Each layer is therefore 1 cubic centimetre, making it easy to calculate. Note that this is a tiny fraction of the actual Endbringer. The outer layer is stated to be roughly equivalent in properties to aluminum alloy. Let's say it's a really good aerospace one, such as 7075-T651. This has a density of 2.81 g/cc.

Thus, the first layer (1cm cube) has a mass of 2.81g. The next one is double that, giving 5.62g. And so on.

What does the final 1 cubic centimeter mass?

2.81*1.61e60 grams, or 4.515e57 kilograms.

This is rather a lot.

To put it into perspective, a standard solar mass, the figure you use to work out how big galaxies are, among other very big things, is 1.98855e30 kilograms. The Andromeda galaxy, which is our nearest large extragalactic neighbour, has an estimated mass of 1.5e12 solar masses. This gives it a mass of 2.98e42 kilograms, give or take.

4.515e57/2.98e42 is 1.515e15. So that one cubic centimeter of Endbringer core would have a mass equaling that of one and a half quadrillion galaxies the size of Andromeda. The most recent estimate of the total number of galaxies in the universe is two trillion...

So one cc of Endbringer core has the mass of 757.5 universes. Neglecting all the other layers, which are still stupidly massive until you get pretty close to the outside. I can't be bothered to calculate it to any greater level than that, but the point is that an Endbringer doesn't, based on the common theory, mass as much as a neutron star, or even a galaxy as I've seen in some places. It would mass as much as thousands of entire universes!

Feel free to check my calculations, it's quite possible I've made a mistake, but even if I was many orders of magnitude out, it would still be completely preposterous.

Even if we ignore the density issue and simply take the wiki entry as correct, saying that the physical properties of the Endbringer layers other than density increase at that rate, it's still ridiculous. Less so, but close enough to magic as makes no difference.

If the mass thing is real, the Endbringers are unbeatable, by any normal meaning of the word. You could never remove enough mass from them for them to even notice. What happens to the mass you do manage to remove? Does it revert to normal density, or more normal densities? If so your planet, or solar system, goes away.

If the theory that they store most of their mass in other dimensions and bring it back to fill in any damage, as Scion is supposed to do, is correct they're still unbeatable. They have thousands of universes worth of mass to use, Earth Bet only has one to fill with bits of Endbringer. They'll run out of places to put the fragments long before the Endbringer runs out of fragments :)

Sure, they're not working to their full potential, we know that, but considering them something that could be damaged at all bearing in mind the above would require them to be underutilizing their abilities so much it's just down at the noise floor. If Eidolon was able, at his peak and in theory, to solo an Endbringer, that means he was able to wipe out a universe or more. If the Entities can give away powers that overwhelming, they're more than capable of staving off entropy and the entire thing is a waste of time.

The numbers don't make sense if you take that explanation of the things. I would suggest that the binding force between their atoms goes up steadily, rather than the density of the matter comprising them. It would achieve the same apparent result without requiring entire universes worth of energy to do it.
 
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"MAGICAL LIZARD GIRL KAJIU, ILLUMINATE"

Yep, inevitable.

And so it was that the reptile queen of trolling met the white devil and the Death-star in a mini-skirt - and across the multiverse could be heard the sounds of millions of voice crying out in terror - and then being silenced (or befriended.)


They use the same phlebotinum skin-cream as people on Remnant, I imagine.

Would Saurial Count as a Semblance, or should she be considered a Faunas - then again, they DO have Dragon-grimm - and now i'm imagining a meting between Sammy and Ziz the grimm


Oh, it's not just Pokemon that annoys me.

Dora the Explorer again has a young girl sent out into the wilderness regularly with no parental supervision.

I once read a 'hilarious' Dora ficca where it turned out the whole thing was the result of her getting exposed to some rather squerly chemicals and hallucinating as a result...
 
