That... doesn't actually answer my question. At most, it shifts it to "where does the idea that everything is made of Essence come from?"
Skipping all the Steps [Exalted/FSN]
- Thread starter Golden Lark
- Start date
Form your own quote; "--Essence-- not only into the gods and to mortal beings, but also into every fiber of Creation itself. Water, air, earth, wood and fire were the cardinal elements; all material things were composed of them."
So the elements are made out of essence and all material things are made out of elements. Seems fairly straightforward.
No, that says that all material things are composed of the cardinal elements, and the next sentence goes on to say that Essence was interlaced throughout all of them.
Edit:
So you have the elements, and then Essence was added to them.
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Kyte
Never quacked for this
Note that 'denial of nothingness' is not actually known and people are operating under assumptions of what it does.
And people's imaginations is rather prosaic compared to the applications, really.
Like, people take the third as "can revive people" or such when it's actually "can materialize the soul", which means not giving the soul a body, but actually taking that perfect container that is the 'soul' and putting it in the material world, effectively creating the perfect, infatigable, undamageable body, that also acts as an infinite source of prana. In the Plato's Cave analogy, if the material world is the shadows then you're plopping one of the shadowcasters in there. In Exalted terms it'd be creating its own Essence.
When you're given that as a base (and the 5th's own wierdery) then the 1st oughta be just as impressive.
And people's imaginations is rather prosaic compared to the applications, really.
Like, people take the third as "can revive people" or such when it's actually "can materialize the soul", which means not giving the soul a body, but actually taking that perfect container that is the 'soul' and putting it in the material world, effectively creating the perfect, infatigable, undamageable body, that also acts as an infinite source of prana. In the Plato's Cave analogy, if the material world is the shadows then you're plopping one of the shadowcasters in there. In Exalted terms it'd be creating its own Essence.
When you're given that as a base (and the 5th's own wierdery) then the 1st oughta be just as impressive.
And supposedly (at least as I've heard) Age of the Gods magi could defeat True Mages, which gives you an idea of how badass mages used to be, that as mortals, they could possibly equal Twilight sorcerers, with warriors who could potentially equal Terrestrial Exalteds.
Hmm...
I wonder if Age of the Gods Nasuverse mortals could be considered godblooded. Or rather those who became heroes.
Of course, most of the Heroic Spirits from that era 'were' godblooded, so the point may be moot.
Hmm...
I wonder if Age of the Gods Nasuverse mortals could be considered godblooded. Or rather those who became heroes.
Of course, most of the Heroic Spirits from that era 'were' godblooded, so the point may be moot.
Neveron
I am the Mane, come to investigate the tides
- Location
- Subarctic Sweden
Just look at Medea and compare to what she can do. She's the best example we have, after all.
...But then again, having access to True Magic doesn't instantly put you on the top.
(Seriously, the things some people get up to with magecraft can get pretty nuts. Reality Marbles, the Emiya crest, Touko's puppet-immortality, Araya's everything... Crazy stuff.)
Olive
Silent Princess
Medea as Caster is not necessarily representative of Medea as a person.
Kyte
Never quacked for this
Just because you can do something nobody else can do doesn't mean you get the combat advantage. Despite everything, Nasuverse doesn't run in shonen mechanics. Combat strength is a function of a variety of factors.
Winged One
Not the Simurgh
- Location
- definitely the ground
- Pronouns
- They/Them/It
Hm... did Shirou getting taken by the Well of Udr make universal travel cease to be True Magic?
Olive
Silent Princess
Can it be accomplished without magic, Y/N?
Winged One
Not the Simurgh
- Location
- definitely the ground
- Pronouns
- They/Them/It
I don't know, is the operation of a device which exists in a place with different laws of physics magic?
John At Dawn
I'm here, get over it.
- Location
- 35-Feet Above Sea Level
Oh please, how many interpretations could there-
Oh, wait, this is Nasu.
Given that magecraft is possible only under Gaia's paradigm, and as far as we know, Gaia isn't multiversal, only what can be done by the human's currently in the Gaia's of this universe.
Otherwise there would be no True magic :
There's an infinity of universe covering every possibility.
Time travel is a subset of parallel world manipulation, so there's parallel universe which correspond to the past or a future.
