Stark Quest 2.0: The Protector of Pentos

[notmi]

We don't really need Balon to accept the land as a compromise, just Ned. I don't care if Balon is pissed and tries to raid us or something, he's likely to do that anyway, and it's something we can prepare for and counter-act. But having Ned randomly give away one of our shards because of Honor would be a major blow. If we can convince Ned to keep the shards and not give anything too valuable to Balor, then we should do that, but otherwise, giving up some land isn't a big sacrifice.

 

[DragonParadox]

We don't really need Balon to accept the land as a compromise, just Ned. I don't care if Balon is pissed and tries to raid us or something, he's likely to do that anyway, and it's something we can prepare for and counter-act. But having Ned randomly give away one of our shards because of Honor would be a major blow. If we can convince Ned to keep the shards and not give anything too valuable to Balor, then we should do that, but otherwise, giving up some land isn't a big sacrifice.

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It goes against his primary character motivation which is so strong it kills him and destroys his house, in canon. It is not going to happen.

 

[notmi]

It goes against his primary character motivation which is so strong it kills him and destroys his house, in canon. It is not going to happen.

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You are talking about Ned, right? Regardless of what we do, no one is actually expecting us to let him give away a set of shards, are they?

 

[DragonParadox]

You are talking about Ned, right? Regardless of what we do, no one is actually expecting us to let him give away a set of shards, are they?

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How are we going to stop him? Depose him?

 

[notmi]

How are we going to stop him? Depose him?

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We have a great deal of options available to us, and I'm sure we can be pretty convincing. But, to be frank, Ned can take his honor and shove it up his ass. There's some serious shit going on soon, and we need every possible advantage. I'm not saying we should kill him or attack him with control sequences, but I'm sure we know enough about him, alongside our mental stats and Dany/Erina manipulation stats, to guide him into a non-idiot choice. If we have to make a compromise, like giving Balor land, then that's fine, but giving away shards is not acceptable.

 

[DragonParadox]

We have a great deal of options available to us, and I'm sure we can be pretty convincing. But, to be frank, Ned can take his honor and shove it up his ass. There's some serious shit going on soon, and we need every possible advantage. I'm not saying we should kill him or attack him with control sequences, but I'm sure we know enough about him, alongside our mental stats and Dany/Erina manipulation stats, to guide him into a non-idiot choice. If we have to make a compromise, like giving Balor land, then that's fine, but giving away shards is not acceptable.

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It is the GM's stated position that you can not take away NPC agency without magic. Even a TP is not enough to make someone abandon a concept around which they have built their entire life. So no, we do not have any options short of mind control, which would be OOC to use. Those Shards are a lost cause.

 

[Van Ropen]

It is the GM's stated position that you can not take away NPC agency without magic. Even a TP is not enough to make someone abandon a concept around which they have built their entire life. So no, we do not have any options short of mind control, which would be OOC to use. Those Shards are a lost cause.

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"Oh, sorry father. Those are Erina's Shards, not House Stark's. Woops.

...don't tell me you'd steal from a woman!"


/foolproof, Int 10+Wis 10 baby.

 

[Jorlem]

You expect Balon Greyjoy a fanatic, a madman and a fool to accept limits on his people's favorite, divinely mandated pastime?

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Limits, no. But getting him to focus on slavers, possibly by promising to help/participate, or send men of our own to do so? Possibly.

If we could move them even slightly along the scale between pirates and privateers, that would be a significant improvement, at least in my mind.

 

[notmi]

It is the GM's stated position that you can not take away NPC agency without magic. Even a TP is not enough to make someone abandon a concept around which they have built their entire life. So no, we do not have any options short of mind control, which would be OOC to use. Those Shards are a lost cause.

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I'm sorry, all knowing DragonParadox, thank you for enlightening me of the future, O Great Seer.

Don't talk about things in absolutes, it's incredibly annoying. We can guess, but we can't know for sure how he will react and what he will be open to until we meet him and talk to him. I happen to think he can be convinced, you don't. That means we have different opinions, something that happens quite often on the internet. I'd appreciate it if you didn't argue your opinions as irrefutable facts.

 

[Van Ropen]

Limits, no. But getting him to focus on slavers, possibly by promising to help/participate, or send men of our own to do so? Possibly.

