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Stealing Fire (Worm SI)

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Mgunh1 said:
In effect, regardless of how Coil's power works exactly, both methods are functionally identical to an outside observer (who, in this case, is literally everyone who isn't Coil, including us the readers) and you are merely arguing semantics and philosophy at this point.
Literally the only person this matters to at all is Coil himself and, even then, only from a purely intellectual standpoint.
Both explainations are valid and both require the exact same method to counter them.
So ultimately, the only thing that maters is how you explain it, and the timeline explaination is easier to remember and communicate to others than the simulation explaination.
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It's true that it looks the same to us, meaning I don't care if the SI keeps believing that's how it works. However, they way those two powers are written are very different from each other, meaning that if you write the story with Coils power working like that you have to either very clearly announce that it's AU, or you will be spreading misinformation on how Coils power work to the readers, which is how his powers was exaggerated to such a degree in the first place. It also tends to help break the SoD of those who knows that Coil is nowhere near that level of power.

Jack Stargazer said:
Yes, this is very true. That is why the SI explained it in that fashion. As far as he (and I) knows, it could operate as a true simulation: in a deterministic universe any suffiently high fidelity simulation of a person's actions is a copy of that person.

And even if it doesn't, from anyone who isn't Coil, it looks the same.
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And as I stated above, I do not care if your SI believes that's how it works, as long as you make sure that the readers knows that's not how his powers work, because you will spread misinformation, and because I know that it doesn't work like that it keeps nagging me. The only problem I have with the way you described Coils power was that you didn't mark it as the SI having wrong information, and that you defended your view even after I linked the WoG saying that no, Coils power does not work like that.

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Skychan said:
Honestly my reasoning for why it is not a simulation is because that would require a deterministic universe or time-travel. This is because he can use information from the 'dropped' reality in the 'actual' reality before he has determined which reality will be 'actual'. So he is simulating two possible timelines and then everyone exists in the one he chooses in a fully 100% determined reality where even he is unable to take different actions and more doesn't even remember what he simulated until time reaches that point, or he lives one reality and simulates a second until a decision point is reached where he then travels back in time to his previous decision point to decide which timeline is actual.

It's simply much easier to claim he either splits the timeline and drops it, or has the ability to see a parallel timeline, (and the coil in that timeline can see back into his) and whenver he 'drops' a timeline he is either re-merging it, or simply cutting the connection to that coil who then gets to live through that timeline having had the suck dropped on him.

Thats actually a kind of funny viewpoint if you think about all the horrible short or bad lives the alternate Coils get because they weren't the lucky one to have the good life. :)
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Much more likely that the shard sees the future instantly and only feed it to Coil real time after manipulating his choice for the "True" timeline. Occam's Razor and all that.

There's a story about that I think, with the various Coils panicking because he's suddenly in a situation where he's fucked because he got the bad choice.
 
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Zardeon said:
It's true that it looks the same to us, meaning I don't care if the SI keeps believing that's how it works. However, they way those two powers are written are very different from each other, meaning that if you write the story with Coils power working like that you have to either very clearly announce that it's AU, or you will be spreading misinformation on how Coils power work to the readers, which is how his powers was exaggerated to such a degree in the first place. It also tends to help break the SoD of those who knows that Coil is nowhere near that level of power.



And as I stated above, I do not care if your SI believes that's how it works, as long as you make sure that the readers knows that's not how his powers work, because you will spread misinformation, and because I know that it doesn't work like that it keeps nagging me. The only problem I have with the way you described Coils power was that you didn't mark it as the SI having wrong information, and that you defended your view even after I linked the WoG saying that no, Coils power does not work like that.

Edit:


Much more likely that the shard sees the future instantly and only feed it to Coil real time after manipulating his choice for the "True" timeline. Occam's Razor and all that.

There's a story about that I think, with the various Coils panicking because he's suddenly in a situation where he's fucked because he got the bad choice.
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The thing is , Wildbow'a statements on how Coil's power works are inconsistent with how he describes precognition working in general, likely because he didn't fully understand the causal implications.

In one post he says that precognition (which is all he claims Coil has - perfect prechosen precognition) doesn't predict the actions of other precognitives. That's a problem, because we see Coil in another timeline querying Dinah and getting accurate answers. But we see that even the Simurgh gets her predictions thrown off by other precognitives interfering - so by WoG Coil's power is a better precog than the Simurgh?! That doesn't make narrative sense.

