Walker of the Yellow Path
Ho There!
- Location
- The Land of Memes
Really? Was it worse or better in 1e?
Skipping all the Steps [Exalted/FSN]
- Thread starter Golden Lark
- Start date
Cornuthaum
Be kind to each other.
- Location
- Austria
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Or pack any of the charms meant to circumvent this exact problem. For Solars, that means either Leaping Dodge Method (dodge any of the other four, leap out of their encirclement and make them into minced meat) or Surprise Anticipation Method (negate the surprise attack, apply DV, make minced meat)
Good chapter, GL, good chapter. Senbrek continues to be my favourite character in SatS.
Golden Lark
The First Fiction User
In 1e, you did not have a DV. You had to, at the start of your turn, dedicate one or more of your actions to defense actions. As in, if your dex/melee pool was 10, you could attack once for 10 dice, defend once for 10 dice, or split between the two with the formula:
For each action n from a pool of p dice for a total of t actions, roll [p - t - (n - 1)] dice. So for two actions, roll 8 for the first and 7 for the second. For three, roll 7, 6, and 5.
If you chose to attack 3 times and got attacked yourself, you were out of luck and applied no dice to your defense. If you chose to attack once and defend twice, you got your best roll on whatever happened first, and then you may or may not have nerfed youself if an attack never comes your way.
At my table for 1E, we houseruled that every character got one defense action at full dicepool each turn, and could split their other pools as needed. Also in 1E, every single PD cost one willpower along with motes, so you had to be very, very sparing with them. Finally, our table was bad with stunts and barely ever got 2 die willpower rewards.
For each action n from a pool of p dice for a total of t actions, roll [p - t - (n - 1)] dice. So for two actions, roll 8 for the first and 7 for the second. For three, roll 7, 6, and 5.
If you chose to attack 3 times and got attacked yourself, you were out of luck and applied no dice to your defense. If you chose to attack once and defend twice, you got your best roll on whatever happened first, and then you may or may not have nerfed youself if an attack never comes your way.
At my table for 1E, we houseruled that every character got one defense action at full dicepool each turn, and could split their other pools as needed. Also in 1E, every single PD cost one willpower along with motes, so you had to be very, very sparing with them. Finally, our table was bad with stunts and barely ever got 2 die willpower rewards.
Parselmaster
Silent Balancing Scale
- Location
- Mid-West, USA
The fight scenes were very well made. I also enjoyed the setup for the meet. The mechanics description was useful too. Thanks Golden.
Golden Lark
The First Fiction User
It's the same sick number logic Archer warned him he'd have to fall into. Even at the height of his alternate's life, it was impossible to save everyone. For the time being, it still is. He doesn't like it, he hates it, but if he hesitates, then even more people suffer and die.
His next move is going to be an attempt to stop the bloodshed. Even if he has to carry the weight himself.
His next move is going to be an attempt to stop the bloodshed. Even if he has to carry the weight himself.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
I still don't really like it. It's like Gabriel Blessing's works, where Shirou has 3-5 years of ideological growth off screen, and we have to accept that the central tenet of his ideology changed when we weren't looking.
Of course, it's not like I have veto power over your work or you have to do anything to please me (anonymous internet guy #7340) or anything, but I thought it should be said anyway.
Umm, I don't think Shirou ever had much of a problem with killing when deemed trully necessary from what I remeber of FSN. Though I agree his ideology had some changes here. Also, partly it may be an effect of the Infernal exaltation. That stuff tends to break a characters mind slightly.
I may be wrong as it has been some time since I've had anything to do with FSN.
Golden Lark
The First Fiction User
See, GB Shirou was resigned to it as a first resort. He jumped to murdering potential threats.
Back when this Shirou was on Earth, he was with Rin and Saber. The three of them together? If non lethal takedowns were possible, they did so. They were possible often. Usually, even.
Priority 1 is saving innocent lives. Priority 2 is saving non-innocent lives. Shirou, by himself, here, lost control once. Hurt a dude, but made sure to save him. After that, people came to mess with him. He let them off with a warning. A show of force, and an attempt to end things peacefully.
They did not let things end peacefully.
After all that, he came to the conclusion that the problem was at the top, and that if they were willing to torture an innocent, unrelated man just to do recon on him, then they needed to be stopped. Permanently. People that are willing to go that far without blinking are generally unsalvagable- or at least, they were, to him and his old methods. With Rin and Saber backing him up, he could have probably landed them all in jail. Here? They're organized crime. They likely would get out of jail in days, then come after him and anyone he knew in full force.
If he had been thinking clearly, if he hadn't had Senbrek whispering in his ear, he could have left the city. He could have used his disguise charm to make a completely different appearance. He could have done that and more, but his advisor was a Blood Ape, and beyond initially faking clothes with the shadow charm and then using it to hide his spiky mutations (and tan and white hair), it never really came up.