If we could move them even slightly along the scale between pirates and privateers, that would be a significant improvement, at least in my mind.

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NO FUCK YOU WAHHH FUCKING GREENLANDERS HERP HERP SPARE ME YOUR PITY DERP DERP WE DO NOT SOW BLAH BLAH BLAH I PAY THE IRON PRICE GRRRRR -Balon Greyjoy

Harlon: ...there you go Jon. I tried to negotiate. Now can I sacrific- utilize these reagents?

 

[DragonParadox]

I'm sorry, all knowing DragonParadox, thank you for enlightening me of the future, O Great Seer.

Don't talk about things in absolutes, it's incredibly annoying. We can guess, but we can't know for sure how he will react and what he will be open to until we meet him and talk to him. I happen to think he can be convinced, you don't. That means we have different opinions, something that happens quite often on the internet. I'd appreciate it if you didn't argue your opinions as irrefutable facts.

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Would it help if I added: "In my opinion, based on Ned's cannon behavior and the GM's explications on how the quest mechanics work" to the above? Because I thought that was implied.

 

[notmi]

Would it help if I added in my opinion, based on Ned's cannon behavior and the GM's explications on how the quest mechanics work, to the above? Because I thought that was implied.

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I don't have a problem with you stating your opinion, or arguing for it. What I have a problem with is the way you are presenting it. It annoys me when you say, for example:

On the whole convincing Ned to keep Theon's Shards. Not going to happen Ned's an idiot and we can't force him.

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we do not have any options short of mind control, which would be OOC to use. Those Shards are a lost cause.

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These are presented as facts, but they are opinions based on your interpretation of his character. It's just a bit of a pet-peeve of mine to see this done.

 

[DragonParadox]

I don't have a problem with you stating your opinion, or arguing for it. What I have a problem with is the way you are presenting it. It annoys me when you say, for example:


These are presented as facts, but they are opinions based on your interpretation of his character. It's just a bit of a pet-peeve of mine to see this done.

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I see. I just use it as a way to show certainty or near certainty on my part. I'll add the qualifiers from now on if it bugs you.

 

[Enjou]

Perhaps Balon might be more willing to accept if we make sure that the land is on the ocean, so he could use it as a base for his reaving? (This does have a few rather obvious downsides, though... Maybe we could point him at slavers?)

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Absolutely not. I was actually thinking it would be inland by a fair bit. We don't want to risk war with our neighbors for harboring pirates in our borders.

It is the GM's stated position that you can not take away NPC agency without magic. Even a TP is not enough to make someone abandon a concept around which they have built their entire life. So no, we do not have any options short of mind control, which would be OOC to use. Those Shards are a lost cause.

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Mazrick stated that Ned may feel honor bound to return the Shards. He may not. But Theon's death is a big deal regardless, and he will most certainly feel that compensation to Balon is due. The idea I put forward is essentially perpetual weregild that should be sufficient in Ned's view, and might satisfy Balon's pride such that he'd actually lay off reaving the North when Westeros goes to shit. That part is still iffy, but it's a better possibility than either Shards or a lump sum of gold which he'd more likely use against us.

"Oh, sorry father. Those are Erina's Shards, not House Stark's. Woops.

...don't tell me you'd steal from a woman!"


/foolproof, Int 10+Wis 10 baby.

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Funny, but keep in mind that Ned is wearing a set of Shards of his own. (which given Justice has apparently been in the family for a while, might be the ones taken from Balon)

 

[DragonParadox]

Absolutely not. I was actually thinking it would be inland by a fair bit. We don't want to risk war with our neighbors for harboring pirates in our borders.



Mazrick stated that Ned may feel honor bound to return the Shards. He may not. But Theon's death is a big deal regardless, and he will most certainly feel that compensation to Balon is due. The idea I put forward is essentially perpetual weregild that should be sufficient in Ned's view, and might satisfy Balon's pride such that he'd actually lay off reaving the North when Westeros goes to shit. That part is still iffy, but it's a better possibility than either Shards or a lump sum of gold which he'd more likely use against us.




