Stark Quest 2.0: The Protector of Pentos

People who aid them who've sworn allegiance to him are certainly traitors.



Well, it's messy. Particularly as Viserys was very likely crowned before Robert. Essentially, this just isn't a question of law. Viserys isn't a criminal. He's a defeated enemy. That's a whole other kettle of fish.



I can see approaches that are mutually supporting rather than splitting focus. Particularly ones that say this is how he proves himself to be a great King and throws Aerys' true villainy in stark contrast. The Targaryens killed three Starks. As we only have two Targaryens, they're still short one, so death is inadequate punishment for Viserys, and he doesn't deserve that mercy, etc. Condemning him to live in the North and serve to make good some of the damage his family has done may could be a worse fate.

I don't think Viserys has ever been crowned. By the time king Aerys kicked the bucket, Viserys was too busy gettin the fuck out of Westeros to be properly crowned. And I beleive the ceremon involvs High Septon.

Besides, it's not like it matters. Bobby B commands Westeros and claims Viserys is a pretender. So he is, because Bobby B says so.
 
I don't think Viserys has ever been crowned. By the time king Aerys kicked the bucket, Viserys was too busy gettin the fuck out of Westeros to be properly crowned. And I beleive the ceremon involvs High Septon.

Viserys was crowned on Dragonstone when Rhaella found out that Aerys was dead, and was there for months afterwards. The High Septon isn't needed to crown a King.

Besides, it's not like it matters. Bobby B commands Westeros and claims Viserys is a pretender. So he is, because Bobby B says so.

Well, yes. However, it's still kind of awkward. I rather suspect that everyone likes to politely ignore what happened during the Rebellion, mainly because lots of people killed lots of other people, and now they all need to pretend to get on. It's not the kind of thing that you want to draw attention to. Easiest for

On that note, I'm surprised to this day that the Lords of the Narrow Sea didn't just shank Stannis at the beginning of the War of the Five Kings and say he'd had an 'accident' and then sit the war out. They had no reason to have any affection for the Baratheons. Why not let them kill each other without getting involved?
 
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In the tv show, it's ridiculous, the Iron Bank lets Stannis make his case, was likely to let him leave when he was about to be denied a loan by them.

Stability pays better in getting your money back, want stability? Then Stannis shouldn't be treated as just another customer.
 
I'm not sure. We'll probably still be pretty boring in all all work and no play makes Harlon a dull boy kind of way.

I was thinking more in the line of that we're not spending all our time in a library reading. The stuff we do might be work oriented, but it'll be a good bit more interesting I'd think. We're also going to spend more time in the training yard, which Arya would like.

I don't think Arya and Daenerys will get on without us working at it, and I think that might be for the best until we cure Daenerys of Tavar's taint. Arya's rejections of the trappings of femininity is still pretty childish, and Daenerys is very likely to be on her best and most lady-like behaviour.

I don't think Arya would dislike Dany just because she's more on the feminine side. Most of the other women who are of that archetype try to force her to adhere to it, and Dany should know enough from learning our Name that doing so as well would not be the best approach. She'd likely encourage Arya to pursue her own interests, but might make a few suggestions. I could see Arya liking to learn how to act and manipulate people. Also, the whole "has magic" thing would probably appeal to Arya.


None of them at all. We should be Prince of Pentos, and we should redistribute the Magisters' land to the peasantry to create a rural middle class of yeomen that are freeholders of the land subject only to us. That's a much better situation to be in, and should significantly boost both the economy and the population's loyalty to us and our House, as well as allowing us to make much better armies of citizen soldiers down the line. Creating a class of foreign absentee landlords is just going to cause enormous problems.

With the coming of channeling, this is a vastly better setup, given we will hopefully be able to invent patriotism and enlightened despotism in the process. We've no need to create a system of nobility where one doesn't exist at the moment.

1. Any ideas on how we go about determining who to distribute the land to? There are a lot of peasants in Pentos, so we'd have to pick based on some criteria. Not saying it's not doable, but waiting till the OP arrives and channelers are evidence may not work well and getting the land distributed means we don't have to manage it ourselves.

2. To be clear, I wasn't saying they'd be ruling from afar and be absentee. The families getting land would establish branch families there, who would move in and build their keeps or what have you. However, I do see your point in that doing something different might be better.

3. What you propose might be ideal for Harlon, but you're forgetting the political situation at home. It's a radical departure from how things are done in Westeros, and while I think we can get away with some changes due to Pentos being different we can't get away with doing things too differently. There's also the fact that it would probably be expected we'd give lands out to our loyal vassals. However, like I said we can probably get away with a somewhat different system just due to the fact that Pentos is different from Westeros and has handled things differently for a long time. A hybrid system might not be amiss. How about something like this:

A) We take half the land and do what you suggest with it. Find noteworthy non-nobles and distribute the land among them to establish a rural middle class. Doing this to establish loyalty with the locals would probably be acceptable to the nobility.

B) We take the rest of the land (keeping a bit for the Prince) and distribute it to various houses in the North who can establish branch families in Pentos. Amount of land given will vary based on the prominence of the family. However, we set up the law so that land management differs from how it's done in Westeros. Instead of having serfs who rent the land and give a portion of their crop or sales of their crops over as tax, they would manage the land and employ paid laborers to work it and are responsible for selling the fruits of their lands directly to make their money, though still paying a tax to the Prince directly. Land can also be bought and sold much more freely than it normally is in Westeros. I think this might get them into a more mercantile mindset, rather than a feudal one, which I think meets what you're aiming for. However, they still hold the status of nobility, which confers status, prestige, and possibly a few benefits.

