Continuing on:

It is absolutely astounding that Tony hasn't completely gone catatonic or turned into an actual villain from all the bullshit he's been through. When you stop and think about it, every single person he's known except for two have been horrifyingly toxic for him, fucked him over, or betrayed him in the worst possible ways.

His father? Neglectful, emotionally abusive jackass still caught up in SHIELD, who was too busy idolizing/pseudo-fetishizing a lost friendship to treat Tony right. Horrifyingly toxic for him/fucked him over.
His mother? One of the two good relationships he's had, by his own admission. He wasn't out to kill Bucky for his dad, he wanted Bucky dead because Bucky killed one of the few good things in his youth.

Obidiah? Fucked him over, betrayed him, and was horribly toxic to him. The root cause of his PTSD for the shit he put Tony through.
Happy? Horribly toxic jackass who in retrospect was probably foisted onto him by Obidiah, and who from all indications instilled a lot of the jackassery we see in Tony today.
Rhodes? Minor betrayal/fucking over in IM2 with the house scene and the War Machine theft. Yes, Tony wanted to give it to him, but the means and method still would have left yet another mark on him.
Pepper? The other good relationship he's had. The one time she's walked out on him was in the aftermath of AoU and a couple of bad points there, and Tony completely knows that that's his fault. Came back to him, and we see an immediate complete stabilization of his personality again. He's sort of toxic for her, but as she's a normal human being who's not fucked in the head, she can handle it.

Romanov: Her first act was to infiltrate his inner circle, and spy on him. Yes, she helped, but she's still left that mark again on him. Then she was a jackass a lot in the events of the avengers films and fucked him over again in CW and made him look like a fool when she let Cap and Bucky get away.
Jarvis/Vision: Fucked him over by being too busy being in love to pay attention during the big battle of CW and paralyzing Rhodes. That's going to leave a major mark.
Cap: Good fucking god, where do I even start on how toxic an influence Cap has been on his life? From the very start, his father's relationship with Cap fucked over Tony with the way Tony's father had idolization issues. First Avenger's movie, a horribly toxic relationship. Between the movies dismantled SHIELD and cut Tony's safety net that he was counting on to let him be NORMAL (as much as he could be given his status), effectively dismantled one of the few good legacies left from Tony's father, and a whole bunch of other shit. Yes, Hydra needed to be stopped, but Cap's methods of doing so were irresponsible and left a gaping hole along with creating massive rippling issues. Then in AoU, we see that Cap's been pretty toxic to Tony ever since and has generally been nasty enough that Tony's unwilling to trust him to have a reasoned debate. Then Civil Fucking War, and the sheer horrifying things that did to Tony's head.
Bruce: Mostly a semi-toxic relationship. Good things, but bad influences on Tony.
Thor: Their first meeting was Thor busting in and forgoing diplomacy. Then the whole minor issue with Thor's brother being the cause of Tony's problems in that film and nearly getting him killed. Thor's major issues, to include nearly strangling Tony in the aftermath of the Ultron reveal. Bad, bad toxic influence and fucked him over in a lot of ways.


I could go on and on here. That Tony hasn't completely withdrawn from the world over this shit, still trusts and tries to help people, that he hasn't committed suicide from a mental breakdown over the stress and issues he faces... good god, man. Tony Stark isn't Iron Man because of the suit. He's Iron Man because he has a will of Iron. He keeps going, he keeps giving people chances to prove him wrong and to prove that they're not going to be horrible to him. He keeps up a minimum amount of faith in humanity, and keeps putting himself on the line for others. Tony could have been normal. He could have given up at any time, stepped away and withdrawn from the world. He could just LEAVE, given his tech. But he doesn't. He keeps trying, he keeps trying to get better. He keeps trying to build a world where people don't need to risk their lives anymore. He keeps trying to help others do better at the protection business.

The dude, for all of his failings, was the MCU Spiderman before Spiderman came to the MCU. He could step away, ignore things, and shut out the world. But he keeps going, no matter how much it hurts. Because he has great power to do good, and he knows that comes with great responsibilities to try and make the world a better place. Yeah, he fucks up, a lot. He has nobody he can really trust to soundly bounce ideas off of, and that means he's left to muddle his way through. But he admits that, he tries to get better. He tries to be less toxic to those around him. He checks his own worst behavior when he recognizes it.

That Tony Stark isn't a gibbering wreck or a screaming villain intentionally doing evil for all the evil done unto him is enough to show that he's a hero. Ironically, the best damn father figure for Peter possible, even if he does need Pepper to help straighten him out.
"Tony Did Nothing Wrong"

Seriously, this whitewashing of Tony into the world's greatest victim is absurd. Labeling characters like Bruce, Steve, and more as being "toxic" is ridiculous and removes Tony's own complicity and agency as a person from the equation. Steve isn't at fault just because Howard was a horrible person, he was not "irresponsible" in doing his absolute best to stop Hydra from murdering countless people including Tony himself via air strike, and the reason that they don't have civil debates is because Tony is an arrogant and antagonistic prick who resents Steve, not the other way around.