By killing the torturers and the men giving them orders, he can save the rest of the organization right now. He had already co-opted the majority of the gang's foot soldiers, but there was always that guillotine of half of them having families hanging over their heads. He can drive men to choose loyalty to him or death, now, but many may choose death over what they perceive as a risk to their families.
That, and he made a puffed up promise when he was angry. He . . . is more likely right now to keep those kinds of promises. To the letter. On principle.
When he operates outside of certain behaviors, his powers (technically his Excellency) fail him. They are a passive but potent influence, and it is possible to set traps for yourself by making choices outside a given sphere (let's hold back a bit), and then your abilities refusing to cooperate until you get back on track (FULL POWER, MAXIMUM FORCE!).
GB Shirou had his, uh 'path of the asura' shit or whatever the fuck it was when he went stone cold badass and expressed his willingness to kill to . . . lots of minor characters. Often. Or something.
Emiya Shirou has always been willing to watch someone fall due to their own actions, if they pass some criteria of villainy. As he gained power, he simply gained the option to contribute to those falls. See: Gilgamesh. He could have saved Gilgamesh. Or tried to. But he was willing to mutilate himself to make sure the guy stayed down. There was no option to arrest Gilgamesh, or punish him, that would apply.
So yeah, please don't lump SatS Shirou with GBrou just because he killed some mans. That kind of thing makes me wonder why I bother writing at all!
Back when this Shirou was on Earth, he was with Rin and Saber. The three of them together? If non lethal takedowns were possible, they did so. They were possible often. Usually, even.
Priority 1 is saving innocent lives. Priority 2 is saving non-innocent lives. Shirou, by himself, here, lost control once. Hurt a dude, but made sure to save him. After that, people came to mess with him. He let them off with a warning. A show of force, and an attempt to end things peacefully.
They did not let things end peacefully.
After all that, he came to the conclusion that the problem was at the top, and that if they were willing to torture an innocent, unrelated man just to do recon on him, then they needed to be stopped. Permanently. People that are willing to go that far without blinking are generally unsalvagable- or at least, they were, to him and his old methods. With Rin and Saber backing him up, he could have probably landed them all in jail. Here? They're organized crime. They likely would get out of jail in days, then come after him and anyone he knew in full force.
If he had been thinking clearly, if he hadn't had Senbrek whispering in his ear, he could have left the city. He could have used his disguise charm to make a completely different appearance. He could have done that and more, but his advisor was a Blood Ape, and beyond initially faking clothes with the shadow charm and then using it to hide his spiky mutations (and tan and white hair), it never really came up.
By killing the torturers and the men giving them orders, he can save the rest of the organization right now. He had already co-opted the majority of the gang's foot soldiers, but there was always that guillotine of half of them having families hanging over their heads. He can drive men to choose loyalty to him or death, now, but many may choose death over what they perceive as a risk to their families.
That, and he made a puffed up promise when he was angry. He . . . is more likely right now to keep those kinds of promises. To the letter. On principle.
When he operates outside of certain behaviors, his powers (technically his Excellency) fail him. They are a passive but potent influence, and it is possible to set traps for yourself by making choices outside a given sphere (let's hold back a bit), and then your abilities refusing to cooperate until you get back on track (FULL POWER, MAXIMUM FORCE!).
GB Shirou had his, uh 'path of the asura' shit or whatever the fuck it was when he went stone cold badass and expressed his willingness to kill to . . . lots of minor characters. Often. Or something.
Emiya Shirou has always been willing to watch someone fall due to their own actions, if they pass some criteria of villainy. As he gained power, he simply gained the option to contribute to those falls. See: Gilgamesh. He could have saved Gilgamesh. Or tried to. But he was willing to mutilate himself to make sure the guy stayed down. There was no option to arrest Gilgamesh, or punish him, that would apply.
So yeah, please don't lump SatS Shirou with GBrou just because he killed some mans. That kind of thing makes me wonder why I bother writing at all!
Biigoh
Tanuki
- Location
- Tanukia
Comparable.
Indeed... it was good times. You really needed to watch out for combat, or be willing to pack SAM, and have the duel defense charms that non-solars can only look at and go woah!, namely Fivefold Bulwark Stance (5 motes + 1 willpower for full parry dice pool against all non-surprise attacks, scene long/reflexive) and Flow Like Blood (6 motes for a full dodge dice pool against all attacks, including surprise ones, scene long/simple).
Well that was all kinds of fun. And informative!
I can accept Shirou behaving in this way. As you said, his advisor is a Blood Ape. He was also twisted by an Infernal Exaltation, which significantly altered the nature of his soul, to the point of removing his original magic circuits. In fact, you could even go so far (as to do more like) as to say that this is a different Shirou entirely. Much like the differences between Mind of Steel vs. Heavens Feel. Still Shirou, but changed through his experiences.
