Remove ads

SV has an Imaginary Number problem

Fivemarks

Fivemarks

Banned Forever
Banned
Suspended
Blah blah blah, I'm not a talkative or wordy person, so here we go.

I think SV's user generated fiction and content has a problem, and that problem is that it's very... Very fucking White and "Ethnic groups the average nerd things are cool". And by that I mean we're basically the surface image of Battletech when it comes to our fiction: We've got a bunch of various flavors of White, Some asians for that mysterious oriental/Cool Anime flavor, and then you throw in a smattering of other minorities for color. and exoticness. You hardly ever see Black or Latino or Pacific Islander protagonists, and when you do they're either just Maui, or are oversexualized all to heck. I know there's good reasons for it and all, but whatever.

It's just a thing that struck me, but I've also basically accepted it. I fucking love giant robots and sci-fi, and I also love fantasy. They're my favorite genres of anything ever, and I've 100% accepted that I aint going to see a black guy in a leading role in any of that- except for Tapp Oceano in Dragonar, and Roy Greenhilt in Order of the Stick.

And sure, I know what the response will be: "Just make your own fiction if you want black men to be in leading roles", "It's not a problem because black people have sports and Crime fiction", and the favorite "Black people just aren't attractive or interesting to write or draw". Oh and I can't forget "I don't want to offend minorities by putting them into a thing and somehow pulling a Tom Kratman writes Athene into his books on them"
 
Last edited:
I'm from Southeast Asia, man. If I ever write fiction on, dunno, Balikpapan, I doubt there'll be black there. I think I only saw like one black man IRL all my life, somewhere in Malang, while I've seen (very) occasional white whenever I settle down for long enough time.

That said, you make a good point. Perhaps it's wise to put the setting on my sorta kinda planned story on SEA, instead of generic not!USA.
 
UrsaTempest said:
I'm from Southeast Asia, man. If I ever write fiction on, dunno, Balikpapan, I doubt there'll be black there. I think I only saw like one black man IRL all my life, somewhere in Malang, while I've seen (very) occasional white whenever I settle down for long enough time.

That said, you make a good point. Perhaps it's wise to put the setting on my sorta kinda planned story on SEA, instead of generic not!USA.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You've got it basically just as bad though. Maybe without the problem of "If you do appear, it'll be as an athlete or criminal or one of three Black Roles that aren't that", but you still have a problem with representation.
 
Fivemarks said:
You've got it basically just as bad though. Maybe without the problem of "If you do appear, it'll be as an athlete or criminal or one of three Black Roles that aren't that", but you still have a problem with representation.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean, anyone from East Asia from Heilongjiang to Nusantara Tenggara tends to get lumped into a general "Asian" representation, and anyone from south to west Asia is in yet another set of representation that mysteriously doesn't enter, as you say:

Fivemarks said:
Some asians for that mysterious oriental/Cool Anime flavor
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

So I don't quite know what you want us to do.
 
Fivemarks said:
Blah blah blah, I'm not a talkative or wordy person, so here we go.

I think SV's user generated fiction and content has a problem, and that problem is that it's very... Very fucking White and "Ethnic groups the average nerd things are cool". And by that I mean we're basically the surface image of Battletech when it comes to our fiction: We've got a bunch of various flavors of White, Some asians for that mysterious oriental/Cool Anime flavor, and then you throw in a smattering of other minorities for color. and exoticness. You hardly ever see Black or Latino or Pacific Islander protagonists, and when you do they're either just Maui, or are oversexualized all to heck. I know there's good reasons for it and all, but whatever.

It's just a thing that struck me, but I've also basically accepted it. I fucking love giant robots and sci-fi, and I also love fantasy. They're my favorite genres of anything ever, and I've 100% accepted that I aint going to see a black guy in a leading role in any of that- except for Tapp Oceano in Dragonar, and Roy Greenhilt in Order of the Stick.

And sure, I know what the response will be: "Just make your own fiction if you want black men to be in leading roles", "It's not a problem because black people have sports and Crime fiction", and the favorite "Black people just aren't attractive or interesting to write or draw". Oh and I can't forget "I don't want to offend minorities by putting them into a thing and somehow pulling a Tom Kratman writes Athene into his books on them"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I dunno if this helps, but I was doing a thing awhile back, designing a rich and powerful Sorceress to be a potential ally or enemy in a game I was running. And as I was doing so, I had a sudden realization.

She, like about 60% of the cast, was white. And the other 40% were largely Asians, as you noticed is a bit of a trend. And I thought to myself, that kinda sucks.

