I forgot to call the votes when I said I would. Anyway, update Coming Soon™.

Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Ash19256 on Jan 11, 2019 at 4:05 PM, finished with 22 posts and 10 votes.
 
That reminds me, @Winged_One² is our Special Weapons department used to working with chemical warfare on the level of binary agents and nerve gas, or are we still punching the clock on heavy chlorine and phosgene compounds? The more dangerous the war gas they're used to handing, the less likely they're going to fumble a nuclear football.
 
That reminds me, @Winged_One² is our Special Weapons department used to working with chemical warfare on the level of binary agents and nerve gas, or are we still punching the clock on heavy chlorine and phosgene compounds? The more dangerous the war gas they're used to handing, the less likely they're going to fumble a nuclear football.
Well, you don't know exactly what they have. There is a binary nonpersistent compound available to you, and they might get others in the future. Anthrax is also available, but not strictly a chemical weapon.
 
Starting Up
After choosing your board, you all were finally told what you were here for. The goal of the project was to induce decay in heavy metals fast enough that it would create a very large explosion. The first problem with that goal was that very metals could have this decay induced fast enough while also being stable enough otherwise. The physicists agree that some special type of uranium is your best bet, together with a synthetic metal that gets created from common uranium. The synthetic metal would be vastly easier to separate from not useful materials, but have a considerably longer timespan until you could get useful amounts because it has to be created first.

Meiar has had previous experience with this problem and has used a magnet to separate the two types based on their weight. Additionally, he could write some other people who have previously worked on the same problem and ask them to join, though he has his own ideas on different methods to separate the two types of uranium.

Meiar's other two ideas to separate uranium were relatively untested, partially because they required a lot of money. Both of them required a gaseous compound of uranium. One process forced the gas through membranes, with the lighter variant going through the membranes at a slightly faster rate. This method could be build given the resources available to the project. The other method would use a very fast spinning centrifuge filled with the gas, where the heavier variant would collect on the outside. However, noone had successfully such a centrifuge yet, but Meiar knew someone who he said had promising ideas.

The last option is to synthesize the second material - which you finally learned was called plutonium. This process would however still require refined uranium to be effective, if to a far lower standard than a weapon. As a benefit it would create enough heat to be a viable powerplant.


The Directorate of Sciences had its own facility based on the magnetic process and had given you five kilograms of nearly pure "light" uranium, the type needed for the bomb. The problem is that these five kilograms were a bit more than the yearly throughput of the installation. A few hundred grams could be scraped together from the laboratories and individual scientists, but they would be of lower purity. Radess thought that this would be enough to possibly create a single functional device to testfire. However, a non-successful test would still scatter the material too far to be regained. He also mentioned a second type of device, which was far less efficient in its use of material, but when asked how sure he was that it works, his answer has "as sure as that things fall down instead of hanging in the air".

Colonel Timboria is very skeptical of bringing in more people because he wants to keep the project as secret as possible. He thinks that the DoS facility should be expanded to provide the material for two or three weapons a year and that should be enough.

The people who were not chosen had gone back to their old work. Ariet had the necessary clearance that you could bring him in should the need arise, and Ciceró was willing to work with you should the need arise. Kalinchoff and Rosenstein had left the country together, but split again after reaching the continent.

Plan Vote:

[]How do you source your uranium and/or plutonium?
-[]Let Meiar contact other scientists?
[]Which bomb design should Radess and his team work on, and how much material should they allocate to each device?


Mixed votes are allowed for both main votes, but will lead to slower progress in the individual fields.
 
So, I have no idea how to vote, because I can't tell what type of device the two different varieties are. I do think it would be worth it to go the plutonium route, if possible, because it can be disguised as a civilian nuclear power project with regards to the breeder reactors.

That being said, I have too little information at this time for me to be comfortable voting.
 
So, I have no idea how to vote, because I can't tell what type of device the two different varieties are. I do think it would be worth it to go the plutonium route, if possible, because it can be disguised as a civilian nuclear power project with regards to the breeder reactors.

That being said, I have too little information at this time for me to be comfortable voting.
The Uranium device will probably be a gun-type, since those are simple enough you don't really need to test them beforehand, which is pretty useful as U235 is a pain in the ass to purity. Plutonium might also be useful in a gun type, but I remember there being issues with that setup. Our plutonium devices will likely be implosion devices like IRL, since while they're more complex they give better yields and plutonium is easier to get once you have a decent reactor.
 