Much more likely is someone said "Wait a minute, Coils power creates whole worlds? That's insanely OP! Where does the power come from?" And Wildbow responded "uhhh, a precog did it."

In addition, if precognition worked the way he said it did, then the whole universe must be perfectly deterministic. And that doesn't really grok with parallel realities where people can and do make alternate choices.

Hell, the fact that Dinah has a power based on probabilities of events occurring seems to directly contradict determinism. Simurgh too can see multiple paths.

And even then, Coils power would have to simulate people in order to judge their actions so perfectly that the extant timeline prediction perfectly matches reality. Some data just isn't compressible.

You can quote WoG all you want, but if WoG told me Fire was cold, but in story people kept getting burned, I'd probably ignore WoG.

And this class is why I'd like to echo the SI's opinion here:

Fuck precognition.
 
Jack Stargazer said:
The thing is , Wildbow'a statements on how Coil's power works are inconsistent with how he describes precognition working in general, likely because he didn't fully understand the causal implications.

In one post he says that precognition (which is all he claims Coil has - perfect prechosen precognition) doesn't predict the actions of other precognitives. That's a problem, because we see Coil in another timeline querying Dinah and getting accurate answers. But we see that even the Simurgh gets her predictions thrown off by other precognitives interfering - so by WoG Coil's power is a better precog than the Simurgh?! That doesn't make narrative sense.

Much more likely is someone said "Wait a minute, Coils power creates whole worlds? That's insanely OP! Where does the power come from?" And Wildbow responded "uhhh, a precog did it."

In addition, if precognition worked the way he said it did, then the whole universe must be perfectly deterministic. And that doesn't really grok with parallel realities where people can and do make alternate choices.

Hell, the fact that Dinah has a power based on probabilities of events occurring seems to directly contradict determinism. Simurgh too can see multiple paths.

And even then, Coils power would have to simulate people in order to judge their actions so perfectly that the extant timeline prediction perfectly matches reality. Some data just isn't compressible.

You can quote WoG all you want, but if WoG told me Fire was cold, but in story people kept getting burned, I'd probably ignore WoG.

And this class is why I'd like to echo the SI's opinion here:

Fuck precognition.
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Isn't it obvious? Dinah might have been addicted to drugs and coerced into helping him with her precog, but she was still almost INCAPABLE of actively choosing to avoid aiding him in his plans. Whereas literally everyone else is saying fuck the simurgh constantly when working against her, Dinah can only barely bring herself to think of much more than 'please give me the candy'. Thus her shard is likely actively communicating with Coils while he's doing his simulation bullshit.
 
shadowace2400 said:
Isn't it obvious? Dinah might have been addicted to drugs and coerced into helping him with her precog, but she was still almost INCAPABLE of actively choosing to avoid aiding him in his plans. Whereas literally everyone else is saying fuck the simurgh constantly when working against her, Dinah can only barely bring herself to think of much more than 'please give me the candy'. Thus her shard is likely actively communicating with Coils while he's doing his simulation bullshit.
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Except Coil has an Eden shard and Dinah a Scion shard. We have no info on how shard communication and hierarchy works, and at this point that's really just more epicycles.
 
I thought WOG was that dinah's precognition numbers were getting thrown off by coils simulations and he just didnt notice. Because probability is really friggin hard to check.
 
Jack Stargazer said:
The thing is , Wildbow'a statements on how Coil's power works are inconsistent with how he describes precognition working in general, likely because he didn't fully understand the causal implications.

In one post he says that precognition (which is all he claims Coil has - perfect prechosen precognition) doesn't predict the actions of other precognitives. That's a problem, because we see Coil in another timeline querying Dinah and getting accurate answers. But we see that even the Simurgh gets her predictions thrown off by other precognitives interfering - so by WoG Coil's power is a better precog than the Simurgh?! That doesn't make narrative sense.

Much more likely is someone said "Wait a minute, Coils power creates whole worlds? That's insanely OP! Where does the power come from?" And Wildbow responded "uhhh, a precog did it."

In addition, if precognition worked the way he said it did, then the whole universe must be perfectly deterministic. And that doesn't really grok with parallel realities where people can and do make alternate choices.

Hell, the fact that Dinah has a power based on probabilities of events occurring seems to directly contradict determinism. Simurgh too can see multiple paths.

And even then, Coils power would have to simulate people in order to judge their actions so perfectly that the extant timeline prediction perfectly matches reality. Some data just isn't compressible.