So I went and I dug through a bunch of African myths and folktales until I found names, aesthetics, and powers I like. She ended up being an antagonist, but she was a powerful woman who influenced nations and commanded legions of the living dead. I don't know if that's worth anything to you, but there are people out there, at least one person, thinking along these same lines and going "That sucks."

(She was also neither a criminal nor an athlete, because her body was magically reinforced to preclude the need for plebeian things like 'exercise', and you can't be a criminal if you're the one who defines what the laws are).
 
Last edited:
On the original fiction front I think that things have progressed a little (not enough certainly). For example, with his Rivers of London series, Ben Aaronovitch gave me something I didn't actually believe I would see in the urban fantasy genre : a biracial hero. Even better, one whose heritage mattered in the narrative. The Sorcerer of the Wildeeps, from Kai Ashante, even explore a NotAfrica that is quite interesting, with a m/m romance at the forefront and a black main protagonist. Max Gladstone's first book Three Part Dead has a black woman as heroine.

Still, when Sci-Fi and Fantasy works, anime, and video games are concerned, that is, the fictional works SV is most interested in, it's true there is not much material to work from. Hopefully, with Luke Cage, Black Panther and Black Lighting, things will evolve positively. As it is, it's true that I wouldn't know what story or quest to recommend if someone asked me to point them toward a fic or a quest with a black protagonist on SV.
 
Fivemarks said:
Tom Kratman writes Athene
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Wait, what? I thought he hated Athene. Did he do it as an apology gift? I'd think he would be way too egotistical and spiteful to ever do something nice for her, but maybe I'm wrong. It's not like he'd write her in just to have something bad happen to her, that would be absurd and not at all like the Tom Kratman we know and loathe.
(I really hope people realize I'm joking)

As for user fiction being really white/"non-white ethnic group seen as cool", we could go with the suggestion already made for the other problems and create contests for characters who aren't that. Although the problem would be that it would only solve the "white" part of it. Still a partial solution is better than none.
Or go with the suggestion that's turned into a running joke with these threads and pay @Strypgia or one of the other for-pay authors to write one.

Aloysius said:
Max Gladstone's first book Three Part Dead has a black woman as heroine.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And Full Fathom Five has a trans woman (either black or Asian-equivalent in-universe, I can't tell which one of the women on the cover is Kai and it's been a while since I read it) protagonist. Gladstone has done a good job of having a diverse cast, especially protagonists.
 
Fandom Lord said:
And Full Fathom Five has a trans woman (either black or Asian-equivalent in-universe, I can't tell which one of the women on the cover is Kai and it's been a while since I read it) protagonist. Gladstone has done a good job of having a diverse cast, especially protagonists.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That's nice to know, I had a hard time with his 2nd book because the way its hero (Caleb I think ?) related to another character reminded me too much of the way many YA protagonist obsess over some manic pixie dream girl so I didn't follow the rest of his series but that's a reason for checking out the others books, thanks.
 
Aloysius said:
That's nice to know, I had a hard time with his 2nd book because the way its hero (Caleb I think ?) related to another character reminded me too much of the way many YA protagonist obsess over some manic pixie dream girl so I didn't follow the rest of his series but that's a reason for checking out the others books, thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I won't spoil the plot twist, but Gladstone subverted that trope and showed why it's bad.
 
Fandom Lord said:
As for user fiction being really white/"non-white ethnic group seen as cool", we could go with the suggestion already made for the other problems and create contests for characters who aren't that. Although the problem would be that it would only solve the "white" part of it. Still a partial solution is better than none.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Just artificially boost works with underrepresented character ethnicities/sexualities to the front page, then people will have to write them to get noticed.

Fandom Lord said:
I won't spoil the plot twist, but Gladstone subverted that trope and showed why it's bad.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, I did like that
Teo turned out to be entirely right about Mal. On the other hand, it did bother me a little that Kopil was apparently willing to just let it go that Caleb ended up with a not insignificant share of responsibility for the whole "rampaging lava serpents" incident.

Aloysius said:
That's nice to know, I had a hard time with his 2nd book because the way its hero (Caleb I think ?) related to another character reminded me too much of the way many YA protagonist obsess over some manic pixie dream girl so I didn't follow the rest of his series but that's a reason for checking out the others books, thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If you liked Three Parts Dead, Four Roads Cross is a direct sequel. I don't think you lose anything reading them in chronological rather than publication order (and Full Fathom Five kind spoils the outcome of 4RC).

Also @Fivemarks: when did you realise that titling the thread "SV has an imaginary problem" would entirely defeat the purpose :p?
 