Bruce isn't at fault for Tony swaying him into the Ultron Project, it was Tony who attacked Thor first in Avengers (even in the air carrier, Thor only attacked because Tony prepared to).

Natasha "fucked Tony over and made him look dumb" because she did the right thing and let the only people actually worried about stopping Zemo escape. And acts generally "like a jackass" throughout the films...except not, I think you just don't have a good opinion of her because she doesn't pray at the altar of Tony Stark.

Tony Stark is not the world's savior nailed to the cross, he's a deeply unstable man who causes great harm and great good. The relationships that you so quickly dismiss as toxic are the only things that are keeping him from that villainous status, Obidiah and Howard notwithstanding.
 
I liked it a lot. I most liked the Vulture's design, though. Like, the recognizable normal human tech parts, like the F-35 pilot helmet being part of the kit, had just the right cyberpunk "the street finds its own uses for things" tone to it. It wasn't some custom-built SHIELD or HYDRA job where everything was integrated perfectly. It was built under much tighter budget constraints than that. Nevertheless, the Vulture and his men are resourceful, intelligent, and loyal, and they know what they're doing.

I also like the touch that "Vulture" and his men make their money by literally picking over the remains of superfights and alien invasions. Mostly because nobody in the film ever looks at the camera and goes "he's like some kind of...vulture!" *aggressive winking*
 
I also like the touch that "Vulture" and his men make their money by literally picking over the remains of superfights and alien invasions. Mostly because nobody in the film ever looks at the camera and goes "he's like some kind of...vulture!" *aggressive winking*

It's really nice that the only thing that makes him a villain at the start is that he sells guns to criminals, and there's a heavy implication that until the events of the movie, the criminals he sold them to don't tend to use them much if at all, keeping them more as a deterrent and show of force than busting them out on civilians. You can see both why he might seriously think that he's not hurting anyone but Tony Stark and his rich asshole friends, and why he's wrong.

And you can see that even when he's jumping off the villain slope his goal is to give his family and his crew money and a good life, not kill Spider-Man out of revenge. He just wants Spider-Man out of the picture, and if he needs to, well, family comes first, but he doesn't really want it.

And none of this is explicitly screamed at you, it's clearly thought out but left in the background. He's complex and flawed and understandable and it's great.
 
It's really nice that the only thing that makes him a villain at the start is that he sells guns to criminals, and there's a heavy implication that until the events of the movie, the criminals he sold them to don't tend to use them much if at all, keeping them more as a deterrent and show of force than busting them out on civilians. You can see both why he might seriously think that he's not hurting anyone but Tony Stark and his rich asshole friends, and why he's wrong.

And you can see that even when he's jumping off the villain slope his goal is to give his family and his crew money and a good life, not kill Spider-Man out of revenge. He just wants Spider-Man out of the picture, and if he needs to, well, family comes first, but he doesn't really want it.

And none of this is explicitly screamed at you, it's clearly thought out but left in the background. He's complex and flawed and understandable and it's great.

And yet at the same time he's got a great menacing personality that just bleeds tension into scenes.

"Heya Pedro."
 
Continuing on:

It is absolutely astounding that Tony hasn't completely gone catatonic or turned into an actual villain from all the bullshit he's been through. When you stop and think about it, every single person he's known except for two have been horrifyingly toxic for him, fucked him over, or betrayed him in the worst possible ways.

His father? Neglectful, emotionally abusive jackass still caught up in SHIELD, who was too busy idolizing/pseudo-fetishizing a lost friendship to treat Tony right. Horrifyingly toxic for him/fucked him over.
His mother? One of the two good relationships he's had, by his own admission. He wasn't out to kill Bucky for his dad, he wanted Bucky dead because Bucky killed one of the few good things in his youth.

Obidiah? Fucked him over, betrayed him, and was horribly toxic to him. The root cause of his PTSD for the shit he put Tony through.
Happy? Horribly toxic jackass who in retrospect was probably foisted onto him by Obidiah, and who from all indications instilled a lot of the jackassery we see in Tony today.
Rhodes? Minor betrayal/fucking over in IM2 with the house scene and the War Machine theft. Yes, Tony wanted to give it to him, but the means and method still would have left yet another mark on him.
Pepper? The other good relationship he's had. The one time she's walked out on him was in the aftermath of AoU and a couple of bad points there, and Tony completely knows that that's his fault. Came back to him, and we see an immediate complete stabilization of his personality again. He's sort of toxic for her, but as she's a normal human being who's not fucked in the head, she can handle it.