You can quote WoG all you want, but if WoG told me Fire was cold, but in story people kept getting burned, I'd probably ignore WoG.

And this class is why I'd like to echo the SI's opinion here:

Fuck precognition.
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amen.
 
Jack Stargazer said:
The thing is , Wildbow'a statements on how Coil's power works are inconsistent with how he describes precognition working in general, likely because he didn't fully understand the causal implications.

In one post he says that precognition (which is all he claims Coil has - perfect prechosen precognition) doesn't predict the actions of other precognitives. That's a problem, because we see Coil in another timeline querying Dinah and getting accurate answers. But we see that even the Simurgh gets her predictions thrown off by other precognitives interfering - so by WoG Coil's power is a better precog than the Simurgh?! That doesn't make narrative sense.

Much more likely is someone said "Wait a minute, Coils power creates whole worlds? That's insanely OP! Where does the power come from?" And Wildbow responded "uhhh, a precog did it."

In addition, if precognition worked the way he said it did, then the whole universe must be perfectly deterministic. And that doesn't really grok with parallel realities where people can and do make alternate choices.

Hell, the fact that Dinah has a power based on probabilities of events occurring seems to directly contradict determinism. Simurgh too can see multiple paths.

And even then, Coils power would have to simulate people in order to judge their actions so perfectly that the extant timeline prediction perfectly matches reality. Some data just isn't compressible.

You can quote WoG all you want, but if WoG told me Fire was cold, but in story people kept getting burned, I'd probably ignore WoG.

And this class is why I'd like to echo the SI's opinion here:

Fuck precognition.
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Coils accuracy is because he only introduces a point of difference and we never see a "long term" prediction.

Stop relying on fanon for your knowledge... Buzz 7.11 :
"No, stop," Coil stopped her, "That doesn't make any sense. You gave me different numbers before. Those numbers are lower than the ones they'd have if I didn't help."
Their powers interfere with each other. The times Dinah gives accurate numbers around Coil is when he's not an active factor.

Coil does experience pre-cog interference, his predictions are simply to short for them to really start having an effect.

When it comes to pre-cog accuracy it seems to be standard that the further away you try to calculate the future, the less accuracy you get, since the amount of choices and possible interactions that needs to be calculated increase exponentially. The whole point of Dinah being unable to do a 100% prediction, the fact that her numbers CHANGE, is because it's impossible for a 100% accurate prediction of the future. Not even Contessa is an excepted from this, even before Eden made her unable to directly see the entities, which is shown with the fact that both the Endbringers (and Eidolon) as well as Mantellum cannot be seen by her power. So no, the universe is not perfectly deterministic. The shards are simply stupidly powerful supercomputers able to do ridiculously accurate models of human behaviour since we're actually rather simple beings to them.

Also, pre-cog interference isn't that they can't see each other, but that their powers keep having to calculate the other guys response, repeating into infinity.

Don't like how Coils power is supposed to work? Fine, mark it as AU and be done with it, don't use faulty information so that the next time someone is about to write Coil they use your version thinking it is correct. Spreading misinformation simply because you didn't want to look up how it actually works, and when it's pointed out to you, you start throw a bunch of false statements on the screen, ignore the posts of the actual author, rather than adding an Edit that says that the SI simply doesn't know how Coils power actually works and is just assuming... Pisses me off, immensely.
 
Zardeon said:
It's true that it looks the same to us, meaning I don't care if the SI keeps believing that's how it works. However, they way those two powers are written are very different from each other
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No, it's not. The difference is perfectly indistinguishable from Coil's perspective, and Coil is the only one who can see both timelines. To everyone else, there's nothing to see. So what difference in writing his power could there possibly be?
 
Iny said:
No, it's not. The difference is perfectly indistinguishable from Coil's perspective, and Coil is the only one who can see both timelines. To everyone else, there's nothing to see. So what difference in writing his power could there possibly be?
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On the surface they are similar, but when you start adding stuff like "If you don't check there he was there" (something I see all too often) that's where the difference is. He was not there, and if you have a way to track him it will show where he is, and thought!You will head towards where he is in thought!Bet.
 
Zardeon said:
Don't like how Coils power is supposed to work? Fine, mark it as AU and be done with it, don't use faulty information so that the next time someone is about to write Coil they use your version thinking it is correct. Spreading misinformation simply because you didn't want to look up how it actually works, and when it's pointed out to you, you start throw a bunch of false statements on the screen, ignore the posts of the actual author, rather than adding an Edit that says that the SI simply doesn't know how Coils power actually works and is just assuming... Pisses me off, immensely.
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We'll, that's fine. There's a quick solution to your anger.