C) Pentos's military is centralized, like it probably is in the rest of the Free Cities, though the nobility are expected to have a tradition of martial (and perhaps later civil) service and have some of their sons serve as officers. All Shards of Pentos, excepting any brought over by the nobles moving in or already owned like the Mormont Shards, are owned by the Prince. (we'll inevitably get more Shards for this in time) The Prince gives worthy nobles in Pentos the honor of bearing Shards for him in defense of Pentos and the realm. (for example, Hallis of House Mollen has proven his worth with leal service, to set the precedent) Maybe give such people a shiny extra title, like "Sword of Pentos" or something.

Just to note, it should also be kept in mind that we're not seizing all the rural land in Pentos. Some will be owned by non-magisters.
 
There's also the fact that it would probably be expected we'd give lands out to our loyal vassals.
...why? When the Boltons bent the knee to the King's of Winter, were the Umber's granted lands in some of the new territory?

It's one thing to reward vassals at the end of a campaign where they contributed, that isn't the situation at all. Want to curb any jealousy? Our Presence alone and the benefit to the North should help a great deal, but if we want to go further offer them the chance to buy into a joint trading venture. Rewards for everyone with no real effort on their part, and we get a bit more capital to play with as Pentos finds its feet again.
 
And new omake. I finished it before going to bed after all:

Hidden magic part 3

Memory of Rhoynar

Mother Ysilla had come to feel everyone of her sixty seven years in her bones particularly when the weather on the Greenblood turned stormy. So even though she was otherwise as sure-footed in the boat as she had been in her youth she went bellow, so as not to get in people's way, when she saw the storm approaching. Summer storms were not typically dangerous to river traffic unless they caught a boat on a particularly bad patch of water so she thought nothing more of it until the boat shook violently and then stopped completely. She could recognize that well enough, it was something no riverman or riverwoman wanted to feel, they had ran aground.

After getting back on deck she saw that they had hit a submerged log close to the bank and then her eldest son, Willas, the boat's captain had aimed for the to avoid sinking. To make things worse one of the spice cases dad broken spilling its contents, more precious than gold, into the cargo hold. Well they had endured worse loss, granted not well so there was nothing more to do than get to fixing it.

First they had to remove some of the more fragile objects form the boat, Ysilla personally handling her books on Rhoynish History and other priceless heirlooms form the Old Country. Some of the ones with more practical use could very react badly indeed to improper handling she thought as her fingers caressed a blue-green ritual boll dedicated to Mother Rhoyne. Finding no cracks she sighed in relief. This was among the most rare of magical artifacts, one that empowered healing concoctions or even simple water depending on how much of her life the mage was willing to sacrifice. She then checked the Turtle's Shield no harm there, of course. Legend had it that it could shed Dragonfire though she had her doubts. After all Rhoynar had lost the Last War against the Freehold. Last of all she checked the Flint Blade. Out of all of them this served the darkest purpose. It was an instrument of Blood Magic, not Blood Magic as the Valyrians practiced it killing tens of thousands, no. This instrument made from flint found at the source of the Mother River itself was an instrument of self-sacrifice to empower one desperate act of magic at great need, or so the story went. The priestess rather doubted that as for all her sincere faith in her Goddess she was considerably less sure of the purity of spirit of some of her predecessors. There had been some suspicious bouts of good luck in the family's past which did not correspond with the death of a priestess.

Having finished this task including the removal of more mundane but no less vital "treasures" such as cooking wares all the able bodied crew, not including Ysilla though she argued quite a bit about it, pulled the boat fully on to shore.

Fortunately the storm had knocked over some trees and fallen trees could, by law and custom both, be claimed for firewood or other desperate need as long as the local lord was repaid in a timely manner. So the men began the long laborious process of cutting planks with which to patch the hull under the direction of the boat's carpenter.

***​

Two days later the crew's labor was interrupted by the sound of a hunting horn.

A misfortune never comes alone. Ysilla thought quoting an old Rhoynish proverb to herself. Sure enough the hunt must have spotted them as it changed direction to head towards them. Not like there's much cover the old woman thought resignedly. Beyond the wooded riverbank the tallest plants were thorny shrubs.

A few moments later the riders reached them. At their head a brightly dressed fellow with unusually pale skin for a Dornishman reddened by the sun. He spoke:

"I am ser Cletus Yronwood and these are my family's lands. Are you responsible for the felling of these trees?"

"No milord, they were felled by the storm that forced us aground" Willas said in his best imitation of one of the Drylander Smallfolk

The lord opened his mouth to answer likely to claim restitution there and then most likely all the rest of their trade goods as he looked to be in a foul mood due to lack of luck at the hunt. Seeing that the old woman touched the last of the treasures given into her keeping, the Tear of Mother Rhoyne, a clear gem that when combined with certain patterns of thought could bend the minds of men. So she gently nudged him into feeling more magnanimous, after all they were but poor rivermen without even land to call their own. Ysilla smiled inwardly when her son used that very argument. As if we would want any such thing, Orphans we might be but we will never build our own prison and take pride in it.

