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Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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So, I got thinking about specialist garrison frigates again.

We are shifting towards theater level deployment after all, so they might be viable now.

Last time they were not due to unplanned response concerns as they had very high D to double as scouts and skirmishers, theater fleets did not allow multiple response, and, if I remember correctly, insufficient number of events to make them worthwhile compared to generalists (or event Kepler-G "generalists")

For the former, if after the changes fast frigates with minimum 4SP remain a liability, then, well, we have bigger problem in the Comet. For the latter, Federalization, and various techs that increase event rate being completed soon.

HF Sensors, Intel Ops. Note, this ship is not meant to be the best Scout we can make (which could be S14 it looks like), but an economical mass producible Explorer grade S responder. Basically a more powerful and cheaper ship than Kepler, but that can respond to only half the kind of events that Kepler can. If Keplers are viable in such huge numbers (we have/are building 30 of them and plan to build more Kepler-Gs), It seems to me that these should be too, if in likely much smaller numbers.

Can have +1C for +5sr +0.5sp

Blanking on a name. A cheap P boat and that's about it. No capabilities because it doesn't need any, except for maybe Intel Ops depending on what exactly it turns out to be (data analysis? Spec ops? Espionage? All of them?).

If there is a near guaranteed number of S events per theater, staffing them with that number of Oracles would give us almost C-B cheap (except for BR) Amby grade stats. Same for P and the unnamed P boat. Even if there are not enough of those to justify a new class, Oracles would also be scouts, and P-F would be useful for TFs or FDS tags.
 
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Alliterate said:
Okay then :) a C5 S4 H3 L5 P4 E5 R12 24% Evasion Comet.
Minesweeping/Anti-cloak. Lots of sensors. The +1E over both the S5 and previous R11 version is an incidental bonus.

No dedicated away teams and it does use an unconventional SIF choice. This would represent us conceiving of the Comet as "fastest fighting ship in the Quadrant" with the Evasion (and minesweeping sensors) for Skirmish and C5 for Vanguard (perhaps matching the Rennie).
I think Evasion is doubled in Skirmish phase, compounding the edge there, and I guess the E5 allows longer independent (responding and... raiding?) operations.
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I had got the tech levels a little wrong there, that happens to me when moving parts around.
This one had the nice consultancy from the Magen Chalal affiliates on damage control best practise.
Explorer-grade Communications Array for relaying all that very detailed sensor scan data (and to keep up with the long-range speed outdistancing SF comms bouys)?

It's basically weapons, engines, sensors, the comms array, and a skilled tactical/damage control crew to keep the assemblage of high-technology sensors operating in battle and in the adverse environments allowed by the sophisticated adaptive life support.

Very much a story of making the most capable fast response ship, in itself, in its spaceborne environment. Powerful sensors to detect trouble early and the speed and ability to respond anywhere, fast.

(VS if you look at Swbs S5 version- extensive sickbays, large shuttlebay to carry the dedicated away teams or Peacekeepers cooling their boots, a cadre of specialist Science boffins... that's a much more generalist 'Any Random Starfleet Ship' pattern deploying the same tools you could expect to see from any hull Starfleet operates. Tells a very different ship-development story.)
 
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A bit of fun, or "Should there be a parts limit on Holosuites? Discuss."

Prepare to face the full combat power of our holoemitters, Singer!
I think we should have T4 Holosuites before the end of the decade.
 
@Enerael on the topic of 2328 P-boats, I've been working on this one for a while...



I imagine that there's an extensive holo emitter network all across the ship, channeling a replicator network in order to generate diplomatic facilities or science labs to work on a per-mission basis. Also uses the computing power coming with all the holosuites to do predictive combat simulations to help in fights.

But GMs have expressed a distaste and it seems holosuites will be limited soon. So a more realistic take on a P boat is the following:



1/1/1 crew, 0.5 SP, 55 SR, and only 900kt! A little vulnerable, but has decent enough E and R for its size.
 
AntiSanity said:
@Enerael on the topic of 2328 P-boats, I've been working on this one for a while...
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P6, so FDS tag specialist right? Seems far too expensive for that, under current rules such a ship wouldn't need any other stats.

Note, I expect changes to the FDS tag system to, at the very least, make Envoys viable for them, so P6 specialists might or might not remain viable.
 
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Peacekeeping. A perfectly flat generalist frigate, meant for the Magel Chalal. Ended up so full of sixes somehow (stats, SR cost, combined crew cost) that I really don't want it anywhere near the Eye of Chaos.

