SV has an even problem

[Zelinko]

Likes don't matter. Numbers don't matter. Ratings don't matter. The only that does is you and the things you want to write about.

He said, expecting people to start rating his comment.

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I want feedback to improve and find holes I miss either subconsciously or falls into the realm of "looks right to me" but isn't.

It's hard to experiment, get feedback, learn, grow, and evolve as a writer when stepping out of the meta results in such a lack of attention or feedback or anything whatsoever.

It's actually quite demoralizing.

I have to constantly weigh up whether I can afford to try a thing I'm excited to experiment with when the potential loss of feedback/readers looms overhead like a vulture. Or, even worse, what happens if I do try it and it actually does turn out to be a bad bet? Those readers are lost and the chance of them checking up on the thread again to find out I've decided 'yeah, nah, I think I'll retcon that after all' is near nill.

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Yea when I finally put up version 1 of my story up after months of trying to get feedback all I got was drive by ratings even though I was asking for criticism and comments. Lack of feedback good or bad results in the problem for me as silence often makes me wonder if no one read it and why, especially if it wasn't read due to massive flaws that no one is pointing out to me.

I had to ask but beg for feedback which lead to the revised version that I lager put up.

And on asking friends my feedback usually was pretty much what you'd have is we didn't have the reaction buttons, usually empty responses of "It's good" or the like, no real feedback.

Or worse they actually bother to respond with useful things ages after I ask to the point some of my best feedback came after version 1 was up after for weeks skiing for feedback and that was weeks after it was up.

Asking the cat with a degree really only helped with stoke grammar issues that Word didn't snap up.

 

[Kaiya]

Then you're not writing fanfic. You're writing original fiction with characters whose names happen to share those of the characters of the work - OCs in Canon character skinsuits, effectively, which makes it not really fanfic, or at the very least less fanfic. Which is why most Worm fics are fucking terrible. Yes, sometimes a gifted enough writer can still wring a good story out of it, but in the process they make it (barely) fanfiction - which is fine, but then advertising it as such is simply a honeytrap to suck in fans of the work, which brings us to the problems others have raised with leaning on fandoms.



Fine. As long as you have a reason for ignoring a piece of canon, a reason why it wouldn't work in the story you want to tell, that's okay. I generally don't prefer meta reasons like yours, but agreed - trying to shoehorn in compatibility with new plot reveals is nearly impossible, and you probably shouldn't try and do it.

Of course, if the things you don't like about canon rack up too much you do run the risk of what I said about characters above - of the piece becoming (Work) in Name Only, in which case you might as well publish it under its own name and get out from under the thorny expectations of fandom.


Incidentally, I've now actually had an idea for both a Worm coffeeshop AU and a Crime and Punishment Coffeeshop AU. I don't suppose anyone would be interested in reading them

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And you, my friend, are clearly no true Scotsman if that's how you think about fanfiction.

 

[Xon]

I don't think that those elements necessarily make a thing a power fantasy. I think the core thing about power fantasy is about, well, not even just unearned power-but about power being granted to a direct audience surrogate with no negative consequences solely for the sake of letting them do what they want. Basically, it's about being "you" but so much more powerful so you can do what you want without consequence.

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I think the most important aspect of a power fantasies in quest is having power in the first place (aka being able to have an agenda which shapes the narrative). How it is gained or retained is secondary to that the characters/players have agenda/power at all.

This comes down to the audience, on SV. Most people (by a huge margin) who responded to the survey basically reported themselves living at or below the poverty line. Basically being a student sucks.

Having some sort of control or influence over something you are heavily involved in is very seductive, even if it is ultimately a fantasy.

 

[Farmerbob1]

So what you'd call identifiable antagonists is what most people would call sources of conflict, right?

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That would be a fair comparison in most cases, but in some experimental fiction there really is no clearly definable source of conflict.

In Forrest Gump, you could say that life as a mentally challenged man is a source of conflict in and of itself. But there is no real overall identifiable antagonist, unless you want to define the human experience as an antagonist, and that's more than a little nebulous and far reaching. The story is a series of slices of life, vignettes that are a mix of different genres, from war stories to humor. But the writers were good enough to craft that arc of scenes that encapsulated the fascinating life of a mentally challenged man.

 

[LSkullD]

That would be a fair comparison in most cases, but in some experimental fiction there really is no clearly definable source of conflict.

In Forrest Gump, you could say that life as a mentally challenged man is a source of conflict in and of itself. But there is no real overall identifiable antagonist, unless you want to define the human experience as an antagonist, and that's more than a little nebulous and far reaching. The story is a series of slices of life, vignettes that are a mix of different genres, from war stories to humor. But the writers were good enough to craft that arc of scenes that encapsulated the fascinating life of a mentally challenged man.

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^ This.

Stories are about challenges and exploration, not necessarily conflict.

 

[Farmerbob1]

^ This.

Stories are about challenges and exploration, not necessarily conflict.