So, I have no idea how to vote, because I can't tell what type of device the two different varieties are. I do think it would be worth it to go the plutonium route, if possible, because it can be disguised as a civilian nuclear power project with regards to the breeder reactors.

To be meta about it...

"Gun-type" bomb (Little Boy): Uranium only. Have a small solid cylinder of uranium, and a hollow cup-shaped piece of uranium that fits neatly around it. Put them at either end of a bomb, such that they are ready to slide into each other. Use a very small explosive charge to shoot the cylinder into the cup (or vice versa). Suddenly, you have a large solid cylinder-shaped piece of uranium, and it is exploding with a reasonably large amount of violence. This is the easy one.

Implosion bomb (Fat Man): have a hollow sphere of either metal, detonate explosives around it. Suddenly, it's a solid sphere, and it is exploding very violently... unless your explosives don't perfectly detonate all at once, or there is another design flaw, and then it's just a mess.



My analysis:
- A bomb test when we have no more bombs afterwards is useless, and possibly worse than useless.
- Because we need bombs, we need material.
- Material costs time, a lot of time.
- Our military guy wants secrecy, preventing us from cutting down on that time.

Tentative two-track plan: Bet on plutonium as the best bet, but hedge that bet with an investment in the simpler bomb so that we have something.
- Expand the magnetic separation facility.
- Track 1: Reserve the first ~4 months of the facility's output for the simple bomb design, replacing what we had before. Do not test. If we are suddenly being invaded and we only have the material for one, we test it on the invading army. Afterward, facility splits its output with Track 2.
- Track 2: Use our initial supply of uranium to develop plutonium. Use the plutonium to develop the better bombs.

Weapons-engineering talents are allocated to Track 1, while our scientists give basic support, but focus on Track 2.

Meiar's scientists mostly seem focused on uranium separation schemes. They sound less useful for a plutonium bet, but as far as secrecy goes, I am slightly concerned that there is this much knowledge floating around out there.

Needed to validate this scheme: some back of the envelope estimate on how much of a multiplier we'll get on the magnetic facility's output and the ultimate adequacy of our anticipated future output.
 
I'd like to point out that while simpler, Gun-type devices were obsolete basically before Hiroshima. You get universally better results out of implosion devices, they're safer, and outside of some extreme cases an implosion device will work fine, unless you screw up the explosive lenses.
 
@Winged_One² what threat do our neighbors pose to us? Is there imminent risk of an invasion? How well would our conventional military be likely to hold up against an attack?
 
@Winged_One² what threat do our neighbors pose to us? Is there imminent risk of an invasion? How well would our conventional military be likely to hold up against an attack?
You are an island nation, there is no imminent risk, and your army is too small. You got tons of oil and other resources, but only a very small population and thus also a very small army. Which is why the government likes to jump on superweapons, they see them as a far better way to deter invasion than a conventional military. Your nation under total mobilization still has less soldiers than most of the Empires can transport to with ease. And total mobilization would wreck your economy.
 
An island nation, eh? Well then, it seems like naval nuclear weapons would be the best option, to destroy an incoming invasion fleet before it could make landfall. Perhaps we should design accordingly.

Also nuclear submarines!
 
An island nation, eh? Well then, it seems like naval nuclear weapons would be the best option, to destroy an incoming invasion fleet before it could make landfall. Perhaps we should design accordingly.

Also nuclear submarines!
In that case, considering that gun types are long and skinny by design, it might not be a bad idea for our first nuclear device to be a warhead for a torpedo, either air-dropped or fired from a submarine or surface ship.

Alternatively, make a gun type warhead that can be fitted to a delivery method as needed, ie. could be a gravity bomb or a torpedo.
 
In that case, considering that gun types are long and skinny by design, it might not be a bad idea for our first nuclear device to be a warhead for a torpedo, either air-dropped or fired from a submarine or surface ship.

Alternatively, make a gun type warhead that can be fitted to a delivery method as needed, ie. could be a gravity bomb or a torpedo.