And now he's taken serious steps to becoming a power in the local underworld. I wonder how long he'll have to run before a Wyld Hunt comes after him, or he has to go to Malfeas. Which will be an eye-opening event for sure. He'll either double-down on wanting to save the Yozis (from themselves as much as from imprisonment) or decide that the world is better off without them.
His alteration of Malfeas' power, when his power flared white instead of green... is that some heresy, or just a different application of the excellency?
The use of Magnanimous Warning Glyph was pretty interesting; it specifies that the subject knows when he's about to trigger it, so the dude had to know he was gonna die for trying. I can only imagine that he was being coerced in some fashion.
I also had a question about the charm itself: It says that "Whenever an attack inflicts damage and would trigger secondary burns, the Infernal may suspend the eruption of Essence instead as a Sorcerous effect." Does this mean that only the damage caused by GSNF is saved in the glyph? Because that wouldn't be enough to kill a man at Shirou's current level. If it stores the entire attack, then it definitely would.
I can accept Shirou behaving in this way. As you said, his advisor is a Blood Ape. He was also twisted by an Infernal Exaltation, which significantly altered the nature of his soul, to the point of removing his original magic circuits. In fact, you could even go so far (as to do more like) as to say that this is a different Shirou entirely. Much like the differences between Mind of Steel vs. Heavens Feel. Still Shirou, but changed through his experiences.
And now he's taken serious steps to becoming a power in the local underworld. I wonder how long he'll have to run before a Wyld Hunt comes after him, or he has to go to Malfeas. Which will be an eye-opening event for sure. He'll either double-down on wanting to save the Yozis (from themselves as much as from imprisonment) or decide that the world is better off without them.
His alteration of Malfeas' power, when his power flared white instead of green... is that some heresy, or just a different application of the excellency?
The use of Magnanimous Warning Glyph was pretty interesting; it specifies that the subject knows when he's about to trigger it, so the dude had to know he was gonna die for trying. I can only imagine that he was being coerced in some fashion.
I also had a question about the charm itself: It says that "Whenever an attack inflicts damage and would trigger secondary burns, the Infernal may suspend the eruption of Essence instead as a Sorcerous effect." Does this mean that only the damage caused by GSNF is saved in the glyph? Because that wouldn't be enough to kill a man at Shirou's current level. If it stores the entire attack, then it definitely would.
My understanding is that the difficulty of closing wounds and the risk of bleeding means that even a single level of lethal wounds can be lethal to a mortal. My perspective was that a mortal that gained to levels of lethal damage and lacked immediate access to a skilled medic or healing magic would almost certainly rapidly bleed to death.
That's true, but the way it was worded made it seem that the Glyph activation immolated the guy, not just left him with mortal wounds.
He was an unnamed Extra.
He should have tried to talk about his background like that guy that knew about the Sap.
I've said it before on SB and I'll say it here as well : canonicaly, Shirou is NOWHERE near as saintly as the fandom tend to think of him as.
I'd like to remind everyone that Shirou's immediate response to Shinji's refusal to disable Blood Fort Andromeda in the Fate route could basically be summed up as "Okay, if you want to play it that way, that's fine. Now stand still while I crack your skull open with that branch I just Reinforce, would you ?".
Shirou is a Sword. Killing has ALWAYS been something he had little trouble with.
I'd like to remind everyone that Shirou's immediate response to Shinji's refusal to disable Blood Fort Andromeda in the Fate route could basically be summed up as "Okay, if you want to play it that way, that's fine. Now stand still while I crack your skull open with that branch I just Reinforce, would you ?".
Shirou is a Sword. Killing has ALWAYS been something he had little trouble with.
Magi don't count, it's okay to kill them.
Especially when they are about to kill a truckload of "mundane" people.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
Is that what happened? It's been a while since I watched the ufotable anime, but I thought Shirou let Shinji get away clean with his antics.
Until that thing with Gil.
- Location
- Internet
Walker of the Yellow Path
Ho There!
- Location
- The Land of Memes
The ufotable anime was based on the Second Route (Unlimited Blade Works) of the original Visual Novel. "Shinji, Die" happens in the First Route (Fate) of the VN.
Actually IIRC the anime was largely based on Fate but cherry-picked bits from the other Routes.
Olive
Silent Princess
I think you mean the DEEN anime. The ufotable anime, Unlimited Blade Works, was a clear adaptation of the second VN route, Unlimited Blade Works.
Right.
...I thought that one was just a movie rather than an actual anime?
That is because you remember the garbage DEEN abominations.
Now that Ufotable has made a decent adaptation, we can pretend they never existed, like the Tsukihime anime.