Another wrinkle for the idea of an endbringer's density going up the deeper in you go... Wouldn't all that mass make an endbringer so heavy it would literally form a black hole simply by existing? I mean, seriously? You take the mass of multiple universes and shove it all into a 30 foot tall being located entirely in one universe. Uhm, great. Black hole are formed by objects with far less mass and density that are crushed by their own gravity into a singularity. So why aren't the endbringers forming black holes?
 
The issue of Endbringer true mass is something that's bothered me for a long time. I believe I'm right in saying that in canon their 'toughness' goes up exponentially as you get closer to the middle, but I also believe that fans equate this with exponential 'density', which if you run the numbers very quickly gives results that are totally preposterous even in Worm terms.

I posted the below rant on SB last year, but I'll repeat it here for you:



The numbers don't make sense if you take that explanation of the things. I would suggest that the binding force between their atoms goes up steadily, rather than the density of the matter comprising them. It would achieve the same apparent result without requiring entire universes worth of energy to do it.

OK, don't know if it of any use, but my cut on the Endbringers toughness is that they are using dimensional trickery and dispersing the incoming force/energy into one or more other dimensions - this would fit the logic of a lot of powers which allegedly use this sort of trick. So, the factoring up on the layering is about increased efficiency in the dispersal process, which also explains Flechette's effectiveness against them. When in doubt tell yourself KISS - Keep It Simple...

(Warning: You only get to apply the KISS principle to things YOU think, not things other people are on about. :) )

---

Am I the only one who can see Saurial standing next to a large vehicle covered in dust sheets, patting it and saying, "So, anyone object to me cos-playing as Flash Gordon and riding War Rocket Ajax here in against the enemy citadel?". :)

Attack run:
 
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Magnesium nanoparticles/LOX/Fluorine, as in the story
That's what it was, didn't completely recall it.
LH/LF for a really nasty one
Eh, if you want the flame plume to have some mass to it, you'd probably be better off going for something like CH4/LF/LOX, or Methane/FLOX, as it's known on Atomic Rockets. It was considered by North American Rockwell as the propellant/oxidizer mix for their Mars lander proposal.
 
The issue of Endbringer true mass is something that's bothered me for a long time. I believe I'm right in saying that in canon their 'toughness' goes up exponentially as you get closer to the middle, but I also believe that fans equate this with exponential 'density', which if you run the numbers very quickly gives results that are totally preposterous even in Worm terms.

I posted the below rant on SB last year, but I'll repeat it here for you:



The numbers don't make sense if you take that explanation of the things. I would suggest that the binding force between their atoms goes up steadily, rather than the density of the matter comprising them. It would achieve the same apparent result without requiring entire universes worth of energy to do it.

I fully appreciate the idea of the endbringers not being at preposterous amounts of mass, but having an increased amount of energy in a binding (as would make the atoms that much harder to be separated) would be hazardous in a similar vein if one was to go around shattering a significant amount of them to cause appreciable damage. A great deal of the larger explosions man can make come from freeing just the energy used to bind atoms together.

Upon reflection, Taylor has significantly better alternatives to dealing with the endbringers without resorting to czar bomba levels of explosions. Hell, even the nuclear shotgun is almost certainly far more destructive than she needs to be. Depending on how willing she is to reveal secrets, one of her more simplistic methods of dealing with them is to shift into a large enough form to simply grapple and hold an endbringer still, then plasma torch cut it into small enough pieces until it stops moving. Short of simply deleting the spot of space it's occupying from existence, I can't imagine there is a less destructive physical means towards ending an endbringers existence.

Something I am absolutely certain of, however, after reading 1.4 million words of this story is, if and when we reach an endbringer fight, the conclusion will be satisfactory and almost certainly not grim-dark. Sorry for the tangent, your work is incredibly satisfying to read (I very frequently stop whatever I'm doing when I get emailed that you have posted a new message), and I hope to continue to enjoy it for some time yet.
 
The issue of Endbringer true mass is something that's bothered me for a long time. I believe I'm right in saying that in canon their 'toughness' goes up exponentially as you get closer to the middle, but I also believe that fans equate this with exponential 'density', which if you run the numbers very quickly gives results that are totally preposterous even in Worm terms.

