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Spells in Silence (Harry Potter)

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Advena Phillips said:
RE: Quirrel and Occlumency, let's not forget that:
  1. By Book!Canon, Quirrel isn't possessed yet. It's only after Hallowe'en that Quirrel gets a new friend on the back of his head.
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...How does that work?
It's been too long since I've read the book so the movie scene is coming to mind right now, but doesn't harry's scar react on the first day when he's looking at Quirrel talking to Snape? Is that bit movie only?
 
Quirrel was possessed after the failed break in at Gringotts because Voldemort didn't trust him to not screw up again.
He was possessed for the entirety of the school year.
 
GlassMask said:
NGL Im curious how much of this is "Lies to Children" level simplification done on textbooks and how much is shit like "The British Wizard's Burden" being the prevailing ideology of Great Britain.

Unfortunately I suspect the answer is primarily the second.
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Keep in mind this is a society that sees absolutely zero problems with erasing other people's memories just to make sure they get to stay in their private little enclaves. Do you think a society that has such a sordid love affair with mind-fuckery would give a single shit about lowly concerns like truth and honesty?
GlassMask said:
I feel like a big part of this is Hogwarts is shit on disability and inclusion. Its a wizard only segregated magic academy that normally doesnt accommodate students with disabilities at all. This is something they have never thought about, and like Hazel not really knowing how to properly advocate for herself doesn't help.
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Correct. Recall the Diagon Alley chapters and how Hazel found a book that said the deaf and mute were essentially Squibs. Hazel is definitely the first mute student at Hogwarts in living memory, and more likely its first mute student period.

Not being able to use a wand is another first and just makes everything that much more complicated.
Guardian-Javier said:
Shouldn't Quirrel know Occlumancy? He literally has Voldemort on the back of his head and has to hide from both Dumbledore and Snape, he even has the perfect excuse of his travels and how paranoid he became during them as an excuse of when and why he learned it, just like with Snape I don't think Hazel should be capable of reading his mind.
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Nope, Quirrell doesn't know Occlumancy. Never had a reason to learn it. But Voldemort is a fairly talented Occlumens and can protect what needs to be protected.
Guardian-Javier said:
He drops the stuttering when he talks with her for no reason? Was the opportunity to sabotage her so important that he felt the need to drop the act just to make sure the point stuck with her? And Hazel, who has shown herself as very perceptive as well as having trust issues, didn't think that was suspicious at all?
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So you missed what happened here, but never fear! So did Hazel. Will she ever interact with Quirrell again and have a second chance at identifying the weirdness? We'll just have to wait and see.
 
Silently Watches said:
Never had a reason to learn it.
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I would argue that him having to infiltrate Hogwarts to be a good reason but I guess if Voldemort can just cover for him then that's alright.

Although if you can use Occlumancy passively to just cover some thoughts, why did Snape had his "full shields up" when meeting Hazel even before he realized she could read minds?

Silently Watches said:
Not being able to use a wand is another first and just makes everything that much more complicated.
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One thing I'm not clear on, is she incapable of using a wand? Or is she incapable of bonding with a wand? I understand the staff makes it so that she cannot bond with one, but through the story we've seen people using other peoples wands, even if they admit it's more difficult to do so, so could Hazel theoretically use a borrowed wand to try to nonverbal spells?
 
Guardian-Javier said:
I would argue that him having to infiltrate Hogwarts to be a good reason but I guess if Voldemort can just cover for him then that's alright.
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He has been the muggle studies teacher for years and only became a lackey to Voldemort in this current school year as the DADA professor.
You expect him to learn occlumency from Voldemort in less than one summer???
 
FictionPack said:
He has been the muggle studies teacher for years and only became a lackey to Voldemort in this current school year as the DADA professor.
You expect him to learn occlumency from Voldemort in less than one summer???
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He took a one year sabbatical before taking the DADA position and we don't know when he found Voldemort, best case scenario it was relatively early and he could have had almost a year, and even if it was relatively late Harry was expected to learn Occlumency to block Voldemort ASAP and after a few months of his "classes" with Snape he managed to advance enough that he managed block him enough to use a shield spell, and that was with Harry not taking it seriously, a privilege Quirrell wouldn't have.
 
Silently Watches said:
Keep in mind this is a society that sees absolutely zero problems with erasing other people's memories just to make sure they get to stay in their private little enclaves. Do you think a society that has such a sordid love affair with mind-fuckery would give a single shit about lowly concerns like truth and honesty?
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I could imagine such a society, yeah. If only because they seem to differentiate between People and Non-wizards, and thus think nothing of the memory erasure when the victim isn't a wizard. Just because you can do something to the out-group doesn't mean it's considered acceptable to do to the in-group.

Of course, such double-standards are also common between adults and children, so it might be acceptable to lie in a children's textbook but not to adult wizards.
 
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Guardian-Javier said:
I understand the staff makes it so that she cannot bond with one, but through the story we've seen people using other peoples wands, even if they admit it's more difficult to do so, so could Hazel theoretically use a borrowed wand to try to nonverbal spells?
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I'd say possible. But the way I see it, considering the ancient myths hags told her about, it would be incredibly hard for her. Hazel most likely bent her magic in a way no wizard did for a long time. Humans can do any magic but it doesn't mean they can do every magic at the same time. And especially not with the same effectiveness.

Her magic may be not completely incompatible with normal wizard magic but it sure seems to make her attempts at it much harder.
 