Romanov: Her first act was to infiltrate his inner circle, and spy on him. Yes, she helped, but she's still left that mark again on him. Then she was a jackass a lot in the events of the avengers films and fucked him over again in CW and made him look like a fool when she let Cap and Bucky get away.
Jarvis/Vision: Fucked him over by being too busy being in love to pay attention during the big battle of CW and paralyzing Rhodes. That's going to leave a major mark.
Cap: Good fucking god, where do I even start on how toxic an influence Cap has been on his life? From the very start, his father's relationship with Cap fucked over Tony with the way Tony's father had idolization issues. First Avenger's movie, a horribly toxic relationship. Between the movies dismantled SHIELD and cut Tony's safety net that he was counting on to let him be NORMAL (as much as he could be given his status), effectively dismantled one of the few good legacies left from Tony's father, and a whole bunch of other shit. Yes, Hydra needed to be stopped, but Cap's methods of doing so were irresponsible and left a gaping hole along with creating massive rippling issues. Then in AoU, we see that Cap's been pretty toxic to Tony ever since and has generally been nasty enough that Tony's unwilling to trust him to have a reasoned debate. Then Civil Fucking War, and the sheer horrifying things that did to Tony's head.
Bruce: Mostly a semi-toxic relationship. Good things, but bad influences on Tony.
Thor: Their first meeting was Thor busting in and forgoing diplomacy. Then the whole minor issue with Thor's brother being the cause of Tony's problems in that film and nearly getting him killed. Thor's major issues, to include nearly strangling Tony in the aftermath of the Ultron reveal. Bad, bad toxic influence and fucked him over in a lot of ways.


I could go on and on here. That Tony hasn't completely withdrawn from the world over this shit, still trusts and tries to help people, that he hasn't committed suicide from a mental breakdown over the stress and issues he faces... good god, man. Tony Stark isn't Iron Man because of the suit. He's Iron Man because he has a will of Iron. He keeps going, he keeps giving people chances to prove him wrong and to prove that they're not going to be horrible to him. He keeps up a minimum amount of faith in humanity, and keeps putting himself on the line for others. Tony could have been normal. He could have given up at any time, stepped away and withdrawn from the world. He could just LEAVE, given his tech. But he doesn't. He keeps trying, he keeps trying to get better. He keeps trying to build a world where people don't need to risk their lives anymore. He keeps trying to help others do better at the protection business.

The dude, for all of his failings, was the MCU Spiderman before Spiderman came to the MCU. He could step away, ignore things, and shut out the world. But he keeps going, no matter how much it hurts. Because he has great power to do good, and he knows that comes with great responsibilities to try and make the world a better place. Yeah, he fucks up, a lot. He has nobody he can really trust to soundly bounce ideas off of, and that means he's left to muddle his way through. But he admits that, he tries to get better. He tries to be less toxic to those around him. He checks his own worst behavior when he recognizes it.

That Tony Stark isn't a gibbering wreck or a screaming villain intentionally doing evil for all the evil done unto him is enough to show that he's a hero. Ironically, the best damn father figure for Peter possible, even if he does need Pepper to help straighten him out.
I mean he has been the villain of the last few MCU movies.
 
I love how Spider-Man finally went a first movie without getting one of his friend's dad killed.
 
Tony Stark is not the world's savior nailed to the cross, he's a deeply unstable man who causes great harm and great good. The relationships that you so quickly dismiss as toxic are the only things that are keeping him from that villainous status, Obidiah and Howard notwithstanding.

Tony Stark is the most dangerous kind of man.

Not an incompetent with a big ego.

Not a scorned visionary with some real genius.

But a well-meaning man with a strong belief that he's the only competent person on the planet, and almost enough skill, talent, and hard work to be right. Tony Stark writes checks his ass almost, but not quite, can actually cash. He writes a trillion dollar check but it always turns out 5 cents short, and that overdraft fee hurts.
 
Just got back from my second viewing, this time brought different family along. Two of them were skeptical and didn't think Tom Holland was right for the role, but in the end they all enjoyed it, especially Michael Keaton.
 
Tony Stark is the most dangerous kind of man.

Not an incompetent with a big ego.

Not a scorned visionary with some real genius.

But a well-meaning man with a strong belief that he's the only competent person on the planet, and almost enough skill, talent, and hard work to be right. Tony Stark writes checks his ass almost, but not quite, can actually cash. He writes a trillion dollar check but it always turns out 5 cents short, and that overdraft fee hurts.
Tony Stark is not the world's savior nailed to the cross, he's a deeply unstable man who causes great harm and great good. The relationships that you so quickly dismiss as toxic are the only things that are keeping him from that villainous status, Obidiah and Howard notwithstanding.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Hell, 99.99% of the problems of Iron Man 2 wouldn't have happened if he simply just gets a heart surgery to remove the shrapnel, or just build a different battery (seriously does that magnet in his chest need +3 gigajoules of energy?).
 