In the end the price was painful but bearable. As she was getting ready to turn in for the night her grand-nice Lysa, whom she was grooming to be her successor accosted her:

"I saw what you did Mother. Why did you not make it so that he would leave us in pace without demanding recompense at all? We are hard pressed enough as it is." she asked trying to be respectful but not quite managing to keep the pendulant tone out of her voice.

"Because child the treasures of the Goddess are ours to keep not to use. Would you have us make a crutch of magic? Forget how to use herbs to heal because we have the boll, concern ourselves no more with trading because we have the Tear." She did not mention the sacrificial blade and her suspicions as to how it had been used before as she did not want to disillusion the girl too much "If I had done more others besides yourself would have noticed. It would debase the Mother's relics and lessen our people both. The time of magic has passed and every year it grows weaker."

So did Ysilla give advice that had been given time and time again from one priestess to the next. However now for the first time since the death of the last Dragon that last partwas untrue. The time of great magic was returning, when sorcerers could sit as equal to nobles would come and in her time as priestess and relic keeper Lysa would face choises much more difficult than the one which she witnessed this day.

1105 Words
 
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I was thinking more in the line of that we're not spending all our time in a library reading. The stuff we do might be work oriented, but it'll be a good bit more interesting I'd think. We're also going to spend more time in the training yard, which Arya would like.

We're going to still be doing plenty of work in the library, and also simply not in Winterfell. We've more important places to be, like the North and visiting the nobles.

I don't think Arya would dislike Dany just because she's more on the feminine side. Most of the other women who are of that archetype try to force her to adhere to it, and Dany should know enough from learning our Name that doing so as well would not be the best approach. She'd likely encourage Arya to pursue her own interests, but might make a few suggestions.

The problem is that it's much more important for Daenerys to charm Catelyn, and encouraging Arya will make that harder.

Also, the whole "has magic" thing would probably appeal to Arya.

Remember that magic is not popular in Westeros. It's considered something to hate and fear.

1. Any ideas on how we go about determining who to distribute the land to? There are a lot of peasants in Pentos, so we'd have to pick based on some criteria. Not saying it's not doable, but waiting till the OP arrives and channelers are evidence may not work well and getting the land distributed means we don't have to manage it ourselves.

Even the Romans could have managed land reform, even though the elite eventually managed to subvert it. Here though, we're already planning to decapitate the equivilent of the optimates.

2. To be clear, I wasn't saying they'd be ruling from afar and be absentee. The families getting land would establish branch families there, who would move in and build their keeps or what have you. However, I do see your point in that doing something different might be better.

Do we have any precedent of anything like this ever being done in Westeros?

3. What you propose might be ideal for Harlon, but you're forgetting the political situation at home. It's a radical departure from how things are done in Westeros, and while I think we can get away with some changes due to Pentos being different we can't get away with doing things too differently.

Everything in Essos is a radical departure to how things are done in Westeros. It's also very far away so most of the nobility will know little about what we're doing, and not expect to, unless we invite them in.

Consider that wars in Westeros leave the nobility intact. Despite the wars being fought, nobles from one kingdom almost never actually take land somewhere else unless the entire family moves. What you're proposing is much more radical than what I am in terms of precedent.

There's also the fact that it would probably be expected we'd give lands out to our loyal vassals. However, like I said we can probably get away with a somewhat different system just due to the fact that Pentos is different from Westeros and has handled things differently for a long time. A hybrid system might not be amiss. How about something like this:

He has no vassals of that kind, save Jon. His father does, he doesn't. That's an important difference. I also have no intention of setting a precedent of rewarding people massively for things they didn't do and had zero involvement in. We're already giving them more than enough by having them foster the heirs to the new Magisters.

A) We take half the land and do what you suggest with it. Find noteworthy non-nobles and distribute the land among them to establish a rural middle class. Doing this to establish loyalty with the locals would probably be acceptable to the nobility.

That's just going to create another nobility in all but name. The point is to distribute it to the form to produce relatively small farms. We want a large yeoman class. Basically I want to introduce the Lex Sempronia agraria.

B) We take the rest of the land (keeping a bit for the Prince) and distribute it to various houses in the North who can establish branch families in Pentos. Amount of land given will vary based on the prominence of the family. However, we set up the law so that land management differs from how it's done in Westeros. Instead of having serfs who rent the land and give a portion of their crop or sales of their crops over as tax, they would manage the land and employ paid laborers to work it and are responsible for selling the fruits of their lands directly to make their money, though still paying a tax to the Prince directly. Land can also be bought and sold much more freely than it normally is in Westeros. I think this might get them into a more mercantile mindset, rather than a feudal one, which I think meets what you're aiming for. However, they still hold the status of nobility, which confers status, prestige, and possibly a few benefits.

This will just cause serious problems. We actively don't want to introduce a new layer of feudal nobility into the country. It will just make our life harder in future.

C) Pentos's military is centralized, like it probably is in the rest of the Free Cities, though the nobility are expected to have a tradition of martial (and perhaps later civil) service and have some of their sons serve as officers. All Shards of Pentos, excepting any brought over by the nobles moving in or already owned like the Mormont Shards, are owned by the Prince. (we'll inevitably get more Shards for this in time)

That's fine. I don't think there should be any nobility beyond the merchant houses of the Forty Families.