Peacekeeping. F6 seemed rather badly optimized due to the need for perfect flatness. So I made the best large generalist frigate I could to compare it with and see how much, and, well, the only significant benefit is pretty much the -1O. And MCh have looots of crew. Turns out that F6 is far more viable than I thought, and perfectly flat ships in general might be too.

Peacekeeping. Like F6, only smaller, cheaper, but weaker, and far less likely to summon demons. Also fits into 750kt berths which MCh have 4 of compared to their 2x1mt, so they are much more likely to build this one I think.


Peacekeeping, Intel Ops, Hospital. Added the last one for the stats, not capability, but it's certainly welcome. Like F6 or F5, a perfectly flat cruiser. The smallest reasonable one that I could manage actually, thought with some more work I might be able to figure something out. Note the lack of Replicators. Once more felt badly optimized, and yet:

Peacekeeping, Intel Ops. Same as F~6 to F6, meant to be a comparable ship (HC, Armored Hull) to HC10 without the need to maintain perfect flatness. Shows that HC10 is actually pretty well optimized, if you are willing to spend a bit more crew (which MCh are). I don't know their BR/SR ratio, but if it's anything near ours 180br/140sr shouldn't cause any problems.


Peacekeeping, Intel Ops, you know the drill, all generalists as big as an HC or larger that I design have both unless stated otherwise. Note the lack of Replicators. A step up once more. And, once more, for comparison:

-10br +2E, -1En, -1sp, a noticeable if not a huge difference. A well optimized economical LE I think. Has one more slot to fill, but thresholds were already met. Could add +1S for +10br with Small Long Range I suppose, but that seems rather wasteful.

Then, I remembered and old project of mine, an LE meant to spend as much SR as remotely reasonable. Ended up with 13 flat. Which got me thinking, could I manage a (SR expensive) LE13?

Yes. Yes I could.
And for much less SR than I thought. +1 to all stats and +HF Sensors for +20sr and +1/1/1 over the LE12. Looks like a good option for Starfleet actually.

This is when I thought to check how many 2mt berths MCh have. It's none. Not a one. They do have 2x2.5mt though, and as such:
3mt and 15 everything. Note, not FYM capable. Now if only MCh had some some 1.5mt berths, because a F5 HC10 E15 lineup would perfect.


Edit: Messed up SIF Tiers on E15 somehow.

Also, forgot to mention that E~15 has +1SER.
 
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Steven Kodaly said:
They could lay down another 2.5mt slipway instead. Have two for construction with the third available for maintenance and refits (and redundant machine tooling).
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2.5mt berths are overkill for cruisers. If you plan to build HCs in the future, better future proof with 2mt, but if not 1.5mt is quite enough.

1mt is seriously not enough for modern cruisers anymore. Hm, if they have low SP income, they might want to expand them into 1.5mt and stick to 900kt frigates perhaps...
 
Alliterate said:
This one had the nice consultancy from the Magen Chalal affiliates on damage control best practise.
Explorer-grade Communications Array for relaying all that very detailed sensor scan data (and to keep up with the long-range speed outdistancing SF comms bouys)?

It's basically weapons, engines, sensors, the comms array, and a skilled tactical/damage control crew to keep the assemblage of high-technology sensors operating in battle and in the adverse environments allowed by the sophisticated adaptive life support.

Very much a story of making the most capable fast response ship, in itself, in its spaceborne environment. Powerful sensors to detect trouble early and the speed and ability to respond anywhere, fast.
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Just giving my opinion in passing, this Comet version makes a lot of sense IMHO doctrine-wise, well, narratively speaking at least. It goes somewhere fast, identifies problems with a good sensor suite and has the capacity to call in reinforcements. A raiding party? Call in other Comets. An S problem? call a Kepler. Need more oompf? call an explorer. And while the slower second responder(s) come, she has the capacity to feed them high quality sensor data. Rather than an all-around first responder to a lot of problems, it's a good fast identifier of problems and I can see lot of stories where the damcon crew become heroes of logs where Comets go headfirst into dangers and anomalies and survive them with the power of science and the dedication of damcon engineers or where the heroic crew of a doomed Comet keeps in contact with the rest of Starfleet until the end.

This version seems to fit really well in the whole Starfleet ecosystem and narrative and would be all around a cool element in stories. A ballsy speed demon.
 
Made some upgrades! Somehow.
-20br -10sr +1O -1T compared to the above LE12, making it -20br -30sr -1En -2T compared to LE13, far more competitive.