I liked it a lot. I most liked the Vulture's design, though. Like, the recognizable normal human tech parts, like the F-35 pilot helmet being part of the kit, had just the right cyberpunk "the street finds its own uses for things" tone to it. It wasn't some custom-built SHIELD or HYDRA job where everything was integrated perfectly. It was built under much tighter budget constraints than that. Nevertheless, the Vulture and his men are resourceful, intelligent, and loyal, and they know what they're doing.
So what you're saying is that they're a mid level shadowunner team?
 
Mixed feelings on the gag at the end. On the one hand, it was pretty funny. On the other hand they turned what his always been one of the biggest, most emotional reveals and almost any Spider-Man media to a quick gag robbing it of any weight.
 
I generally enjoyed the film, not the greatest but a 'B' to 'A-' score. Two things I disliked are calling him "Spider-man" with a hyphen and
in the film was the lack of injury Peter sustained that would be visible outside of the costume. Spiderman took multiple beatings in some of the fights and particularly in the last half hour. He walks away without a bruise. I'm particularly talking about when Vulture curbstomps his face and when a concrete roof was dropped on him. I'm not asking for crippling wounds or a blood soaked face but is a forehead/cheek cut too much to ask for; I'll even take a blackeye.

I understand enhanced durability but the lack of wounds makes the fights seem cheap.
With that said I eagerly await the next two parts of the trilogy.
 
I generally enjoyed the film, not the greatest but a 'B' to 'A-' score. Two things I disliked are calling him "Spider-man" with a hyphen and
in the film was the lack of injury Peter sustained that would be visible outside of the costume. Spiderman took multiple beatings in some of the fights and particularly in the last half hour. He walks away without a bruise. I'm particularly talking about when Vulture curbstomps his face and when a concrete roof was dropped on him. I'm not asking for crippling wounds or a blood soaked face but is a forehead/cheek cut too much to ask for; I'll even take a blackeye.

I understand enhanced durability but the lack of wounds makes the fights seem cheap.
With that said I eagerly await the next two parts of the trilogy.
Wait they said there was a trilogy?

Sam Raimi's Spider-Man is still the superior movie but this is good too.
 
Wait they said there was a trilogy?
Tom Holland's contract with Marvel is for 3 Spider-man films, and three "other" films. One was Civil War and another was Homecoming. One can assume that Infinity War are the last two "other" films.
Article:
How many more movies are you signed on for as Spider-Man?

They give you options, and those could be exercised whenever. Like a cameo in Avengers. I'm unclear as to which movies, though. I do know I have three Spider-Man movies and three solo movies contracted. But if you have another movie, Marvel is so good at working around it. They're very respectful of your life, really. They understand that you have to work on other movies, and they try and fix it up so you can work around each other.
 
Not going to lie, Vulture is the best villain the MCU has produced. It begs the question, how did we end up in a timeline where The Vulture is the best MCU villain? How did, again, I have to stress, The fucking Vulture end up as a more interesting villain than Red Skull or Ultron?

Michael Keaton just nails the role, and that scene in the car has to be the most tense scene I've seen in a movie in a long while.

No joke, I would love to see a movie about the Vulture. Or better yet, a villain Heist movie about the Sinister Six. I mean, this movie already introduced Vulture, Shocker, and the Tinkerer, you've got half the team there! Throw in Mysterio, Chameleon, and Doctor Octopus forming the team and you are set! Have it be like a Reservoir Dogs/Ocean's Eleven-style heist movie with the Six trying to break into some heavily guarded government facility that has some alien tech (maybe an Infinity Stone?) and Spider-Man is the Hero Antagonist trying to stop them. I WOULD WATCH THIS.
I also like the touch that "Vulture" and his men make their money by literally picking over the remains of superfights and alien invasions. Mostly because nobody in the film ever looks at the camera and goes "he's like some kind of...vulture!" *aggressive winking*
Well both Peter and Tony refer to him as "that flying vulture guy". That is the most subtle way you can do it.
 
Hmm.

You know, I don't understand why people seem to hate Michelle so much (other then the MJ thing).

Shes basically Modern Daria.

Everyone loves Daria!
 
Hmm.
You know, I don't understand why people seem to hate Michelle so much (other then the MJ thing).
Shes basically Modern Daria.
Everyone loves Daria!
She's phoned in to the plot, the reveal is pointless pandering to comicbook fans, and she's likely to be a love interest, which kinda goes against the whole "Modern Daria" appeal.
 
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