If it's possible for it to eventually be done by non-magical means, there will be one universe where it happens, and so it isn't a true magic.
Let us prove that any true magic is theoretically possible to do by non-magical means. Eventually. True magic are possible, so the laws of the universe/multiverse allow for them. The laws of the universe fall onto the definition of Physics, so it's theoretically possible to understand them. And magic is what we can't explain. QED.
More likely it's considered a variant of Kaleidoscope.
Golden Lark
The First Fiction User
Rin can't master the Kaleidoscope while in Creation because there is (presently) no cascade of parallel words to interface with. Even if she could, Essence does not operate like Prana; all the prana in a big cave can be slurped up by a Magus without issue, while Essence is not so easy to manipulate.
When the Primordials invoked Essence, that was the system of physics they decided on to give permanence to their imaginations. Motes/Essence were used instead of Particles/Matter/Energy. When Gaia went deep into the Wyld and poked the Shining Answer/Akasha, she sort of did the same thing again, but not as well since A. Essence had already been imprinted on the Wyld, and B. she was only one primordial, so she wasn't powerful enough to overwrite all that was, forever, by herself. The Planets (capital P) in the solar system were simply Unshaped that mimicked her, becoming spherical beings that each projected their own framework of physics outwards, overlapping but not interfering unless a TYPE decided to visit a neighbor and force its own native reality paradigm on its surroundings (Hello, TYPE-Mercury!)
So for what it's worth, a Reality Marble in these terms is a personal set of physics enforced by the one holding up the Marble. Creation is a self-sustaining one whose paradigm became the 'cosmic default' in absence of any others. Gaia might have accidentally unleashed a bit of Autocthon's paradigm along with her own when she touched the Answer, causing an infinite reach of utter nothingness/void to stretch ever outwards from her own body, preventing conventional travel back the way she had come, as there was no longer a way to reach the infinite directionless Wyld from which once could find Creation.
Motes of essence are either one of the five basic flavors, air/water/wood/earth/fire, or they are a more interesting flavor. All of a given Exalt's charms operate off of a given flavor of mote, by default. An Exaltation is a motonic attraction/conversion/charging engine, with the Solar class Exaltations being the most power and most efficient ones. The Sun is a cosmically huge bad ass spirit; he has his own personal flavor of essence. So does each of the other gods that made the Exaltations (Moon, the five Maidens of Destiny). The only beings so bad-ass that they have multiple sub-flavors are Primordials. Gaia was used as a template for Creation, so Creation's basic five elements can also be found in/on her.
It is my interpretation that those five elements balanced off of each other gave the widest, most diverse spread of potential things they could be combined into, which is why the original set of Primordials decided to use them- virtually anything they could imagine could as least be mocked up well using just those five. Gaia herself has more than five elements to her name. Autocthon, as we know, has Metal/Crystal/Smoke/Oil/Lightning/Steam - He can very well simulate Earth via combinations of metal/crystal/smoke and Water via cooling down Steam, etc. Elements are thematic, not concrete and mutually exclusive.
An Exaltation draws in motes over time, charging them and having them 'ready' either saturating an Exalt's body (like a 'mundane' Essence wielder) or the air all around them (a much rarer occurrence in nature, which forms the Anima effect). Once 'spent,' used Solar or Lunar charms can pour out into the world and settle into the local Geomancy, gradually altering things and making stuff all around more Sun-flavored or Sun-inspired.
When the Primordials invoked Essence, that was the system of physics they decided on to give permanence to their imaginations. Motes/Essence were used instead of Particles/Matter/Energy. When Gaia went deep into the Wyld and poked the Shining Answer/Akasha, she sort of did the same thing again, but not as well since A. Essence had already been imprinted on the Wyld, and B. she was only one primordial, so she wasn't powerful enough to overwrite all that was, forever, by herself. The Planets (capital P) in the solar system were simply Unshaped that mimicked her, becoming spherical beings that each projected their own framework of physics outwards, overlapping but not interfering unless a TYPE decided to visit a neighbor and force its own native reality paradigm on its surroundings (Hello, TYPE-Mercury!)