The Prince gives worthy nobles in Pentos the honor of bearing Shards for him in defense of Pentos and the realm. (for example, Hallis of House Mollen has proven his worth with leal service, to set the precedent) Maybe give such people a shiny extra title, like "Sword of Pentos" or something.

I don't think giving them to nobles is sensible. Much better to have a larger group of professional soliders trained as shardbearers that draw shards from a common armoury as and when they're needed, rather than them having individually assigned shards, to minimise the amount of ownership they think they'll have. It's also important that they're all loyal Pentosi rather than being Northerners.

Just to note, it should also be kept in mind that we're not seizing all the rural land in Pentos. Some will be owned by non-magisters.

Yes. And that's fine. The Magisters will still currently own a huge amount though.
 
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Is this actually true? It seems much more like they just don't believe in it. Magic is extremely uncommon and unknown in Westeros, not feared and hated.

The best example are Wargs, who, as Haggon says "The free folk fear skinchangers, but they honour us as well. South of the Wall, the kneelers hunt us down and butcher us like pigs."

Bloodraven was also hated and feared as a sorcerer when he was hands, and accusations of sorcery are used to discredit and slander people.
 
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Given that there's a Tyrion interlude tonight, I just thought I'd mention a (very) wild theory I'd seen that might work a lot better here.

In the Battle of Blackwater, Tyrion kicks some serious ass, despite being a dwarf, and he mentions that time seems to slow down around him, which enables him to perform better, and that this is something that Jamie has described to him. Notably, this isn't his first battle, so if it was just an adrenaline rush he should have experienced it before.

That makes me wonder if, in the context of this quest, it's possible that the Lannisters might have an inherent talent for Time Manipulation, as Targaryens do for Observation.

Bloodraven also checked off every box on the hatred/fear list. Bastard, albino, kinslayer, and ruthless chancellor. Sorcery was just icing on the cake of loathing.

That's true, but it's also possibly part of the reason why sorcerers are so hated.
 
The best example are Wargs, who, as Haggon says "The free folk fear skinchangers, but they honour us as well. South of the Wall, the kneelers hunt us down and butcher us like pigs."

This is a wildling talking about the people of Westeros, right? They don't need to be a skin-changer to be hunted down, they just need to be wildlings south of the wall. Also, how would he know what happens to skin-changers in Westeros, considering he is a wildling north of the wall? Plus, I would never really trust a wildling to say something accurate about Westeros, and vice-versa.

I don't think we've seen anything to suggest that magic is well known enough to be hated. I'm sure if you started talking about it, people would look at you like you're mad, but not out of fear or hatred, just disbelief. If someone irrevocably proved magic existed, then they would probably react similar to Harlon, and try to find out as much as possible, barring any religious fanatics or superstitious peasants.
 
The problem is that it's much more important for Daenerys to charm Catelyn, and encouraging Arya will make that harder.

What about Acting, then? It's artsy, but I could see Arya going for it, especially if we want to encourage her to go for a manipulative rogue build, and I think Harlon could convince her there's value in it.

Remember that magic is not popular in Westeros. It's considered something to hate and fear.

First off, I think that applies more to blood magic than others do. (though much is still met with superstition, of course) Second, I don't think Arya would give two fucks that other people are scared of it. Hell, that'd probably make it more shiny given her rebellious streak. Besides, the fear isn't universal anyways. Remember Jon and Robb's reactions? They were both pretty eager to learn, and Robb still wants to learn the whole Possession trick. Leader of the Pack is in play. If Alpha Sibling Harlon wants one of his siblings to learn magic, they're going to be inclined to agree to it.


Everything in Essos is a radical departure to how things are done in Westeros. It's also very far away so most of the nobility will know little about what we're doing, and not expect to, unless we invite them in.

Consider that wars in Westeros leave the nobility intact. Despite the wars being fought, nobles from one kingdom almost never actually take land somewhere else unless the entire family moves. What you're proposing is much more radical than what I am in terms of precedent.


He has no vassals of that kind, save Jon. His father does, he doesn't. That's an important difference. I also have no intention of setting a precedent of rewarding people massively for things they didn't do and had zero involvement in. We're already giving them more than enough by having them foster the heirs to the new Magisters.


That's just going to create another nobility in all but name. The point is to distribute it to the form to produce relatively small farms. We want a large yeoman class. Basically I want to introduce the Lex Sempronia agraria.


This will just cause serious problems. We actively don't want to introduce a new layer of feudal nobility into the country. It will just make our life harder in future.

Fair enough, though we may still want to give some land to Hallis and company as reward. (it can be managed by someone we hire for that purpose in their absence until such time they are able to claim it)


That's fine. I don't think there should be any nobility beyond the merchant houses of the Forty Families.

Won't work that way. Since we're bringing Pentos under Westerosi law we'd be expected to accept the noble status of any noble who comes there. The fact that we're managing land differently (can be readily bought and sold) also means that any branch family can come and set up shop, even if the actual land management laws are different and they can't just establish having a bunch of serfs like they do in Westeros. Hell, any hedge knight can come and do this and we'd be expected to recognize their status as a knight.

I don't think giving them to nobles is sensible. Much better to have a larger group of professional soliders trained as shardbearers that draw shards from a common armoury as and when they're needed, rather than them having individually assigned shards, to minimise the amount of ownership they think they'll have. It's also important that they're all loyal Pentosi rather than being Northerners.