-20br


Also took yet another look at the HC.
Hits all the thresholds very well. Too well to get more than +1S from that one free slot. But we don't have to fill our platforms as much as possible, -10br is -10br, one part to add in a refit making it all the better, and we have plenty of SR.

I also have another, more conventional 1.8mt 130sr HC that is +10br -10sr +2E, but I wanted to share this one because it hits thresholds very well and is a much more interesting (if not necessarily better, though it might be) option.

I have HCs from 3/4/4 120sr (P9 though. It can also be 110sr for +1sp) to 3/5/5 140sr and everything in between, but 3/5/4 seems to fit our income the best and SR seems to be nearly no object.
 
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Constellation / -A:
Alliterate said:
All those small frigates are fast (high R) to respond in emergencies, but the poor Endurance (low E) we think makes them less likely to pick up regular events.
Don't worry, Docana the humble Constellation-A has your back!
+1SPR, +4E
20SR refit, less than the 'original' refit was.

Or... with a small Warp Core E4 R5. Would be 5SR cheaper build, except the 10SR rounding even for small Cruisers.

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Appreciated, especially the 2T crew. You can kind of see how they were designed as border workhorses and then patched as the challenges changed.

sunrise said:
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I think I prefer this 50 SR design, these things were often built as a SR budget consideration, especially by the smaller polities. This design would imply a sprint disaster relief role


Rennie / -A / Envoy:
Enerael said:
A 1mt 90sr 2/4/3 Rennie. That 2.5sp is blegh, but if any SF ship class should be torp and SP heavy, it would probably be this one. +1CS 10sr over the legacy one. No chance of a lower SR cost.

Can have -1sp for +10sr +1O by ditching torps for all phasers.

Refit cost is 35br 15sr +1O if the Rennie was the torp variant, 35br 10sr if phaser variant. +7sr refit cost and +10sr newbuild gives -0.5sp.

Edit: Messed up my math, had to edit refit costs. Sorry.

Edit2: Envoy!

Edit3: I need sleep. That Envoy was invalid, I used 2327 tech for it.
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Enerael said:
Hopefully without any mistakes this time. The version that refits from the phaser Rennies costs 35br 11.5sr (no 1O refit cost because the phaser Rennie already has 3O) and replaces primary phasers with T2 phasers and torps disgustingly enough. Not even primary burst torps, no, that would raise newbuild cost by +10sr.
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Alliterate said:
Another 80SR Rennie
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Jenny said:
Rennies (based on Alliterate's 80-sr rennie):
Renaissance (at 85 or 90 SR) & Renaissance-A (at 95 or 100 SR)
Envoy (at 95 or 100 sr):
I personally feel that small cruisers (certainly those less than 1mt, and possibly even 1mt cruisers) should be able to use 5-sr breakpoints; I'm less confident about a 1.2mt cruiser being able to do the same.

There's also this 80-sr rennie:
(reinforced hull still)
Note, however, that it uses a T2 Shuttlebay, which is 2313 tech. "If you must", I could use it, but, well, alas.
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Alliterate said:
Some alternate Rennies.
90SR, C6 L6, fast, Away teams, Anti-cloak, shuttles, sickbays
Trivial to drop to 80SR by swapping two phasers to torpedoes.


80SR, same as above but L5, marginally better Evasion.
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Too many Rennies to review all of them. I will say if you've got a Rennie I want to see the Rennie-A and Envoy from it too, because if I pick a Rennie base on its own then we have to hold another round of refit design. I kind of like Jenny's and Alliterate's 80 SR base designs, how do the -As and the Envoys look from those?



Patrol Cruiser-A
sunrise said:
2 patrol cruisers-A's both following the relative statline of the current design the first has higher cost and stats as most cruisers seem to improve a bit and the patrol cruiser-A is a 1100Kt design in the current builder
This was also the first time i used a shuttlebay on a cruiser someting i plan on doing more in the designs to come.


Next an attempt to match the existing stats with T -1 parts added to represent its age(do not know when the patrol cruiser was designed but that was probably prior the start of the quest)

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Really like the modular version, but since it's a full sized cruiser if I had to choose right now I'd go with the 1200kt P9 beast, since that's almost certainly what the playerbase would have chosen. How would you do on the generic cruiser platform with refit size of 1200kt?



Excelsior / -A:
Enerael said:
Lifted some ideas from Alliterates one. Mine has Intel Ops and phaser only.

Could refit two more parts, but it wouldn't raise anything. A decently cheap refit.
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Interesting to see the max stats, recall though that the Excelsior was designed in an age that was hopeful it would pave the way to repeat Kirk's 5YM but also anticipating more conflict with the Klingons, hence the slight combat slant on the original. That said you pretty much get the extra stats for only 1E and 10 SR. Nice designs.