So for what it's worth, a Reality Marble in these terms is a personal set of physics enforced by the one holding up the Marble. Creation is a self-sustaining one whose paradigm became the 'cosmic default' in absence of any others. Gaia might have accidentally unleashed a bit of Autocthon's paradigm along with her own when she touched the Answer, causing an infinite reach of utter nothingness/void to stretch ever outwards from her own body, preventing conventional travel back the way she had come, as there was no longer a way to reach the infinite directionless Wyld from which once could find Creation.
Motes of essence are either one of the five basic flavors, air/water/wood/earth/fire, or they are a more interesting flavor. All of a given Exalt's charms operate off of a given flavor of mote, by default. An Exaltation is a motonic attraction/conversion/charging engine, with the Solar class Exaltations being the most power and most efficient ones. The Sun is a cosmically huge bad ass spirit; he has his own personal flavor of essence. So does each of the other gods that made the Exaltations (Moon, the five Maidens of Destiny). The only beings so bad-ass that they have multiple sub-flavors are Primordials. Gaia was used as a template for Creation, so Creation's basic five elements can also be found in/on her.
It is my interpretation that those five elements balanced off of each other gave the widest, most diverse spread of potential things they could be combined into, which is why the original set of Primordials decided to use them- virtually anything they could imagine could as least be mocked up well using just those five. Gaia herself has more than five elements to her name. Autocthon, as we know, has Metal/Crystal/Smoke/Oil/Lightning/Steam - He can very well simulate Earth via combinations of metal/crystal/smoke and Water via cooling down Steam, etc. Elements are thematic, not concrete and mutually exclusive.
An Exaltation draws in motes over time, charging them and having them 'ready' either saturating an Exalt's body (like a 'mundane' Essence wielder) or the air all around them (a much rarer occurrence in nature, which forms the Anima effect). Once 'spent,' used Solar or Lunar charms can pour out into the world and settle into the local Geomancy, gradually altering things and making stuff all around more Sun-flavored or Sun-inspired.
Just a thought...
Isn't it stated (or at least implied) that Gil's Ea could kill Gaia in one shot if he so desired?
So, doesn't that mean it could potentially kill 'any' primordial who doesn't pull out a Perfect?
Isn't it stated (or at least implied) that Gil's Ea could kill Gaia in one shot if he so desired?
So, doesn't that mean it could potentially kill 'any' primordial who doesn't pull out a Perfect?
Magic is more of an academic distinction than a metaphysical one anyway, I think.
(On a side note, the original Japanese uses majutsu and mahou, respectively. Which translate pretty directly to "magical techniques" and "magic," so.)
@Jorlem: The Wyld doesn't have stuff in it. It's made out of chaotic Essence, that's about it. Creation was made out of the Wyld; QED.
As others have noted, Denial of Nothingness is a bit more than that.
The First Magic would be like a Charm that costs zero motes and produces an effect. Any effect, honestly - if the Second takes "one to one hundred", the First only needs to take "zero to one."
It's still not a thing even Solars can do. Exalts throw stupidly huge amounts of power at things, they're not very efficient, and neither is Sorcery.
The Second is only available in canon Exalted through the Well of Udr, but that's more due to writing convention than in-universe limitations; Nocturnals are basically natural Second wielders.
The Third - Materialization of the Soul - is ... kind of hard to grasp, honestly. Certainly, there are spirits that can manifest, and ghosts can do the same, but Nasuverse has that too and nobody runs around staring at them in awe. Presumably the point is that you have to be human for it to count - and no, Exalted doesn't have that. Can't pull a human soul out of a body and make it an immortal perpetual motion machine.
We know jack about the Fourth.
The Fifth, the Magic Blue... well, we don't exactly know what it entails, but as a side effect it lets you shift moments of "internal time" around. Honestly, it feels kind of like an effect that mechanically lets you share xp? Anyway, xp-share is kind of a weird space for design but might be thematically possible, Avoidance Kata can reproduce the "things unhappen" effect... can't say more without knowing more about the Fifth.
The Sixth, which may not even be a Magic, but certainly behaves as one. If it is, it's something to do with data manipulation. The Loom basically runs entirely on this, and does a pretty darned good job of it all told. Sidereal Charms do this too.
So... basically, in terms of power/Mystery they're on a par, but Nasuverse has a few esoteric effects Exalted didn't really think about.