There's the door. Feel free to use it.

Honestly, you come into my thread and try to tell me how to write my story - and not even in a constructive way, just yelling about someone doing it wrong on the Internet.

I'd link the xkcd comic, but I'm on mobile and you frankly aren't worth the hassle.

You ignore or rationalize away anything anyone says you don't like, and you are either being purposefully blind to any other arguments, or you actually can't comprehend that others can have different opinions than you.

You claim I must be ignorant or malicious as I don't accept your words as divine authority.

Either way, I don't need that.

Go do it some where else.
 
Zardeon said:
On the surface they are similar, but when you start adding stuff like "If you don't check there he was there" (something I see all too often) that's where the difference is. He was not there, and if you have a way to track him it will show where he is, and thought!You will head towards where he is in thought!Bet.
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I'll take this to PM.

EDIT: If anyone other than Zardeon would like in on this, PM me and I'll throw them an invite to the conversation.
 
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Jack Stargazer said:
We'll, that's fine. There's a quick solution to your anger.

There's the door. Feel free to use it.

Honestly, you come into my thread and try to tell me how to write my story - and not even in a constructive way, just yelling about someone doing it wrong on the Internet.

I'd link the xkcd comic, but I'm on mobile and you frankly aren't worth the hassle.

You ignore or rationalize away anything anyone says you don't like, and you are either being purposefully blind to any other arguments, or you actually can't comprehend that others can have different opinions than you.

You claim I must be ignorant or malicious as I don't accept your words as divine authority.

Either way, I don't need that.

Go do it some where else.
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Rock on man. This is your story, your word is WOG regarding this fic, and anyone who doesn't like it should just fuck off. Write this story for your own enjoyment and others will enjoy it. Personally, whenever I think of this fic, I begin to giggle maniacally athe where this can go. Can't wait for the next chapter.
 
Gotta agree with Wolfman, and yeah, Coil's power is ridiculously inconsistent anyway. My friends and I agree wholeheartedly with each other that, no offense to Wildbow intended, his skills lie in worldbuilding, not storytelling. Thus, WoG is... not always internally consistent. I suppose Coil's power could function by having admin access to other precog shards to know how they'd react in the simulation, but Coil's shard having that and the Simurgh's not is beyond ridiculous.
 
Wolfman182 said:
Rock on man. This is your story, your word is WOG regarding this fic, and anyone who doesn't like it should just fuck off. Write this story for your own enjoyment and others will enjoy it. Personally, whenever I think of this fic, I begin to giggle maniacally athe where this can go. Can't wait for the next chapter.
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Amen brother
 
You know talking about all of these precogs running around, with all their plans that they are following and interfering with one another with.

I am reminded of the Prophets or Oracles from certain movies or video games that the "source" of the visions that they have been following or leading an army with on a holy mission. Actually come from some Dark God/Goddess or Devil that is manipulating the poor stupid mortal to wipe out their enemies or bring about the end of the world for them.

The Scion shard "source" is to create and promote conflict, like how Tattletale just can't keep her mouth shut when her power feed her a really juicy piece of information that she think will break her opponent and it instead enrages them to attack her. One of my favorite moment of this back firing is Jack Slash cutting her after she has already been warned not to talk.

As for there being limitation to what Coil's power could do I am reminded of Gray Boy's power to stick people in a time bubble that loops over and over again until the end universe. Khonsu had the Endbringer upgrade of creating a field around him where he could accelerate time to age humans into skeletons. So I have no problem believing that Coil can split his own timeline and regardless of what Wildbow says in WoG after the story is finished I am not going to trust it when my own observation tell me the opposite.

After all J. K. Rowling is still trying to convince us that Snape was actually a good man.
 
Jack Stargazer said:
Honestly, you come into my thread and try to tell me how to write my story - and not even in a constructive way, just yelling about someone doing it wrong on the Internet.
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"Head-desks repeatedly" No, I don't care how you write the story, As long as you let people know you're using AU or fanon as a source. That's literally the only point I've actually been trying to push. Do Not Spread Misinformation!