Funny, but keep in mind that Ned is wearing a set of Shards of his own. (which given Justice has apparently been in the family for a while, might be the ones taken from Balon)

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This plan requires

1 Balon Greyjoy to see the intrinsic value of more land (land he cannot reeve from no less) when the man is obsessed to the point of insane zealotry with paying the Iron Price for anything he gains ("We do not sow")

2 Ned Stark, the man who GRRM conceived as a deconstruction of the overly honorable character archetype often found in fantasy, to put practicality before honor

I don't think it has much of a chance.

 

[Alratan]

Because encouraging her to be feminine isn't going to work, and we know OOC that she's got the talent for it.

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The thing is, it isn't a talent we want to encourage her to use.

Well of course they targeted enemy wargs. Denying the enemy strategic resources is a basic tenet of warfare. Do you think we're not going to specifically target enemy mages for elimination just because we are one? Do you have any instances of the Starks eliminating their own wargs?

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The fact that at some point they purged all knowledge relating to magic

Because rewarding your followers for exceptional service makes sense? Also, it might be sensible to establish at least some nobility outside of the forty families whose loyalty is questionable.

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I think the thing to focus on is making the Forty Families loyal. Breaking with tradition a creating additional nobles houses in places where a thousand years of tradition says there's a fixed number doesn't seem sensible to me.

Given the title of Shardbearer means a great deal in Essos, I could see this being considered as something not very positive. It could go either way in terms of perception, but it's still a risk.

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Well, there's two sides to it, as more people would have the chance to be Shardbearers.

Also, in a world where decapitation strikes by gateway are a thing do you really want to have regularly scheduled times when your are down a full Shardbearer that your enemies can take advantage of?

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Then make the changeover times pseudo random and have them happen somewhere shielded from Observation.

They clearly believe in the notion of inheritance, and I imagine that if men die when reaving their families get at least some of the loot. The important thing here is that we took over Pentos by FORCE OF ARMS. We killed our enemies and took their land, their gold, and their shinies. That seems pretty fucking iron price to me. One enemy was specifically Illyrio Mopatis, and we're taking everything that fucker owned that we can get our grubby little mits on, including his lands. Theon was involved in that, and if we claim he was involved in combat we can say he paid the iron price for his share.

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Yes. We did. Theon just died. Remember that he's a grown man who came here voluntarily. Rewarding his father for that, when his father holds him in contempt anyway, does not strike me as a great plan.

Yeah, good luck with that, because its not happening. Ned will make us give him a set of Shards or a very large weregild (giving him a good warchest to use against us) since we can now afford it. Because his honor would demand it, like Mazrick told us, and Ned it NOT going to be talked down from ensuring honor is met in some form or fashion. Neither option will stop Balon from targeting us eventually. The point of this idea is that we'd giving Balon something significant enough that Ned's sense of honor is satisfied, but that we can also then later deny him if he attacks us anyways. It either works and means we have one less enemy to deal with for a while (and a possible future ally/tool in the form of Asha Greyjoy against the far greater threat of Euron Grejoy, possible Champion of the Dark One) or it doesn't and we effectively give Balon nothing just like you'd prefer.

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I don't believe weregilds are a concept that exists in Westeros. The reason that Eddard would return Theon's shards is that they're arguably Greyjoy propety, and with Theon dead he has no justification to hang on to them. It's not about restitution for his death. Giving Balon something else doesn't help with that. The case we need to make is that they were never Theon's shards, and that they've been Stark spoils of wars since they were taken from the Greyjoys in the first place.

Why is now the best time? Aren't we going to be really fucking busy dealing with other crap by your own admission? The wildlings are gathering, the Others are coming, war with the Lannisters is probably still on the horizon, the North's navies are likely to take quite a few more months to complete and wouldn't be as experienced as the ironborn at sea anyways, and oh let's not forget the Red Demon and his slaves that we declared war against. Robert might be able to swing us some support, but with the war in the South that's not all that likely - he'd probably just expect us to perform another miracle like we did in Pentos. If you ask me another conflict is the last thing we need. Sure, we need to prepare for it, but if we can stop it that would be preferable.

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Because busy as we personally are now, once we've hired mercenaries to reinforce the Wall this is probably the best time, strategically, for a war between the North and the Iron Islands.

Also, what does war with the Iron Islands actually get us? The Iron Islands are practically worthless - they are the smallest and poorest region of the Seven Kingdoms. It's the entire reason they have a raiding culture to begin with. We'd gain two sets of Shards at most and perhaps a few magical artifacts if we're lucky, but not without great cost in terms of money and manpower, and the territory gained would be a drain on us economically since only reaving makes them viable.