(On a side note, the original Japanese uses majutsu and mahou, respectively. Which translate pretty directly to "magical techniques" and "magic," so.)
@Jorlem: The Wyld doesn't have stuff in it. It's made out of chaotic Essence, that's about it. Creation was made out of the Wyld; QED.
As others have noted, Denial of Nothingness is a bit more than that.
The First Magic would be like a Charm that costs zero motes and produces an effect. Any effect, honestly - if the Second takes "one to one hundred", the First only needs to take "zero to one."
It's still not a thing even Solars can do. Exalts throw stupidly huge amounts of power at things, they're not very efficient, and neither is Sorcery.
The Second is only available in canon Exalted through the Well of Udr, but that's more due to writing convention than in-universe limitations; Nocturnals are basically natural Second wielders.
The Third - Materialization of the Soul - is ... kind of hard to grasp, honestly. Certainly, there are spirits that can manifest, and ghosts can do the same, but Nasuverse has that too and nobody runs around staring at them in awe. Presumably the point is that you have to be human for it to count - and no, Exalted doesn't have that. Can't pull a human soul out of a body and make it an immortal perpetual motion machine.
We know jack about the Fourth.
The Fifth, the Magic Blue... well, we don't exactly know what it entails, but as a side effect it lets you shift moments of "internal time" around. Honestly, it feels kind of like an effect that mechanically lets you share xp? Anyway, xp-share is kind of a weird space for design but might be thematically possible, Avoidance Kata can reproduce the "things unhappen" effect... can't say more without knowing more about the Fifth.
The Sixth, which may not even be a Magic, but certainly behaves as one. If it is, it's something to do with data manipulation. The Loom basically runs entirely on this, and does a pretty darned good job of it all told. Sidereal Charms do this too.
So... basically, in terms of power/Mystery they're on a par, but Nasuverse has a few esoteric effects Exalted didn't really think about.
Oh damn, they're the same Gaia ? Was this revealed earlier only for me to miss it it ?
I think you mean zero motes, zero willpower, and zero health levels. There are charms that cost only willpower, and there might be some that cost only health.
Though, actually, a Protoshinmaic Vortex comes pretty close.
Neveron
I am the Mane, come to investigate the tides
- Location
- Subarctic Sweden
I'm not entirely sure that the First Magic actually takes zero prana to initiate, but that's just because we know jack shit about it.
Like, it probably has something to do with the "Denial of Nothingness" and how "nothing" is not a thing that can actually exist so you make "nothing" into "something", and it also has something to do with ether clumps, but that's kind of it?
Oh yeah, and the last known user is dead but there's some heir that looks promising.
It could just be something that takes, for example, ten units of od in to create ten units of ambient mana and a pound of ether clumps or something. You're still breaking thermodynamics in half and getting more out than you put in, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you don't have to put a penny in the slot machine in the first place.
Or some units of od to create actual non-fake permanent Projections. Who knows, really. The only magics we really know anything concrete about are the Second, Third and Fifth.
Like, it probably has something to do with the "Denial of Nothingness" and how "nothing" is not a thing that can actually exist so you make "nothing" into "something", and it also has something to do with ether clumps, but that's kind of it?
Oh yeah, and the last known user is dead but there's some heir that looks promising.
It could just be something that takes, for example, ten units of od in to create ten units of ambient mana and a pound of ether clumps or something. You're still breaking thermodynamics in half and getting more out than you put in, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you don't have to put a penny in the slot machine in the first place.
Or some units of od to create actual non-fake permanent Projections. Who knows, really. The only magics we really know anything concrete about are the Second, Third and Fifth.
It's Magic, I ain't gotta explain shit
Of the first Magic, the total of knowledge available boils down to:
- It gets called "Denial of Nothingness"
- There is a specter of a Dead Apostle Ancestor that was friends with/somehow related to the First True Magician Sorcerer.
- It is one of the True Magics.
Neveron
I am the Mane, come to investigate the tides
- Location
- Subarctic Sweden
Well, there's a smidgeon more. Ether clumps are originally the First Magic's, for instance, and some people say that it has five users due to some weird unknown technicalities.
That's... pretty much it, though.