Unfortunately Shards having to be bound to a bearer mean they can't just be put in a common armory like that, especially for Shardplate. A single person would be assigned the Shards for extended periods of time, generally on the order of years, because regular transferring them gives you regular periods of relative vulnerability. Shardblades are also a specialty weapon that requires specialized training, but you could train more than one person in that so you've got backups at least.


Now, this talk of the land we have in Pentos has given me an idea. We have a problem due to Theon's death, in that Balon is likely to start raiding us because of it and that Ned will feel honor bound to return the Shards taken during Balon's rebellion. Obviously we want to avoid both of those things, and we could probably convince Ned that returning the Shards would just be giving Balon a dagger to stab us in the back with and that honor can be satisfied with a weregild. A normal weregild isn't likely to satisfy Balon, even if its generous - he'll think we're treating him like a whore, paying the gold price.

That's where the land comes in. We're going to offer Baelor trade concessions as a perpetual weregild to make up for Leyton's death. So, let's make up a little fiction. Let's say that before he was killed, Theon managed to steal a dagger from one of the captors and kill him. (hell, this could even be true) As such, we can say he helped us conquer Pentos, and that we believe he paid the iron price for a piece of it. We find a nice piece of land that generates a good profit due to whatever it produces, and legally it becomes Balon's to pass down to his children when he dies. Now, obviously he's far away, so we'll have someone manage it for him if he doesn't care to do so himself, and hell, maybe the Prince of Pentos will forever buy the fruits of that land at market value (or even a bit higher than that, and then sold back into the market for a slight loss) forever guaranteeing profit. The money goes into the Greyjoy coffers in perpetuity, acting as a perpetual weregild. Honor is met, so Ned is happy.

Now, since these lands are in Pentos, we can seize them any time we want. They act as our new hostage. If the ironborn raid us, well, we can just take the land back, and if the land generates enough income that it's profitable enough that raiding villages on the shores of the North doesn't compare, then it just doesn't make much sense to do so. They'll just continue raiding elsewhere. If Euron shows up and takes of the Iron Islands, we can just tell him to fuck off, that land belongs to Asha Greyjoy (and if he's killed her we can just say he's a kinslayer and doesn't deserve it - totally believable considering its Euron) and he won't see a single copper. (she'll oppose him, unless something radical changes, so we'd be funding her opposition of him)

Given that there's a Tyrion interlude tonight, I just thought I'd mention a (very) wild theory I'd seen that might work a lot better here.

In the Battle of Blackwater, Tyrion kicks some serious ass, despite being a dwarf, and he mentions that time seems to slow down around him, which enables him to perform better, and that this is something that Jamie has described to him. Notably, this isn't his first battle, so if it was just an adrenaline rush he should have experienced it before.

That makes me wonder if, in the context of this quest, it's possible that the Lannisters might have an inherent talent for Time Manipulation, as Targaryens do for Observation.

You know, I bet they have it now since you've so kindly reminded the GM of this tidbit and have given him the idea. And you say you don't want to strengthen our enemies. :p
 
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This is a wildling talking about the people of Westeros, right? They don't need to be a skin-changer to be hunted down, they just need to be wildlings south of the wall. Also, how would he know what happens to skin-changers in Westeros, considering he is a wildling north of the wall? Plus, I would never really trust a wildling to say something accurate about Westeros, and vice-versa.

It's specifically about Wargs.

I don't think we've seen anything to suggest that magic is well known enough to be hated. I'm sure if you started talking about it, people would look at you like you're mad, but not out of fear or hatred, just disbelief. If someone irrevocably proved magic existed, then they would probably react similar to Harlon, and try to find out as much as possible, barring any religious fanatics or superstitious peasants.

I don't have the exact quotes, but this is the collected list of information about Wargs from the books. Note now it has Wargs also being known as demons and always being evil in popular mythology.

There are some other interesting facts on the list as well, such as Skinchangers being able to simultaneously see throught their beasts skins and their own, long range communication via warg dreams, and being able to sense animals of the same type as their bonded creatures.

What about Acting, then? It's artsy, but I could see Arya going for it, especially if we want to encourage her to go for a manipulative rogue build, and I think Harlon could convince her there's value in it.

Why would we want to encourage Arya to do that? She's a noblewoman who will hopefully develop magical talents. Unless go to total shit for the Starks as they do in canon, then she should never need those skills.

First off, I think that applies more to blood magic than others do. (though much is still met with superstition, of course) Second, I don't think Arya would give two fucks that other people are scared of it. Hell, that'd probably make it more shiny given her rebellious streak. Besides, the fear isn't universal anyways. Remember Jon and Robb's reactions? They were both pretty eager to learn, and Robb still wants to learn the whole Possession trick. Leader of the Pack is in play. If Alpha Sibling Harlon wants one of his siblings to learn magic, they're going to be inclined to agree to it.

Warging is specifically hated. The Starks history contains notable instances of them exterminating enemy skinchangers, such as the Warg King.

Fair enough, though we may still want to give some land to Hallis and company as reward. (it can be managed by someone we hire for that purpose in their absence until such time they are able to claim it)

Why would we do that?

Won't work that way. Since we're bringing Pentos under Westerosi law we'd be expected to accept the noble status of any noble who comes there. The fact that we're managing land differently (can be readily bought and sold) also means that any branch family can come and set up shop, even if the actual land management laws are different and they can't just establish having a bunch of serfs like they do in Westeros. Hell, any hedge knight can come and do this and we'd be expected to recognize their status as a knight.