Alliterate said:
Revised my Excelsior to be legal (remove the Xenopsych, and consequent changes). The base model gets Intel Ops.

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A well thought-out refit, it manages to catch and pass Enerael's design in stats without the new-build cost being higher in any way.



Amby:
Alliterate said:
More gauche double-posting. :V

Ambassador proposal
C10 S12 H9 L11 P12 E15 R12 300BR 240SR O7E9T9 3.5Supply
Hospital, Away Teams, Intel Ops
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(Note: image never quotes properly...)
I appreciate our only Amby proposal and having seen the low-crew requests on Discord I think I prefer this one, as it fits better with the Pacifist deal that was taken on the original design. Will probably need to adjust crew incomes a
 
Extras:

Oberth
ClawClawBite said:
A plausible Oberth (on a Miranda frame):
C1 S5 H1 L1 P1 E2 R3
60 BR 45 SR 1O 1EN 3T 1SP



Less shield, more response, more BR and less SR, but has the low crew but high T effect.
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Nice. Can slash BR a bit with a different (and closer to actual year) platform:

Not possible to get anything near the original's cost balance or parts year, but we can pretend there was some weird BR for SR swap if we have to.

Soyuz:
Godwinson said:
And now for the reconstruction no-one asked for and no-one wanted:
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Ha, interesting.

Bird of Paradise-A:
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Betazoid Diplomatic Technology is the best in the galaxy!



also combat sensors... maybe all the psychics?
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For completeness.
 
I didn't notice it before, but is there a lore problem with having the Excelsior-A with R11 and Ambassador with R12 when the Comet is supposed to be a uniquely faster ship than its predecessors?
 
Derpmind said:
I didn't notice it before, but is there a lore problem with having the Excelsior-A with R11 and Ambassador with R12 when the Comet is supposed to be a uniquely faster ship than its predecessors?
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It is probably like the Constellation - the Explorers have deep pockets and keep cruising for years, while the Comet needs refueling every other month, but will get to the emergency in a flash.
 
Refits on base design is little a chicken-and-egg, one of the reasons you get multiple proposals is lining up the refit options.
But, we've at least got some more parameters, now.
80SR, and lets presume we like Dedicated Away Teams on the Renaissance?

(You can also swap the Tactical sensor for High-Fidelity for C5 L6, but the O2 will cause us major refit crewing headaches with the Rennie-A, which will be O3)

So, assuming then that that is our base, you're looking ballpark 35BR/20SR refit regardless, it's more a question of the new build costs (and annoying 10SR cruiser boundaries).
C7 S6 H5 L7 P4 E3 R9, Away teams and Anti-cloaking sensors
+1CHR +2SL

The 90SR new-builds drop a point here or there:

Of course if you do accept S5 and push the new-build into the 100SR bracket, there's always the option of throwing some more crew at it, too:

Or boosting the response capability with P5 (but loses the +1R)
 
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Envoys
Intel Ops, 10-15SR refit


Or lose the Intel, gain a shipboard hospital? -1S +1P +1ER, +10SR build, 25SR refit

If Hopsitals were T4 as well, it could also have Intel both...

Bonus O7E9T8 Amby, -1P

And a possible Amby-A off that base, +3CSP +4HL +6E +1R
 
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Alternately... Large Warp Cores are pretty nice.
Perfectly viable. The O.G. Rennie was 11 crew (O3 E5 T3) so this isn't miles off... and has away teams. I like this one- for the 80SR it's pretty good, I gotta say.
Away teams, HF anti-cloak sensors.

...but the increased O on a refit would give us some headaches without some pool adjustments:

(This reduces the E crew vs the previous Large Core Rennie-A). 90SR new build, 20SR refit.

Edit- these are unfortunately not valid. Missing the Diplomatic prereq for the Xenopsych specialists. Not the first time I've done that.
.....
Valid:-



Alternate Excelsiors- the 160SR was an attempt to reduce crew and meet the original 160SR costs, this one is also O5E7T6

Excelsior-A
I think 45BR/30SR (ish) refit, the away teams for e.g. could also be upgraded to T1, fictional impact only.
 
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Alliterate said:
RenAs
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When your H and L have .2 or higher decimals and you have a free 1O you can swap Primary SIF for Secondary for a bit of a speed boost.