The first post was basically "Coils power are thought based by word of Wildbow, Link to WoG."
You then went and started comparing it to an evil AI, comparing a simulated version of you being tortured, which isn't real no matter how disturbing it would be. If said evil AI created an actual working AI copy of you, and tortured that, it still wouldn't be torturing you but the created AI.
You mentioned how I would have to deny that Dragon is real for saying that Coils simulated timeline isn't real. Dragon is alive, without a doubt, but comparing a fully fledged AI, to what is quite possible a cartoon made by Coils shard makes no sense.

It's completely fine to not like how Wildbow did something and change it, As long as you let people know you changed it. If you don't let them know, they are going to assume that what you write is the same as canon, or those who do know how it works might assume you don't and quote Wildbow.
 
slicedtoad said:
Honestly, perfect precognition/simulation in Worm is kind of dumb since the Entities should have just been doing that rather than the cycles. Sure, you could argue that it takes more energy, except than Contessa and Coil use their power all the time. If Contessa hasn't run out of energy after 30 years...
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I'm pretty sure that the extreme energy efficiency of Contessa's power is a plot point? The thing that fascinated Eden so much she crashed? Scion's version of PtV was far less efficient.
 
So just read through the first chapter... @Jack Stargazer not sure if this may have already been brought up, but why is the Protectorate base in the water "floating on repulsors"?
It's an oil rig, it floats on water and has a force field but I don't recall any mention of it flying anywhere on canon. Was that a deliberate change?
 
zhuull said:
So just read through the first chapter... @Jack Stargazer not sure if this may have already been brought up, but why is the Protectorate base in the water "floating on repulsors"?
It's an oil rig, it floats on water and has a force field but I don't recall any mention of it flying anywhere on canon. Was that a deliberate change?
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finbikkifin said:
There's a ton of weird fanon about both the rig and the PRT HQ, probably just a misinterpretation.
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Yeah, that one's my bad. I must have read fanon on that one more recently. I knew it was originally an oil rig, but I assumed it had been tinkerified more than it had been. I might go back and change it.
 
Zardeon said:
Coil's power does not create a separate timeline, it's purely mental.

"Coil's power doesn't create universes. It's essentially precognition in the present, purely thought based."
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I wrote a long reply, but reading on i noticed that the author of the thread have essentially said much of it already.

So, i´ll just add a short version of what i wrote.


To be purely "thought based", it requires his power to KNOW perfectly which timeline he will drop in the end. No matter what. It´s essentially taking Contessa´s power, removing blind spots and all kinds of interference completely and then level it up AGAIN, because even Contessa can fail(by "asking the wrong question"/trying to achieve the wrong thing etc). It is as if Dinah could answer unlimited number of questions with nothing but 0% or 100%. Constantly, all the time.

If one timeline was a simulation, he could not retroactively choose which was real, because there´s no guarantee that that choice could be predicted. There´s just too much external effects, too much interference from other thinkers, etc etc for the "purely thought based" to work.


Edit: apology if mod dislike, didn´t see it until after posted.
 
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Jack Stargazer said:
It's a full fidelity mental reconstruction. It perfects reproduces the actions taken by people as well as the physical interactions and basic laws of the world itself. Coil can flip a coin, and the coin lands the same in both realities.

And based on the processing power we have seen shards use, as well as the lack of moral encumbrances on entities, there is no reason to not assume that it creates full simulations of people, inside that simulation, each time it begins to run a new one. Processing power is not something Shards need to conserve in any way. Dinah's predictive powers are global in scope, and that's not even taking into account the Path.

If that's the case, then although Coil's power is technically a simulation, the people inside it are no less real for being simulations. If you think that they don't exist simply because they aren't physical beings, you also would have to deny personhood to Dragon, Weld (who has a complete metal body, and so whose software must be running on his shard) and Alexandria (who by WOG is running on her shard).

In effect, Coil's power creates an infomorph version of you, running on the hardware of his shard. Because the entities have no sense of human lives as important or meaningful, and as the universe is purely deterministic, when the simulations ends, your eigenself in the simulation also ceases to exist.

From inside however, the simulation is perfect. You have no way of knowing whether you are in the simulation or not. So when you are standing in front of Coil holding the gun, there is an equal likelihood that you are in the simulated timeline, and by firing you doom yourself.

Edit: Though to be fair, if the universe is perfectly deterministic, you never had any choice anyways, and you have no way of exiting the simulation or surviving beyond the point its calculated to end, so you may as well stick it to Coil on the way out.
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so, what I'm getting from this is that even if it is a completely physically incorrect answer, it is a more useful answer? This is the answer that most effectively alters TT's behavior so she will stick it to coil when he tries to get answers from her...?
 
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