There's pretty much no such thing as Westerosi law. Each Kingdom has their own set, although there are commonalities. Dorne is the most divergent, but Aegon specifically didn't unify the legal code and left each kingdom with their own. We'd just be doing exactly the same, and keeping Pentosi law largely intact, save for our specific reforms.

We'd of course recognise people's titles, but it would have no legal significance.

Unfortunately Shards having to be bound to a bearer mean they can't just be put in a common armory like that, especially for Shardplate. A single person would be assigned the Shards for extended periods of time, generally on the order of years, because regular transferring them gives you regular periods of relative vulnerability. Shardblades are also a specialty weapon that requires specialized training, but you could train more than one person in that so you've got backups at least.

Robb demonstrates that attuning with Shardplate you've worn before takes single digit hours, so what I propose is quite possible. Weekly or monthly cycles would make lots more sense than year long assignments. You could have people draw lots at the end of a week for whether it's their turn to switch.

Now, this talk of the land we have in Pentos has given me an idea. We have a problem due to Theon's death, in that Balon is likely to start raiding us because of it and that Ned will feel honor bound to return the Shards taken during Balon's rebellion. Obviously we want to avoid both of those things, and we could probably convince Ned that returning the Shards would just be giving Balon a dagger to stab us in the back with and that honor can be satisfied with a weregild. A normal weregild isn't likely to satisfy Balon, even if its generous - he'll think we're treating him like a whore, paying the gold price.

That's where the land comes in. We're going to offer Baelor trade concessions as a perpetual weregild to make up for Leyton's death. So, let's make up a little fiction. Let's say that before he was killed, Theon managed to steal a dagger from one of the captors and kill him. (hell, this could even be true) As such, we can say he helped us conquer Pentos, and that we believe he paid the iron price for a piece of it. We find a nice piece of land that generates a good profit due to whatever it produces, and legally it becomes Balon's to pass down to his children when he dies. Now, obviously he's far away, so we'll have someone manage it for him if he doesn't care to do so himself, and hell, maybe the Prince of Pentos will forever buy the fruits of that land at market value (or even a bit higher than that, and then sold back into the market for a slight loss) forever guaranteeing profit. The money goes into the Greyjoy coffers in perpetuity, acting as a perpetual weregild. Honor is met, so Ned is happy.

Now, since these lands are in Pentos, we can seize them any time we want. They act as our new hostage. If the ironborn raid us, well, we can just take the land back, and if the land generates enough income that it's profitable enough that raiding villages on the shores of the North doesn't compare, then it just doesn't make much sense to do so. They'll just continue raiding elsewhere. If Euron shows up and takes of the Iron Islands, we can just tell him to fuck off, that land belongs to Asha Greyjoy (and if he's killed her we can just say he's a kinslayer and doesn't deserve it - totally believable considering its Euron) and he won't see a single copper. (she'll oppose him, unless something radical changes, so we'd be funding her opposition of him)

Their House words are We do not sow, and Balon lives up to that. He pretty much doesn't in the value of things he doesn't steal. I don't think the Iron Price includes things given to you after you die, it's what you take from your enemies' cold dead hands, not what is placed into yours.

Otherwise known as no, hell no. I'd prefer we tell Balon that his son died like a true Ironborn (such as his father) lives, on his knees with something down his throat, and then go on to tell him that if he tries anything the same will happen to him, than do this.

Now's one of the best times we're going to get for the inevitable war with the Ironborn.

You know, I bet they have it now since you've so kindly reminded the GM of this tidbit and have given him the idea. And you say you don't want to strengthen our enemies. :p

I wouldn't underestimate the chance that Mazrick's been through the books and looked for a genetic magical talent to give each of the Houses, and that's the one that stands out for the Lannisters. It's also one of the first things that jumps out when you search for Lannister magic
 
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It's specifically about Wargs.

Yes, said by a wildling. A wildling talking about what the Westerosi people do to skin changers.

First of all, how the hell would he know? He is a person who does not live in Westeros and would be executed on sight in Westeros. He can talk about Wargs and what happens to them in Westeros all he likes, doesn't mean he knows more than shit all about it.

Second, the wildlings hate and look down upon everyone south of the wall. They can and will take every opportunity to shit on the Westerosi people and their traditions, even if it's not true. You can't really take a statement about anything in Westeros as truth when said by a wildling.
 
You know, talking about magic and bloodlines, I'm hoping that none of Harlon's children with Daenerys don't come out as stillborn dragon-hybrids like Rhaego did, with scales, wings, and a tail. We'd probably need some serious magic to keep them alive, and then there'd be some real political trouble involved. It's not the first time it's happened for Targaryens, and we know that the Valyrians experimented with human/animal hybridisation...

Yes, said by a wildling. A wildling talking about what the Westerosi people do to skin changers.

First of all, how the hell would he know? He is a person who does not live in Westeros and would be executed on sight in Westeros. He can talk about Wargs and what happens to them in Westeros all he likes, doesn't mean he knows more than shit all about it.

Second, the wildlings hate and look down upon everyone south of the wall. They can and will take every opportunity to shit on the Westerosi people and their traditions, even if it's not true. You can't really take a statement about anything in Westeros as truth when said by a wildling.