I believe that RenA should be at least C7 S5 H5 L6 and I would really like P5 though I suppose that its not necessary. C7 because Vanguard Cruiser. S5 to avoid looking like too much of a warship and to keep up with response. H5 L6 at minimum because they are easy to get and already borderline too little compared to its C (only borderline because Vanguard specialists double down on C, its HM ships that need C=(H+L)/2 for maximum damage output until destruction/retreat).

For the P5 one you can save 10sr per newbuild for +0.5sp by changing the refitted Twinned to Burst Torps. Good design with that, +1S +5sr refit cost -Intel Ops over mine.
 
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Enerael said:
When your H and L have .2 or higher decimals and you have a free 1O, then you can swap Primary SIF for Secondary for a bit of a speed boost.

For the P5 one you can save 10sr per newbuild for +0.5sp by changing the refitted Twinned to Burst Torps. Good design with that, +1S +5sr refit cost -Intel Ops over mine.
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Yep, thanks. Could make that swap on either the L7 or the P5
And yeah, secondary SIF is a nice part, but not gonna tip over thresholds here. I was thinking in part of the H+L of a future Rennie-B refit.
 
Durable Renaissance-A C7 S5 H6 L8 P4 E3 R8, unfortunately O3E5T4 (+1ET on the refit), would be 15SR on the refit, but rounding.
 
Alliterate said:
Refits on base design is little a chicken-and-egg, one of the reasons you get multiple proposals is lining up the refit options.
But, we've at least got some more parameters, now.
80SR, and lets presume we like Dedicated Away Teams on the Renaissance?

(You can also swap the Tactical sensor for High-Fidelity for C5 L6, but the O2 will cause us major refit crewing headaches with the Rennie-A, which will be O3)

So, assuming then that that is our base, you're looking ballpark 35BR/20SR refit regardless, it's more a question of the new build costs (and annoying 10SR cruiser boundaries).
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Given the improved capabilities of the base design vs previous system and the intent of a Vanguard refit, I think I'm okay with the 4T here for C8. The hospital is mostly to get the E to 4, I find the E3 a bit lacking for an update to our primary event responder.

I can't quite get the large core designs to compete with the above, even with 90SR large core designs. If I cost-match the Rennie-A we lose a point of C, S, or P for 2 points of E. Not cost-matching usually costs an extra unit of officers, which seems unacceptable given the state of the O pool.
 
If it's planned event response chance we're after-

More durable and better E/R than the above, but slightly worse at resolving S/P events once it gets there (faster). Does have the minor HF sensor bonus against mines/cloaked ships. 25SR refit I think.
 
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Ship Designer Patch Notes (v4.2)
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    • Ship Builder Spreadsheet v4.2
    Rules Document and Parts List

    4.2
    Tenders:
    - Implemented Docking parts. X kt per slot, +100 kt per tech level.
    - Docking equals parasite nacelles (these are ships that are not designed for high-endurance warp travel on their own).
    - Mothership core equals parasite core (these are ships that use warp batteries like HoH corvettes do).
    - Both Parasite Nacelles and Parasite Cores are crew-saving parts; their negative crew costs are balanced by large crew costs on the Docking parts.
    - Ships with Docking act as supply Distribution when in a local logistics pool; normally only Starbases, Outposts, and DSS act as Distribution in a local pool.
    - Parasite supply cost vs Distribution represents the number of ships that can be serviced (up to the ship's kiloton capacity can dock, but not necessarily all be serviced at once; conversely the limitation may be kilotons if Distribution is higher).
    - Note: Harmony has a slightly different part list for their Docking Clamps.

    Platforms:
    - Capital platforms implemented, these are underweight compared to Starfleet explorer platforms but can be made much farther overweight. This means that pound for pound a Starfleet explorer will be more capable than the same weight of opposing ship, but some polities go crazy and build way too big.
    - VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: Going overweight on a non-Starfleet ship is limited by the polity. Just because you have 4800kt of space on the platform does not mean that polity has 4800kt of space available. Generally polities are limited by their technology, berth sizes, and method of thinking.

    Parts:
    - Removed supply cost from Microtorps.
    - Removed requirement for burst primaries from burst torps, they may now be used with any torp primary.
    - Added a specialized Singer dedicated computer.
    - Added Amenities requirement for Harmony tenders.
    - Removed 5 BR from Modular Hull, it now costs 0 BR (in effect this is 10 BR when you fill the slot).

    Fixes
    - Moved overweight SR to the pre-rounded fields so that it rounds properly.



    There aren't substantial changes in this version for current Starfleet ships. Likely we'll be selecting designs very soon.
     
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