Y'know, I was just thinking that. @Winged_One² , what's our navy look like?
 
umm Gun Type device is SOOO simple that they never even test fired the type before dropping it on Japan IIRC.

Ideally for long term tracks we need to look into centrifuges for separation as thats the modern method. I'd say use a gun-type device as a back up in case we can't get implosion to work. If it uses enriched Uranium only you don't even need a high velocity gun so its *very* simple. (which is half the issue for the modern world...)

Otherwise plutonium in an implosion device is the way to go I think.

The magnet method to separate out material is REALLY slow iirc while gaseous method is better but requires a lot of specialist material due to the nature of uranium hexaflouride gas. But its easier to do with current tech then certerifuges.

PUREX plutonium refinement is a chemical process to separate it out from the other materials made by the reactor.

I generally like @tomoyo idea where we make develop a gun type right now in case we need one RIGHT NOW. It's so simple that we only need lab tests of the parts to ensure it will work with enriched uranium (Plutonium has too much neutron radiation and would cause premature detonation in any sort of gun type we can make as it is). Also provides a 'working' article that the military types can use to figure out handling procedures.

Otherwise... gas diffusion focus (we're not at war so unlike WW2 US we don't need to go with the slow but readily on hand electromagentic method) to make plutonium and an implosion type device.

Key thing with that is making sure the explosives around the pit go off EXACTLY right. So a lot of explosive tests with high speed camera's etc to get that right.
 
Y'know, I was just thinking that. @Winged_One² , what's our navy look like?
You have three big-gun coastal defense ships, a class of five light cruisers (mind, they're pretty good light cruisers) and a whole bunch of destroyers and MTB's. In fact you got more of them than your standing army can man, partially because some are in the yard at any time and partially because the Admiralty thinks that it will be easier to get new sailors than new ships. Cruisers and coastal defense ships are foreign bought but get maintained at home.
 
You have three big-gun coastal defense ships, a class of five light cruisers (mind, they're pretty good light cruisers) and a whole bunch of destroyers and MTB's. In fact you got more of them than your standing army can man, partially because some are in the yard at any time and partially because the Admiralty thinks that it will be easier to get new sailors than new ships. Cruisers and coastal defense ships are foreign bought but get maintained at home.
So we don't really have a way of sneakily deploying a nuclear torpedo via submarine, then. That's mildly obnoxious, but can be worked around. What about the Air Force?
 
The magnet method to separate out material is REALLY slow iirc while gaseous method is better but requires a lot of specialist material due to the nature of uranium hexaflouride gas.

Expanding on this with reference to my previous proposal:

Our problem essentially comes down to fissile material supply. I'd prefer to target 2-4 weapons a month, which seems to be about 10-20kg/month or 120-240 kg/yr of uranium. (Because while we are not at war, if it does so happen that someone wants our lovely resources and launches a war, then I fear that the war may be rather sudden and short.)

The question that I don't have an answer to is how much uranium we need to make plutonium. Our magnetic-separation plant promises us 5kg/yr of the finest light uranium and 15kg/yr if we triple it. Can enrichment let us stretch that 15kg supply into ~16x as much fissile material? (by energy output, not mass.) If so, then we can keep things quieter by skipping the centrifuges and diffusion, and replace the materials for our baby bomb within ~4 months (longer if it takes a while for the extra capacity to come online).

If that is most assuredly not the case, then I'd focus on the uranium diffusion and the centrifuges first to secure our supply, and plutonium enrichment is a nice-to-have-later thing after we've gotten our implosion designs working.

(edit) fixed mass numbers, ratio was right to begin with though
 
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The question that I don't have an answer to is how much uranium we need to make plutonium. Our magnetic-separation plant promises us 5kg/yr of the finest light uranium and 15kg/yr if we triple it. Can enrichment let us stretch that 15kg supply into ~16x as much fissile material?
The magnetic separation plant is a refinement plant, "light" uranium is U235.
 
The magnetic separation plant is a refinement plant, "light" uranium is U235.
If the Directorate of Sciences would now prefer to refer to it by that name instead of the name they were using earlier, that is fine with me, but my main question is how much plutonium we can expect to make with its output.
 