Silently Watches said:
Correct. Recall the Diagon Alley chapters and how Hazel found a book that said the deaf and mute were essentially Squibs. Hazel is definitely the first mute student at Hogwarts in living memory, and more likely its first mute student period
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Which statistically sounds highly unprobable.

What about magical and muggleborn children who are deaf, blind or mute from birth or by accident? The medical magic while not unlimited is quite absurd in the books...

You think they are... disappeared?
 
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Lain said:
Which statistically sounds highly unprobable.

What about magical and muggleborn children who are deaf, blind or mute from birth or by accident? The medical magic while not unlimited is quite absurd in the books...
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I think you've just answered your own question, they get treated with medical magic and aren't blind, deaf, or mute when they attend Hogwarts.

Or if they're born that way and medical magic can't fix that, they're considered squibs and don't attend.
 
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Lain said:
What about magical and muggleborn children who are deaf, blind or mute from birth or by accident? The medical magic while not unlimited is quite absurd in the books...
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Hazel is mute via magic curse scar.
Magic can probably fix all naturally occurring disabilities. The kids may have even healed themselves before they get their letter!
 
Iirc the only disabilities we see that aren't glasses in canon are all caused by spell damage.
 
While its canonicity is up to debate I think Hogwarts Legacy has a blind student, meaning wizards really can't do anything about eyes except replacing them with magical prosthetics like with Moody.

Edit: Ok, just checked, the student is called Ominis Gaunt, which by the chronology would have probably been Voldemort's great uncle, apparently all that inbreeding caused him to be born blind but could navigate with his wand thanks to his connection to it.
 
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WillRobinson said:
I think you've just answered your own question, they get treated with medical magic and aren't blind, deaf, or mute when they attend Hogwarts.

Or if they're born that way and medical magic can't fix that, they're considered squibs and don't attend.
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Medical magic fixing so much means that they're a lot less able to handle the few cases they can't fix, it makes sense.

Though if you get a first generation mage who can't speak, it's going to be awkward because they're not in fact a squib and will have accidental magic, so not taking them in to school them is a problem.
 
From what I understand Hazel is technically capable of wielding a wand so long as she accepts the destruction of her staff. After that her "only barrier" would be her inability to speak. This ties heavily into the supposed versatility of wizards/witches: they are in fact capable of a wide variety of magic, but have conditioned themselves to seek only wands.

To clarify I believe that any wizard is capable of learning the magic Hazel uses . . . if they could subconsciously accept it. Sadly they're too enamored in wands as the best and only way of casting that they refuse to believe in other methods. The fact that other magical races can cast magic without a wand is seen as either inherent abilities or so primitive to not be worth thinking about. This is easily comparable to how European colonists viewed the Native Americans, who while not as advanced in some ways actually had a better understanding of farming techniques.

Much of this is why I really like the emphasis placed on how it's the Romans who spread the usage of wands, and how modern wizardry has likely forgotten why they may have done so. Standardizing how magic is done allows for schools to teach practical application faster, which means more wizards to field in your military with common spells and training. Making magic require a specific tool that is easily destroyed makes them controllable. Stamping out any other means of learning magic means people have to ingratiate themselves to your culture or remain ignorant.
 
Nyvis said:
Though if you get a first generation mage who can't speak, it's going to be awkward because they're not in fact a squib and will have accidental magic, so not taking them in to school them is a problem.
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My point exactly. They have to have some precedents... and protocols.

As currently shown in a story, Hogwarts staff seems rather detached from reality. Like... NPCs in a glitched video game.
 
Lain said:
Bind magic? 🤔 What do you mean?
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The idea shows up in some fanfics. One I remember, Hermione parents decide to withdraw her from Hogwarts after the troll incident (or maybe the basalisk). So the 3 of them get obliviated of all magic and something gets done to stop Hermiones accidental magic.

Keep in mind the idea is purely fanon.
 
RoninSword said:
The idea shows up in some fanfics. One I remember, Hermione parents decide to withdraw her from Hogwarts after the troll incident (or maybe the basalisk). So the 3 of them get obliviated of all magic and something gets done to stop Hermiones accidental magic.

Keep in mind the idea is purely fanon.
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While it's fanon I wouldn't put it past being possible. It would just also probably be incredibly hard to do and probably pretty easy to break.
 
Silently Watches said:
Correct. Recall the Diagon Alley chapters and how Hazel found a book that said the deaf and mute were essentially Squibs. Hazel is definitely the first mute student at Hogwarts in living memory, and more likely its first mute student period.

Not being able to use a wand is another first and just makes everything that much more complicated.
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further complicated by the fact that Hazel is obviously not just capable of magic but in a way that precludes simply expelling her and snaping a wand...so Hogwarts is kinda chaffing under having a student that they MUST teach...they just can't simply say they can't and dismiss her, that would lead her to going off and using magic without supervision or training...a nightmare for any Administrator. I am also looking forward to the tensions that will arise over the Trace in the Summer...If Hazel even remains in the Wizarding world by that point.
 
It is actually canon that the common belief is that nothing and no one can take away your magic. Not ever. Or at least, it's canon that it's impossible to steal someone's magic.

Whether that's actually true is of course debatable, but it's the commonly held belief. Taking away a Wizards wand removes most of his ability to do magic on purpose, but it doesn't in any way take away his magic.
 
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