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Conflict in a literary sense is wider ranging than the commonly used definition of the term. Challenges are normally full of conflict, and exploration frequently is, too.

I cannot think of any fiction longer than a short story off the top of my head with no conflict. In some experimental fiction its still there, but you can't really define or identify it clearly without devoting a substantial chunk of text to do so.

 

[Leila Hann]

That would be a fair comparison in most cases, but in some experimental fiction there really is no clearly definable source of conflict.

In Forrest Gump, you could say that life as a mentally challenged man is a source of conflict in and of itself. But there is no real overall identifiable antagonist, unless you want to define the human experience as an antagonist, and that's more than a little nebulous and far reaching. The story is a series of slices of life, vignettes that are a mix of different genres, from war stories to humor. But the writers were good enough to craft that arc of scenes that encapsulated the fascinating life of a mentally challenged man.

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I think that falls under the Man vs. Nature umbrella, personally. Human nature, but still an impersonal force in and of itself rather than having the personal antagonists you'd get in a Man vs. Man story.

 

[Mutton]

And then you have Joyce with Man vs Prose

 

[Leila Hann]

^ This.

Stories are about challenges and exploration, not necessarily conflict.

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I don't see how you can have a challenge that can't be broken down into a conflict.

If I want to go to the grocery store, but I'm also lazy and don't want to get out of bed, that's Man vs. Himself. Likewise if I want to climb a mountain but might not be strong or agile enough, or navigate a social situation but am too socially inept, or want to be happy but my depression is in the way. A character struggling with their own real or perceived limitations is a type of conflict.

 

[Kaiya]

I don't see how you can have a challenge that can't be broken down into a conflict.

If I want to go to the grocery store, but I'm also lazy and don't want to get out of bed, that's Man vs. Himself. Likewise if I want to climb a mountain but might not be strong or agile enough, or navigate a social situation but am too socially inept, or want to be happy but my depression is in the way. A character struggling with their own real or perceived limitations is a type of conflict.

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I wanted to catch a giant fish, but my boat was too small

 

[Fandom Lord]

And you, my friend, are clearly no true Scotsman if that's how you think about fanfiction.

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How so? You didn't address the actual argument and as has already been pointed out, in-name only adaptions in that style exist. Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality as one example. So it's not No True Scotsman.

 

[LSkullD]

I don't see how you can have a challenge that can't be broken down into a conflict.

If I want to go to the grocery store, but I'm also lazy and don't want to get out of bed, that's Man vs. Himself. Likewise if I want to climb a mountain but might not be strong or agile enough, or navigate a social situation but am too socially inept, or want to be happy but my depression is in the way. A character struggling with their own real or perceived limitations is a type of conflict.

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Point, but not all stories revolve around conflict even if all of them use it to advance their themes.

 

[Kaiya]

How so? You didn't address the actual argument and as has already been pointed out, in-name only adaptions in that style exist. Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality as one example. So it's not No True Scotsman.

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"If it doesn't fit my exact label, it doesn't count" is like the literal definition of No True Scotsman, man. MoR is absolutely a fanfic. It's a bad fanfic in a lot of ways, but it's a fanfic, and if your definition of fanfiction doesn't include fiction written by fans about the fiction they are fans of, it's a stupid definition.

 

[Fandom Lord]

"If it doesn't fit my exact label, it doesn't count" is like the literal definition of No True Scotsman, man. MoR is absolutely a fanfic. It's a bad fanfic in a lot of ways, but it's a fanfic, and if your definition of fanfiction doesn't include fiction written by fans about the fiction they are fans of, it's a stupid definition.

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That's not what was said. The point is that a character named after another character who has nothing in common with that character isn't that character, it's an original character wearing that character's skin.
And you're the one trying to dictate what is and isn't fanfic just as much as anyone else here.

And since you just gave your definition of fanfic, I can just point out that HPMOR doesn't meet that definition. The author is not a fan of Harry Potter (having outright admitted he got his information from the wiki and not having read the books ("Ah, there's our first problem, this fanfic really isn't based on J.K Rowling's books, or even the films. You see when Eliezer Yudkowsky began writing Methods he hadn't actually read the books and got most of his info on the series from either the wiki or other second hand sources.")), so by your definition it isn't fanfic.
"Fanfic" isn't an objective term.

Edit: I apologize, I see you're behind by a lot of posts and haven't read that whole part yet. I'll drop it and let you read that instead of potentially derailing by continually posting what's already been said. The link is there when you're done.

 

[Kaiya]

That's not what was said. The point is that a character named after another character who has nothing in common with that character isn't that character, it's an original character wearing that character's skin.
And you're the one trying to dictate what is and isn't fanfic just as much as anyone else here.

And since you just gave your definition of fanfic, I can just point out that HPMOR doesn't meet that definition. The author is not a fan of Harry Potter, so by your definition it isn't fanfic.
"Fanfic" isn't an objective term.