I'd say use magnetic separation to make enough for one or two little boy style bombs. These bombs just needed their parts tested in the lab - no actual tests ala Trinity for the implosion type. This would be for 'just in case we need nukes NOW' type sitution.

Magnetic separation is HORRIBLY inefficient - the US went with it in WW2 since they wanted nukes RIGHT NOW GOD DAMN NAZIS. After WW2 they stopped it and moved over to gas diffusion enrichment and later centrifuges.

So I'd say given we lack the US economy setting up gas diffusion would be BETTER since it's a more efficient process in terms of energy and material needed. We don't *need* centrifuges in fact a lot of Cold War bombs used gas diffusion derived HEU.

Plutonium is useful since its in some ways easier to make for a bomb then HEU as far as I can tell. It does not need to be as pure (though your breeder reactors can't be set the same way as power reactors to keep contamination down). Reactor grade uranium goes in, weapons grade plutonium comes out after some chemical processing.

BUT you can't use plutonium in a gun type device that's buildable with WW2 era tech. The Plutonium puts out enough neutrons that it would cause premature detonation. You need to make an implosion type device.

SO basically

Magnetic separation + gun type = NUKES NOW (slow build time)
Gas diffusion + implosion type = Longer lead time to get everything set up, but more sustainable/scalable production IMHO.

Hence my thought of increasing the magnetic refinement enough to make some gun types and also uranium for reactors while putting more effort into gas diffusion set up and implosion types.

Basically same thing the US did but more modest focus on the gun types due to the lack of an active world war.

reference for needed material-
little boy - 64 kg of uranium
fat man - 6.19 kg of Plutonium (plus Depleted Uranium Tamper whose weight I can't find)
 
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What about the Air Force?
I don't want to say too much given that @7734's quest after tank quest is over (which I am told is soon™) is about planes in this exact timeframe. You do have land-based torpedo and divebombers as well as pretty decent interceptors, but not world-class. Mixture of bought and licensed.

EDIT: You get a totally-not-B-17.
but my main question is how much plutonium we can expect to make with its output.
Well, the reactor would probably be fueled by 5% or so enrichment. It's build-time is roughly a year, trending under but dependent on outside factors. I don't want to throw in any complicated equations to include how much nuclear everything loves being upsized, so lets just say you would get ~300g of Pu239 after the first year per kilogram input, 150g the first year of operation. Reset after every harvest, 10kg (500g of U235) needed minimum. If you tell some of your scientists to work on it, you can up the ratio a bit and/or lower the minimum fuel.
 
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Nothing to add really that hasn't already been said - I like the 'a gun-type or 2 now and focus on implosion device's' concept, but the only thing I'd add would be that, depending on how much of a lead we have on nuclear technology, that sort of power source could be REALLY useful for us - nuclear-powered ships, maybe a railgun (the german's IRL had the concept in the 40's iirc), anything where the main issue is 'power supply'.
 
maybe a railgun (the german's IRL had the concept in the 40's iirc), anything where the main issue is 'power supply'.

Bigger issue for railguns is the pulse power supply to do rapid shots. It's the point the US navy is at and sorta why they decided not to go with putting the thing on a Spearhead class for at sea testing.
 
In the event that a hostile power were to threaten the sovereignty, populace or territorial integrity of the Ajawate, an immediate declaration of war and general mobilization are to be carried out. As outlined under CASE STUDY: ZULFIQAR, any attempt to fight an offensive war is impractical, and so this defense scheme is conducted on the premise that any battle resulting in a decisive Halinan victory must be a defensive one.

The primary objectives are as follows:

1. To prevent a hostile invasion force (REDFOR) from gaining a beachhead on the island

2. Failing that, to ensure that the enemy beachhead is contained and to prevent the establishment of further beachheads

3. Should that too fail, to prevent REDFOR from gaining control of Almunecar and the government offices there

4. In the event that the Halinan military is incapable of continued conventional engagements with enemy forces, the populace must be trained and armed to conduct irregular warfare against occupying forces for as long as possible.

Prior preparations are fortunately already in place. Three likely landing sites (ARCHANGEL, BEDR and CORDOBA) have previously been identified and fortified, and transportation infrastructure is in place to be able to shift units towards a given beachhead from elsewhere on the island within four hours maximum from the interior and eight hours maximum from the opposite coast.