I posted the below rant on SB last year, but I'll repeat it here for you:



The numbers don't make sense if you take that explanation of the things. I would suggest that the binding force between their atoms goes up steadily, rather than the density of the matter comprising them. It would achieve the same apparent result without requiring entire universes worth of energy to do it.
It's easier and makes for a better story if you don't give out more info on them than "insanely durable, skin similar in properties to aluminium alloy, gets more durable the closer to the core you get. Unless you wish to use Planet Crackers against them to break the Core, thus fucking up everything around it, use Dimensional Hax to bypass durabilty for a kill."

There. A description of their durability that allows you to write a story with them as the nigh-unbeatable monsters without running into plotholes such as "the mass off 750+ universes in one 30 feet high sea monster"

Why did Wildbow have to give out numbers on them...
 
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That's what it was, didn't completely recall it.

Eh, if you want the flame plume to have some mass to it, you'd probably be better off going for something like CH4/LF/LOX, or Methane/FLOX, as it's known on Atomic Rockets. It was considered by North American Rockwell as the propellant/oxidizer mix for their Mars lander proposal.

There are dozens of combinations of oxidizers and fuel which an enterprising part-time dragon who managed to lay hands on the right literature could experiment with... :)
 
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5$ says Sophia lasts less than Coil if she tries to mess with V!Taylor. Any takers?

Also, @mp3.1415player a writing challenge for thee!
*No use of word "pleased" in the next chapter. Synonyms are allowed.
*No extra deliberation time, so... That's what, a month maximum for a chapter, excepting natural disasters, overly large workload and Eldritch Monstrosities claiming copyright
*No gore in this thread (there are rules, bit then there is Sophia)

How about it? :p

Also, thanks for this chapter. It was delicious, even without Tabasco sauce. :D
 
My headcanon is that the interior of the Endbringers is just neutronium with some pressure stabilization and mass cancellation shenanigans going on. A back of the envelope calculation suggests that if neutronium were stable, its tensile strength would be on the order of 10^34 Pa (10^4 N/n * 10^30 n/m^2), which is something like 2^83 times as strong as steel compared with 2^55 times the density, so you're right that strength and density don't have to scale. Still, I don't see any way to get to 2^200 with physics as we know it.
 
Oh Sofia is cruel and quite vicious,
and her intentions are clearly malicious.
But she should tremble in fear,
while the family's near;
For with tabasco she will be delicious.


bad I know, but I had some problems with the couplets...
 
My headcanon is that the interior of the Endbringers is just neutronium with some pressure stabilization and mass cancellation shenanigans going on. A back of the envelope calculation suggests that if neutronium were stable, its tensile strength would be on the order of 10^34 Pa (10^4 N/n * 10^30 n/m^2), which is something like 2^83 times as strong as steel compared with 2^55 times the density, so you're right that strength and density don't have to scale. Still, I don't see any way to get to 2^200 with physics as we know it.

I really think you have to just ignore the numbers when they end up like that. Saying an Endbringer is either spread across thousands to millions of universes in their entirety, or has the mass of them, instantly renders a large part of the story totally redundant, as they simply can't be beaten.

Even if you assume it's massively enhanced atomic binding energy, there's still a vast amount that would be liberated if the thing was cut up, assuming it was possible. More than enough to make the result a pyrrhic victory.

However...

As far as I remember, parts of Leviathan were cut off in canon, without too much of a problem as far as the surroundings went, which presumably means that whatever the mechanism involved, it doesn't release huge amounts of energy or matter when or if the Endbringer is damaged. So we can assume, in fact, that they can be destroyed without too much risk of the entire solar system going away very suddenly, or possibly the universe itself. Provided you can either apply enough force, or the right sort of force, or simply hit the 'off' switch.

Which would definitely be the funniest way to deal with them.

"Oh, didn't you read your new Conflict Engine™ manual? The shutdown sequence is clearly documented, just reach underneath right here, you see, and press this..."