The parts about wargs being also known as demons and always being evil in the mythology are from people south of the wall though.
 
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You know, talking about magic and bloodlines, I'm hoping that none of Harlon's children with Daenerys don't come out as stillborn dragon-hybrids like Rhaego did, with scales, wings, and a tail. We'd probably need some serious magic to keep them alive, and then there'd be some real political trouble involved. It's not the first time it's happened for Targaryens, and we know that the Valyrians experimented with human/animal hybridisation...

Don't worry. If the previous theory brought up in this quest about Starks being part-Other is true, then I am sure the two will just cancel each other out.

And if not, the human species is overrated anyway.
 
Why would we want to encourage Arya to do that? She's a noblewoman who will hopefully develop magical talents. Unless go to total shit for the Starks as they do in canon, then she should never need those skills.

Because encouraging her to be feminine isn't going to work, and we know OOC that she's got the talent for it.

Warging is specifically hated. The Starks history contains notable instances of them exterminating enemy skinchangers, such as the Warg King.

Well of course they targeted enemy wargs. Denying the enemy strategic resources is a basic tenet of warfare. Do you think we're not going to specifically target enemy mages for elimination just because we are one? Do you have any instances of the Starks eliminating their own wargs?

Why would we do that?

Because rewarding your followers for exceptional service makes sense? Also, it might be sensible to establish at least some nobility outside of the forty families whose loyalty is questionable.

Robb demonstrates that attuning with Shardplate you've worn before takes single digit hours, so what I propose is quite possible. Weekly or monthly cycles would make lots more sense than year long assignments. You could have people draw lots at the end of a week for whether it's their turn to switch.

Given the title of Shardbearer means a great deal in Essos, I could see this being considered as something not very positive. It could go either way in terms of perception, but it's still a risk.

Also, in a world where decapitation strikes by gateway are a thing do you really want to have regularly scheduled times when your are down a full Shardbearer that your enemies can take advantage of?

Their House words are We do not sow, and Balon lives up to that. He pretty much doesn't in the value of things he doesn't steal. I don't think the Iron Price includes things given to you after you die, it's what you take from your enemies' cold dead hands, not what is placed into yours.

They clearly believe in the notion of inheritance, and I imagine that if men die when reaving their families get at least some of the loot. The important thing here is that we took over Pentos by FORCE OF ARMS. We killed our enemies and took their land, their gold, and their shinies. That seems pretty fucking iron price to me. One enemy was specifically Illyrio Mopatis, and we're taking everything that fucker owned that we can get our grubby little mits on, including his lands. Theon was involved in that, and if we claim he was involved in combat we can say he paid the iron price for his share.


Otherwise known as no, hell no. I'd prefer we tell Balon that his son died like a true Ironborn (such as his father) lives, on his knees with something down his throat, and then go on to tell him that if he tries anything the same will happen to him, than do this.

Yeah, good luck with that, because its not happening. Ned will make us give him a set of Shards or a very large weregild (giving him a good warchest to use against us) since we can now afford it. Because his honor would demand it, like Mazrick told us, and Ned it NOT going to be talked down from ensuring honor is met in some form or fashion. Neither option will stop Balon from targeting us eventually. The point of this idea is that we'd giving Balon something significant enough that Ned's sense of honor is satisfied, but that we can also then later deny him if he attacks us anyways. It either works and means we have one less enemy to deal with for a while (and a possible future ally/tool in the form of Asha Greyjoy against the far greater threat of Euron Grejoy, possible Champion of the Dark One) or it doesn't and we effectively give Balon nothing just like you'd prefer.

Now's one of the best times we're going to get for the inevitable war with the Ironborn.

Why is now the best time? Aren't we going to be really fucking busy dealing with other crap by your own admission? The wildlings are gathering, the Others are coming, war with the Lannisters is probably still on the horizon, the North's navies are likely to take quite a few more months to complete and wouldn't be as experienced as the ironborn at sea anyways, and oh let's not forget the Red Demon and his slaves that we declared war against. Robert might be able to swing us some support, but with the war in the South that's not all that likely - he'd probably just expect us to perform another miracle like we did in Pentos. If you ask me another conflict is the last thing we need. Sure, we need to prepare for it, but if we can stop it that would be preferable.

Also, what does war with the Iron Islands actually get us? The Iron Islands are practically worthless - they are the smallest and poorest region of the Seven Kingdoms. It's the entire reason they have a raiding culture to begin with. We'd gain two sets of Shards at most and perhaps a few magical artifacts if we're lucky, but not without great cost in terms of money and manpower, and the territory gained would be a drain on us economically since only reaving makes them viable.

And also what makes you think Balon won't bide his time and wait to strike at us when we're perceived to be vulnerable? Harlon is not the only one who foresees Westeros inevitably fracturing.


I wouldn't underestimate the chance that Mazrick's been through the books and looked for a genetic magical talent to give each of the Houses, and that's the one that stands out for the Lannisters. It's also one of the first things that jumps out when you search for Lannister magic

Sure, but now it's certain. Why don't you just see if you can get them a forsaken via omake while you're at it. Jerk. :p
 
They clearly believe in the notion of inheritance, and I imagine that if men die when reaving their families get at least some of the loot. The important thing here is that we took over Pentos by FORCE OF ARMS. We killed our enemies and took their land, their gold, and their shinies. That seems pretty fucking iron price to me. One enemy was specifically Illyrio Mopatis, and we're taking everything that fucker owned that we can get our grubby little mits on, including his lands. Theon was involved in that, and if we claim he was involved in combat we can say he paid the iron price for his share.
Fine. Why are we giving Balon a damn thing? What are you trying to accomplish? What is it supposed to prevent?