OUTLINE OF NAVAL BATTLEPLAN AND OBJECTIVES:
Early warning will be essential, and as such the NAVAL RECONNAISSANCE FORCE (NARCFOR), consisting of torpedo boats and light cruisers, will be picketed to detect and provide early warning of an incoming hostile fleet. Heavier warships will be kept in reserve with the goal of engaging weaker, separated elements of the enemy fleet and supporting NARCFOR in the event of skirmishing.

The objective of the fleet as a whole is to confine the enemy to as few beachheads as possible, and provide information as to enemy fleet size and movements. In extremis, they are to directly engage the enemy landing force and close in to provide naval gunnery support for army units fighting defensive actions on the beachheads.

Should the transition to irregular warfare be necessary, heavier naval elements are to attempt to destroy by any means necessary the offshore drilling facilities near the Western Coast and the processing and transportation facilities at Zafiro Puerto, then scuttle their vessels or retreat to allied ports should they be available. Motor torpedo and patrol boats should disengage if under enemy contact and travel upriver into the interior to assist irregulars in attacking occupying forces.

OUTLINE OF AIR FORCE BATTLEPLAN AND OBJECTIVES:
Aerial recon units will initially assist NARCFOR in finding and tracking enemy fleet movements. Torpedo bombers will be brought into action to harass the enemy fleet, but dive and strategic bombers will be kept in reserve to provide support at the beachhead. Interceptor units will prioritize shooting down enemy scout and bomber aircraft, and otherwise preventing enemy units from breaching Halinan airspace.

When the enemy fleet begins to conduct landing operations, dive and strategic bombers will be sent into action as detailed above at the discretion of the commander of each beachhead, with air superiority secured by interceptors. Torpedo bombers will be charged with sinking enemy landing ships and targets of opportunity with the intent of disrupting naval landing operations. High readiness is paramount to prevent the bulk of our aerial assets being destroyed on the runway.

Should the tactical situation at the beachhead(s) degrade to the point that containment of the enemy force may fail, the Strategic Bomber Force is to immediately prepare for CONTINGENCY MEGIDDO as outlined below.

Should the enemy breach containment at the beachhead(s), bombers will additionally be tasked with destroying infrastructure which army demolitions teams are prevented from sabotaging, with the goal of delaying REDFOR's advance and hampering enemy logistics. In the event of a breakthrough at Landing Site CORDOBA, units based at Munez Airbase are to immediately evacuate to Almunecar airfield and destroy all materiel which cannot be transported rapidly.

In the event of transition to irregular warfare, aerial bombing and if necessary fighter units are to expand this campaign to transport infrastructure across Halina, including assisting in the naval demolition of the western offshore oil facilities and the facilities at Zafiro Puerto. All remaining aircraft and munitions must then be destroyed.

OUTLINE OF ARMY BATTLEPLAN AND OBJECTIVES:
When NARCFOR and aerial recon have identified the position and movements of REDFOR, the army must position themselves accordingly. If intelligence shows that REDFOR has been confined to one beachhead, forces located elsewhere on the island must IMMEDIATELY begin transportation to the beachhead in question. Should the enemy attack on multiple beachheads, then each beachhead must make a clear assessment to determine, if possible, the relative strength of the enemy they are facing. The beachhead facing the greatest concentration of enemy forces is to be granted priority when requesting naval and aerial support: if enemy concentration at the beachheads cannot be determined, priority will be determined based on the relative strength of the garrisoning forces. Note that even if the split of forces is relatively even, the priority will be to defeat each beachhead one at a time with overwhelming force while other beachheads focus on containment, so that as beachheads are mopped up the remaining forces may be moved to assist those still under attack. Fire support will be available from local light and heavy artillery units through both pre-programmed fire missions and discrete fire support.

Armored units are to be kept in reserve under a strong AA screen near each beachhead to counter-attack in the event of a possible REDFOR breakout or to conduct a rearguard action as garrison units retreat from the beachhead should preventing a breakout no longer be viable. In the event of CONTINGENCY MEGIDDO they are to button down and carry out all overpressure procedures as outlined in their training, then advance to the beachhead and mop up once the contingency has been carried out.