:D
 
............seriously........... if I remember correctly, Emily got orders from on high to keep Sophia around yeah? So she should just toss her superiors under the bus. especially if she can show that she didn't WANT to keep the crazy bitch. No really, best plan.
 
My headcanon is that the apparent ridiculously scaling density/mass/toughness/whatever of the Endbringers is a deception on their part.... that they're insanely tough inside, yes, but nowhere near as tough, not even as much as everyone in the Wormverse currently believes. Blame it on some form of metaphysical illusion, or maybe even some form of psychic fake-out by the Simurgh that dulls the logical thinking abilitiies of those attacking them.

Why? So that if anyone actually gets close to destroying them, to punching all the way through and cracking their core, they'll give up in despair long beforehand.
 
My headcanon is that the apparent ridiculously scaling density/mass/toughness/whatever of the Endbringers is a deception on their part.... that they're insanely tough inside, yes, but nowhere near as tough, not even as much as everyone in the Wormverse currently believes. Blame it on some form of metaphysical illusion, or maybe even some form of psychic fake-out by the Simurgh that dulls the logical thinking abilitiies of those attacking them.

Why? So that if anyone actually gets close to destroying them, to punching all the way through and cracking their core, they'll give up in despair long beforehand.

It's as plausible as any other explanation, and more so than most. It could also be some sort of forcefield, something that dissipates energy on contact so reduces damage massively, or any number of other ideas.

From memory the only data they had on this density thing was from Tattletale, and she could well have been spoofed, considering where the Endbringers and her powers came from. Not to mention what the mission goal of the Endbringers was in the first place.
 
Wonder how the heros would react to mini-drake Taylor coming to the debriefing.

Edit: Please don't use pokemon refrances. I am still trying to forget all the time wasted in my childhood because of that stupid show. I am just happy that I managed to forget most of the theme song.
I wanna be the very best, like no one ever was. To catch them is the real test, to train them is my cause.
 
Endbringers were just far in the future project of Saurial/Metis/Lanthe/Dragon combined. Made as guardians for DWU with core of EDM, hard physic and magical abilities doubling as para powers. They were picked up by Eden in some other space time, when they were accidentally sucked in Varga Random Space-Time VortexTM​ (adventure like you have never before) and happened before their AI could be programmed with loyalty. It so happens that Eden came to earth bet and they were let loose on after Eden's death. That is why Scion had no master control over them, and they went against him during GM.

And they can be neutralized by imprisoning them in Klein bottles which appear to be colorful sphere size of tennis ball on the outside. They can be released as needed by throwing the ball where required.
 
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I fully appreciate the idea of the endbringers not being at preposterous amounts of mass, but having an increased amount of energy in a binding (as would make the atoms that much harder to be separated) would be hazardous in a similar vein if one was to go around shattering a significant amount of them to cause appreciable damage. A great deal of the larger explosions man can make come from freeing just the energy used to bind atoms together.

Upon reflection, Taylor has significantly better alternatives to dealing with the endbringers without resorting to czar bomba levels of explosions. Hell, even the nuclear shotgun is almost certainly far more destructive than she needs to be. Depending on how willing she is to reveal secrets, one of her more simplistic methods of dealing with them is to shift into a large enough form to simply grapple and hold an endbringer still, then plasma torch cut it into small enough pieces until it stops moving. Short of simply deleting the spot of space it's occupying from existence, I can't imagine there is a less destructive physical means towards ending an endbringers existence.

Something I am absolutely certain of, however, after reading 1.4 million words of this story is, if and when we reach an endbringer fight, the conclusion will be satisfactory and almost certainly not grim-dark. Sorry for the tangent, your work is incredibly satisfying to read (I very frequently stop whatever I'm doing when I get emailed that you have posted a new message), and I hope to continue to enjoy it for some time yet.
Given that it seems to be popular to have Endbringer cores explode upon being broken, I can buy that explanation.
 
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