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yes yes we're both equally intellectually bankrupt bothsides amirite. That isn't my definition of fanfic, that's me taking something incredibly obvious and spelling it out for you. You're making a pretty damn big assertion that Yudkowsky isn't a fan of HP, so I'm gonna need you to source that if you want my reaction to be anything other than 'lolksure'.

 

[Fandom Lord]

Point, but not all stories revolve around conflict even if all of them use it to advance their themes.

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Are there examples of that outside early literature and children's stories? I'd be interested to see how that's done.

 

[all fictions]

Point, but not all stories revolve around conflict even if all of them use it to advance their themes.

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That's...obvious? I don't think anyone was saying the opposite.

Are there examples of that outside early literature and children's stories? I'd be interested to see how that's done.

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I dunno what you mean by "early literature" (the earliest surviving work of literature, The Epic of Gilgamesh, uses conflicts for example) and children's stories here.

 

[Farmerbob1]

Point, but not all stories revolve around conflict even if all of them use it to advance their themes.

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I think your definition of conflict is too restricted. Conflict in literature is extremely broad, not just competition or fighting. Without conflict, the protagonist simply gets what they want without effort.

In turn, if the protagonist gets what they want without effort, then why are you writing the story?

In different words, a story has to be about something that will be interesting to the readers. If you write a conflict-less story, how does that engage the reader? What keeps the reader turning pages?

That's...obvious? I don't think anyone was saying the opposite.

I dunno what you mean by "early literature" (the earliest surviving work of literature, The Epic of Gilgamesh, uses conflicts for example) and children's stories here.

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Reading primer books are frequently barely more than picture books, and some of them are simply statements describing the pictures. Even then, a lot of them have conflict.

For example:

'Tip and Spot need to cross a stream to get their ball.'

There is conflict there. Man vs Nature.

But not all primers have conflict. The best ones do, but some of them are just a series of descriptions of simple images.

For example: 'Tip and Spot see a ball.'

No conflict there. Nothing restricting Tip and Spot at all.

 

[Leila Hann]

I think your definition of conflict is too restricted. Conflict in literature is extremely broad, not just competition or fighting. Without conflict, the protagonist simply gets what they want without effort.

In turn, if the protagonist gets what they want without effort, then why are you writing the story?

In different words, a story has to be about something that will be interesting to the readers. If you write a conflict-less story, how does that engage the reader? What keeps the reader turning pages?

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Eh...there are vignettes about protagonists getting what they want without conflict.

Pretty sure its just vignettes, though.

 

[Farmerbob1]

Eh...there are vignettes about protagonists getting what they want without conflict.

Pretty sure its just vignettes, though.

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Sure, but vignettes are generally only a piece of a story. A memory. A first impression of something. A definable moment of worldbuilding.

Plenty of poetry lacks conflict as well, but a lot of poetry lacks protagonists too, which makes conflict... difficult.

 

[Leila Hann]

I wanted to catch a giant fish, but my boat was too small

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I can't remember if the text explicitly acknowledges this, but there's also an implied Man vs. Himself conflict in "The Old Man and the Sea."

Why didn't Santiago just cut the marlin in half? Or, in whatever pieces he had to to fit most of it onto his boat? It still would have been better than letting the sharks strip the entire thing to the bone. I think it was his own pride that prevented that; he wanted to keep his whole prize to show off, even though that eventually led him to lose the entire thing and his health along with it.

 

[Vindictus]

You know... I'm looking at all the 'but canon tho' arguments in here and thinking, really, who gives a damn about canon anyway?

Fanfic is an inherently transformative enterprise. The underlying premise of fanfiction is to take some existing work, and change it. You cannot write fanfiction without disregarding canon, and you should not be concerned about doing so.

The notion that being 'canon compliant' is necessary and good for fanfic is absurd, and the notion of 'canon purism' should go die in a ditch. We'd all be better off without people breathing down our necks about the 'correct' way to write Character X.

 

[Kaiya]

I can't remember if the text explicitly acknowledges this, but there's also an implied Man vs. Himself conflict in "The Old Man and the Sea."

Why didn't Santiago just cut the marlin in half? Or, in whatever pieces he had to to fit most of it onto his boat? It still would have been better than letting the sharks strip the entire thing to the bone. I think it was his own pride that prevented that; he wanted to keep his whole prize to show off, even though that eventually led him to lose the entire thing and his health along with it.

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Did he have a cutting implement big enough? It was a big damn fish, IIRC, I can't imagine cutting something that size in half with a diving knife or whatever he was likely to have brought. Wouldn't you basically need an actual saw?

 

[Vyslanté]

You cannot write fanfiction without disregarding canon, and you should not be concerned about doing so.

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You cannot write fanfiction without disregarding some of the canon.

 

[Vindictus]

You cannot write fanfiction without disregarding some of the canon.

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That's nice.

So. At what point do we place the cutoff? When do we look at a story and say 'No, that's too original and free-thinking, you're no longer writing true fanfic'? Even assuming we find some cutoff point for that, why does it even matter whether something is 'true fanfic' or not?