Caconym said:
Just artificially boost works with underrepresented character ethnicities/sexualities to the front page, then people will have to write them to get noticed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'd think a contest would work better since that way we'd be getting the best people can do.
 
My writing process consists almost entirely of stealing stuff from other places in bits and pieces, so you shouldn't expect much from me until fiction becomes full of minorities. I'm aware that probably compounds the problem, but that's tragedy of the commons for you.

Also, I tend to perceive characters like Disney's Aladdin or Aang from Avatar as white until it's pointed out otherwise, which might exacerbate the problem.
 
SeptimusMagisto said:
My writing process consists almost entirely of stealing stuff from other places in bits and pieces, so you shouldn't expect much from me until fiction becomes full of minorities. I'm aware that probably compounds the problem, but that's tragedy of the commons for you.

Also, I tend to perceive characters like Disney's Aladdin or Aang from Avatar as white until it's pointed out otherwise, which might exacerbate the problem.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There's an easy way to fix this. Notice the problem, and then...fix it. It's actually hella easy. I do it all I time. I start making a character. If I default to white, I pause, and ask myself "Wait why does she have to be white?"

Ever since I started doing this, asking myself that question, my stuff has gotten a lot more diverse, and, hey, bonus, I've learned a lot of cool stuff about other cultures because I default to digging through myths and gods for names and fleshing out concepts.
 
Kaiya said:
There's an easy way to fix this. Notice the problem, and then...fix it. It's actually hella easy. I do it all I time. I start making a character. If I default to white, I pause, and ask myself "Wait why does she have to be white?"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I can change their skin color easily enough, but having that affect their characterization would mean a lot of extra work, and I'm pretty lazy.
 
SeptimusMagisto said:
I can change their skin color easily enough, but having that affect their characterization would mean a lot of extra work, and I'm pretty lazy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Skin color is only part of being a different ethnicity. If you have a black character, but he acts like he's just a generic white dude who happens to be black, That is just a *bit* frustrating.
 
Fivemarks said:
Skin color is only part of being a different ethnicity. If you have a black character, but he acts like he's just a generic white dude who happens to be black, That is just a *bit* frustrating.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Which means Rivers of London would be bad because in the first few books I needed to remind me very often that the character is black, and even now I mostly read him like someone from one of the Turkish immigrant families.
 
Fivemarks said:
Skin color is only part of being a different ethnicity. If you have a black character, but he acts like he's just a generic white dude who happens to be black, That is just a *bit* frustrating.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Right. I don't even feel comfortable with assuming I know how being of a certain ethnicity might affect someone in this time. I'm certainly not going to try to figure out what that might look like in a totally different setting. If I'm writing a fantasy, ripping off Moors feels totally nonsenical and stealing from African folklore feels hacky. If I'm writing science fiction, I would hope these things get ironed out by that time frame, not least because I simply don't feel like trying to take on the dynamics of race.

In short, this is hard and so I'm probably just not going to bother.
 
There's definitely a race assumption, unless said otherwise it's usually assumed a character is white if it's in fic where another race would be more likely. It's not hard to mention though.

And then there's the way the same character has had a different race in different iterations. While Hugo Strange is white in the Batman comics, Gotham had him played by the (in my opinion) very talented B.D. Wong. So while a normal Batman fanfic might go on the assumption Strange is white, a Gotham fanfic would usually have the reader assuming he's Asian since that's what he is on the show.

Which made me disappointed by what Star Trek Into Darkness did to Khan. I'd be fine if a fanfic based on the new movie kept him how he was in his original iteration.
 
Fivemarks said:
I fucking love giant robots and sci-fi, and I also love fantasy. They're my favorite genres of anything ever, and I've 100% accepted that I aint going to see a black guy in a leading role in any of that- except for Tapp Oceano in Dragonar, and Roy Greenhilt in Order of the Stick.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Benjamin Sisko from Deep Space Nine too.

Fivemarks said:
Skin color is only part of being a different ethnicity. If you have a black character, but he acts like he's just a generic white dude who happens to be black, That is just a *bit* frustrating.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
A fantasy character typically isn't any real-world ethnicity. And neither "black" nor "white" is actually an ethnicity at all, anyway.

If anything the problem there is the near-obsessive imitation of Tolkien in fantasy.
 
Avernus said:
A fantasy character typically isn't any real-world ethnicity. And neither "black" nor "white" is actually an ethnicity at all, anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Your typical fantasy culture is a thinly-veiled copy-and-paste of a real world one, so I'd say that the typical fantasy character very much does have a real-world ethnicity. In Tolkien* imitations, yes, that tends to be generic white European.

*It's really more like Tolkien-as-filtered-through-D&D, but w/e
 
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top