In the event of a breakout and advance towards Almunecar, Army Engineers must set demolitions charges on all road and rail bridges as they retreat and demolish sidings and refueling depots to the best of their ability, while infantry and armored units conduct a fighting withdrawal. Special forces such as the Naval Scout Unit and CAREN will conduct operations behind enemy lines to hamper enemy logistics and communications and assassinate senior enemy commanders. The overall goal is to force a REDFOR withdrawl by inflicting unsustainable casualties.

Should the transition to irregular warfare be necessary, army units are to conceal their small arms and light artillery and destroy all heavier ordinance and materiel, then retreat into the interior and begin arming and training the rural population and consolidate wherever possible with other surviving units, including any remaining torpedo and patrol boats. The resistance will be primarily directed by NSU and CAREN, as they are specialists who have been specifically trained for these tasks.

CONTINGENCY MEGIDDO:
In the event of a collapse of defensive forces at the beachhead where it becomes impossible to prevent an enemy breakout into the interior, signaled by the codeword FULCRUM, all garrisoning forces are to don chemical protective gear and seek to pin the enemy down on the beachhead for as long as possible while armored units carry out the actions described above.

The Halinan Strategic Bomber Force located near Mesa De Plata will arm themselves with bombs containing DXC-9 and head towards the threatened beachhead or, if necessary, all beachheads. They will conduct chemical weapons strikes with the intent of making the beach uninhabitable for enemy forces. Survival of the crew and aircraft is of minimal priority: the highest priority is successful delivery of the payload. At the same time, artillery units near the beachheads will conduct a fire mission of chemical shells, though due to the age of the existing stock of gas shells under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should the successful carrying out of the contingency rest solely on these artillery strikes.

In the immediate aftermath of the strikes and bombardment, radio contact should be established with the defensive forces remaining on the beachead to determine the effectiveness of the strike. Should contact prove impossible to immediately establish, armored units and infantry reserves equipped with protective gear must immediately advance to the beachhead and re-establish control of the area.

Due to the proximity of several settlements to both CORDOBA and BEDR landing sites, the likelihood of collateral civilian casualties is high. Military and civilian medical facilities should be kept stocked with supplies to handle those affected by chemical attacks, though the high lethality of DXC-9 means that provision for at most a few hundred survivors should meet requirements.

ADDITIONAL RECOMMENDATIONS:
As total control and superiority over the landing grounds is a critical part of this plan, we recommend the expansion of Ajawate's air force through the construction or purchase of additional tactical bombers and interceptors to ensure aerial dominance on both a tactical and strategic level. Additionally, we recommend the expansion and reinforcement of the rail and road lines to cut travel time for reinforcements moving to the beach, and the creation of a secure series of command bunkers in the mountains to ensure that the enemy is unable to decapitate our civilian and military leadership through airstrikes or a paratrooper assault. Several abandoned silver mines near Mesa De Plata have been judged ideal for this task.

As for the Navy, we would recommend the possible purchasing of minelayers, in particular the most recent modelss from Skoda or Sorkensky Naval Yards, as both of these designs have been proven combat-effective. The laying of mines may be a useful method of diverting an enemy landing force from a beachhead and constraining REDFOR naval movement in general.

Lastly, heavier anti-ship batteries should be installed near ARCHANGEL to offset its comparative remoteness from air and naval support. BEDR and CORDOBA may continue to rely on existing artillery assets, although an upgrade or total overhaul within 5-10 years is recommended to keep up with projected technological advancements.

In the process of creating this plan it has become clear that Halina is ill-equipped to withstand a foreign invasion of any kind. Though our military is well-equipped and well-funded, the small population and territorial extent of the Ajawate bode poorly for any attempt at a campaign of attrition, and observations from the most recent conflict between the major powers show that even a defensive war successfully prosecuted would have ruinous consequences on our population and infrastructure.

As such, constraining the enemy to the beachhead is our best option, but it remains a poor one. The best would be to destroy the enemy fleet before a landing became possible, but the small size and constraints on growth our navy suffers from renders this something of a pipe dream. Chemical weapons are also a dubious method of dealing serious damage to an enemy fleet; thus, we put forward that a new weapon must be developed, ideally capable of being delivered in a variety of ways and possessing extraordinary destructive power in order to render this goal a possibility.
 
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