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They were doing just fine surviving without a raiding culture under Balon's father. They were just poor. In any case, I don't have any desire to rule them, just smash them hard enough that they're no longer a player.

And also what makes you think Balon won't bide his time and wait to strike at us when we're perceived to be vulnerable? Harlon is not the only one who foresees Westeros inevitably fracturing.

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We are talking about Balon, quite possibly the stupidest man on Planetos, here.

Sure, but now it's certain. Why don't you just see if you can get them a forsaken via omake while you're at it. Jerk.

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I'll see what I can do

 

[Jorlem]

I don't believe weregilds are a concept that exists in Westeros. The reason that Eddard would return Theon's shards is that they're arguably Greyjoy propety, and with Theon dead he has no justification to hang on to them. It's not about restitution for his death. Giving Balon something else doesn't help with that. The case we need to make is that they were never Theon's shards, and that they've been Stark spoils of wars since they were taken from the Greyjoys in the first place.

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Wasn't there a big discussion on appropriate weregild to send to the Hightowers in compensation for Lord Hightowers' death? (I'm blanking on his first name)

 

[DragonParadox]

The thing is, it isn't a talent we want to encourage her to use.

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I will have to sadly agree with you here. The fact of the matter is if we do not screw up bad Arya won't have the need or the opportunity do be half as scary and awesome as she was in canon.

The fact that at some point they purged all knowledge relating to magic.

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Or it could have faded into legend as no more Wargs and such were born south of the Wall

In any case this is something Harlon would know about IC:

@Mazrick how are magics other then Blood magic viewed in the North?

Then make the changeover times pseudo random and have them happen somewhere shielded from Observation.

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Three will still be times at which you won't have access to shards and the observation deference is not perfect.

 

[Enjou]

This plan requires

1 Balon Greyjoy to see the intrinsic value of more land (land he cannot reeve from no less) when the man is obsessed to the point of insane zealotry with paying the Iron Price for anything he gains ("We do not sow")

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The ironborn are not above conquest and taking land. They once conquered the Riverlands and set up shop there, until Aegon the Conquerer came with his dragons and he booted them out for refusing to take the knee - see Harrenhal. The idea is that we say that Theon killed a guy when we were fighting Illyrio, and so he earned a share of the loot (Illyrio's lands in this case) and thus paid the iron price for it.

It might not work. That's not the main point of it anyways. Anything we give Balon has a chance of not satisfying him, and either Shards or a lump sum of gold could be used against us in war and are extremely unlikely to satisfy him. This option is still iffy, but if he isn't satisfied and reaves the North anyways we can just take it back so he can't use it against us.

2 Ned Stark, the man who GRRM conceived as a deconstruction of the overly honorable character archetype often found in fantasy, to put practicality before honor

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No, the point of the land option is that it acts as perpetual compensation - gold will slowly trickle into the Greyjoy coffers, generation after generation. It acts as suitable compensation, so honor is met. The context of this idea is that Mazrick confirmed that perpetual trade concessions to House Hightower would be seen by Westeros at large as suitable compensation for Leyton and Malora's deaths while they were helping us, so presumably a similar perpetual weregild would be acceptable to Ned. In this case it also acts as a hostage (which Ned is not above taking, as evidenced by Theon himself) we can take back if Balon decides to reave the North anyways. It's the best of both worlds.

 

[DragonParadox]

The ironborn are not above conquest and taking land. They once conquered the Riverlands and set up shop there, until Aegon the Conquerer came with his dragons and he booted them out for refusing to take the knee - see Harrenhal. The idea is that we say that Theon killed a guy when we were fighting Illyrio, and so he earned a share of the loot (Illyrio's lands in this case) and thus paid the iron price for it.

It might not work. That's not the main point of it anyways. Anything we give Balon has a chance of not satisfying him, and either Shards or a lump sum of gold could be used against us in war and are extremely unlikely to satisfy him. This option is still iffy, but if he isn't satisfied and reaves the North anyways we can just take it back so he can't use it against us.