Sure, but now it's certain. Why don't you just see if you can get them a forsaken via omake while you're at it. Jerk. :p
We had an opportunity to ensure he didn't know any Time Magic regardless of affinity for it as of this moment, we already threw that away to the whims of Mazrick/the Dice Gods and made him Favored to boot.

Might as well just give him one of everything. :p
 
Fine. Why are we giving Balon a damn thing? What are you trying to accomplish? What is it supposed to prevent?

As I've been saying repeatedly, THIS:

Yeah, pretty much. Though with Theon dead, Ned may feel honor bound to return the Shards to the Greyjoys.

Because Theon, the hostage, died while under Ned's watch even though Balon had kept to his end of the surrender deal, Ned will feel that honor requires he compensate the Greyjoys somehow. And you know how Ned is about his honor. One possible way that he would compensate them is by returning the set of Shards he took from them due to quashing their rebellion. The other likely way is a weregild, which given that's gold price isn't likely to satisfy Balon.

So we have three options for what to give Balon to satisfy Ned's honor:
1. Shards that Balon will certainly turn against us.
2. A very large amount of gold that Balon will use to fund a war against us.
3. Land in Pentos (whose profits will slowly yet perpetually fill his coffers) that his last son will go down in history as having died paying the iron price for rather than dying on his knees like a helpless lamb being slaughtered.

The first two can be very easily and quickly be used against us and aren't likely to be taken back except by a costly invasion of the Iron Islands. The third generates wealth for him very slowly and as such can't be used against us for a VERY long time, and we can take the land away if he decides he wants war with us and starts raiding, and so may just prevent a costly war that we really don't need.
 
Or we tell Ned we aren't handing Shards to someone who will use them against. When he brings up his honor, point out he is also honor bound to look out for the smallfolk, and the deaths from Balon Greyjoy having those Shards would be on his head. And make no mistake, Balon Greyjoy isn't going to remain idle. The bottom half of Westeros is already at war, and the North is being invaded by wildlings. Hell, think of how many Northern lives will be saved by an addition set of Shards stabilizing the chaotic situation.

tl;dr - "Stop being a retard dad, and hey look, responsibilities we need to be taking care of instead of talking about this!"


Pretty sure that is as likely to be accepted as, "Hey Balon, your son died like a manly man, here is some land literally half the world away." Ned isn't an idiot either. Theon was a hostage, not an honored ward.
 
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Or we tell Ned we aren't handing Shards to someone who will use them against.

At which point Ned slaps Harlon upside the head for his foolish insolence. He owns the Shards in question, not Harlon. You seem to be forgetting that his is our LORD father. We can't tell him what to do. Advise? Yes. Tell? No.

When he brings up his honor, point out he is also honor bound to look out for the smallfolk, and the deaths from Balon Greyjoy having those Shards would be on his head.

Yes, and I fully intend to argue that to him and haven't said otherwise. However, he'll still feel honor bound to give Balon compensation, which means a weregild of some kind becomes the next best alternative. The weregild for a Lord Paramount's last son and heir is not going to be small. Normally a weregild is a lump sum of money but that could be used against us. Some land in Pentos that generates money perpetually is also acceptable as payment though, and if his son apparently paid the iron price for it then it might actually satisfy Balon's pride even if it takes Theon's place as our hostage.

And make no mistake, Balon Greyjoy isn't going to remain idle. The bottom half of Westeros is already at war, and the North is being invaded by wildlings. Hell, think of how many Northern lives will be saved by an addition set of Shards stabilizing the chaotic situation.

I realize this. Again, the point of this idea of giving him some land that generates money over time instead of a lump sum is that it A) satisfies Ned's honor and B) makes reaving somewhere that isn't the North more attractive (aren't the Westerlands lovely this time of year?) because C) we can take it back if he decides he would still like to go reaving in the North. If it doesn't work we effectively lose nothing due to Ned's stubborn sense of honor and deal with the ironborn like we've been having to plan to do anyways, and if it does work we make the Iron Islands someone else's problem for a while a cost that is effectively a pittance. It's win-win either way.

tl;dr - "Stop being a retard dad, and hey look, responsibilities we need to be taking care of instead of talking about this!"

Again, Ned is not going to drop his honor. There is no convincing him out of it. Even if you expended a TP you wouldn't be able to make an argument convincing him not to satisfy his honor in regards to Theon's death in some form or fashion.
 
Perhaps Balon might be more willing to accept if we make sure that the land is on the ocean, so he could use it as a base for his reaving? (This does have a few rather obvious downsides, though... Maybe we could point him at slavers?)
 
Perhaps Balon might be more willing to accept if we make sure that the land is on the ocean, so he could use it as a base for his reaving? (This does have a few rather obvious downsides, though... Maybe we could point him at slavers?)

You expect Balon Greyjoy a fanatic, a madman and a fool to accept limits on his people's favorite, divinely mandated pastime?

On the whole convincing Ned to keep Theon's Shards. Not going to happen Ned's an idiot and we can't force him.
 
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