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1 Suspect Haren the Black and his kind were in fact much more reasonable about the tenets of their religion than Balon
2 Balon held his son in contempt he is not going to believe that version of the story and when the true story comes out, likely from the Hightower men, he will foam at the mouth... well more than usually

No, the point of the land option is that it acts as perpetual compensation - gold will slowly trickle into the Greyjoy coffers, generation after generation. It acts as suitable compensation, so honor is met. The context of this idea is that Mazrick confirmed that perpetual trade concessions to House Hightower would be seen by Westeros at large as suitable compensation for Leyton and Malora's deaths while they were helping us, so presumably a similar perpetual weregild would be acceptable to Ned. In this case it also acts as a hostage (which Ned is not above taking, as evidenced by Theon himself) we can take back if Balon decides to reave the North anyways. It's the best of both worlds.

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3 House Hightower are the lords of Oldtown they understand and value trade. The Ironborn and particularly Balon Greyjoy will see no value in this. In fact he will likely see it as an insult (Trying to make a greenlander out of him)

 

[Alratan]

Wasn't there a big discussion on appropriate weregild to send to the Hightowers in compensation for Lord Hightowers' death? (I'm blanking on his first name)

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It wasn't weregild though, remember that as far as everyone knows we came to Pentos on a joint exercise, or even the less senior partner to Lord Hightower. We're not making reparations for getting him killed, we're giving him his share of his conquest that he paid for. We're still reliant on Hightower Knights and guardsmen, for example.

Or it could have faded into legend as no more Wargs and such were born south of the Wall

In any case this is something Harlon would know about IC:

@Mazrick how are magics other then Blood magic viewed in the North?

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Plenty of wargs are born south of the Wall (1/1,000 people of strong First Men blood). There will be several untrained Greenseers around as well (1/1,000,000). They just don't ever develop their talents.

Three will still be times at which you won't have access to shards and the observation deference is not perfect.

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Eight hours a month is pretty trivial compared to the Westerosi custom of not wearing sharplate at home.

 

[DragonParadox]

Eight hours a month is pretty trivial compared to the Westerosi custom of not wearing sharplate at home.

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A bonded Shardbearer can summon his plate and blade in heartbeats.

 

[Jorlem]

A bonded Shardbearer can summon his plate and blade in heartbeats.

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Isn't it just the blade that can be summoned?

 

[Ishaq]

If we give them their Shardplate back they will use it against us. If we give them gold, they will use it against us and still be pissed. If we give them land, they will not be able to use it against us and will be pissed. Easy option.
If we provoke war with that, even better. The sooner they are dead, the better. Bobby B. will have a boner over all this war, we are starting. At least we are sort of unifying the seven Kingdoms (Most of them) with all this.

@Mazrick why would Ned want to give it back? I don´t really understand it. Theon was a Hostage, yes. But the Shardplate was won in war. It was not stolen. I understand, that it is an iniquity to take Shards away from a family, but war should have other Rules. Because war has always different rules than peace. If a house is totally broken and loses, they should have no right in keeping their things, lands, nor their lifes. And by this logic the Shardplate should be property of House Stark now, like the one we got from the Prince of Pentos is.

 

[DragonParadox]

If we give them their Shardplate back they will use it against us. If we give them gold, they will use it against us and still be pissed. If we give them land, they will not be able to use it against us and will be pissed. Easy option.
If we provoke war with that, even better. The sooner they are dead, the better. Bobby B. will have a boner over all this war, we are starting. At least we are sort of unifying the seven Kingdoms (Most of them) with all this.

@Mazrick why would Ned want to give it back? I don´t really understand it. Theon was a Hostage, yes. But the Shardplate was won in war. It was not stolen. I understand, that it is an iniquity to take Shards away from a family, but war should have other Rules. Because war has always different rules than peace. If a house is totally broken and loses, they should have no right in keeping their things, lands, nor their lifes. And by this logic the Shardplate should be property of House Stark now, like the one we got from the Prince of Pentos is.

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I suspect it's because it wasn't the North's War. It was Robert's. So Robert imposed pace and one of the conditions of said pace was Theon and his Shards would be hostages to House Stark.

Now if in Nedd were more practical, not to say sane, he would reinterpret the terms of the pace in such a way as the Starks would keep the Shards. Robert likes him a lot more than Balon so he would back him up. But well Nedd's an idiot, hence why I want him to hurry up and die.