Rising of the Shield Hero Discussion Thread

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One recognices rape as an undesireable thing (to the raped), and then justifies it anyway.
Not going to try parsing which is worse.
Just pointing that, no, Shield Hero does not really take a stance of "rape bad", the stance it takes seems more like "women are liars who sometimes deserve to be raped".

In the world's setting it is seen as a bad thing. The king explicitly flat-out says that he would've had Naofumi killed already if he wasn't one of the four heroes and that they needed all four to defeat the waves. Even Naofumi recognized the severity of the crime he was being accused for.

Otherwise, they would've treated it on the same level as say, pick-pocketing or something like that. And if Naofumi went on to treat the idea of rape so casually, then why didn't he ever think of doing things like that to Ralphilita or Filo? or litterally any other woman out there. Heck, he could've become a serial molestor to really increase the horrible reputation he seemed to relish having so much.

From what I heard, in the LN when the rape of the princess happened? Naofumi's reaction wasn't this: "Sweet, that's what you deserve bitch!"
.... instead, he was so squicked out by it and were like: "Damnit. I wanted to keep on hating you forever. instead, I only have nothing but pity for the bitch now."
It proably didn't help that some king sent him a very graphic video of it happening, which increased the squicky feeling he had.
 
In the world's setting it is seen as a bad thing. The king explicitly flat-out says that he would've had Naofumi killed already if he wasn't one of the four heroes and that they needed all four to defeat the waves. Even Naofumi recognized the severity of the crime he was being accused for.
Severity in that it would have been terrible, or severity in that the punishment (for him) would be terrible?
Because one is not like the other.
And while Naofumi may or may not have been squicked by the actual rape, he still went along with it, and the author did put it there for the audience to enjoy.
 
Severity in that it would have been terrible, or severity in that the punishment (for him) would be terrible?
Because one is not like the other.
And while Naofumi may or may not have been squicked by the actual rape, he still went along with it, and the author did put it there for the audience to enjoy.

Went along with it? You say as if he was in the same room as the princess when it happened. or that he actually did it to her. He couldn't do anything about it, as she had literally been raped to death by some forgien king miles away and he didn't know about it until after the fact. That was part of why he was so shocked by it. How does one save a dead princess when it's too late to do anything about it?

But yeah, we can criticize the author for choosing to write that kind of trash. I just think it's important to get all the facts straight if we can.

overly exaggerating how evil or horrible something is isn't going to lead itself to a constructive debate. nor is attacking the supposed target audience. That's a good way to get way off the rails instead of focusing on the actual work itself.

You know what I'm saying here, right?
 
Went along with it? You say as if he was in the same room as the princess when it happened. or that he actually did it to her. He couldn't do anything about it, as she had literally been raped to death by some forgien king miles away and he didn't know about it until after the fact. That was part of why he was so shocked by it. How does one save a dead princess when it's too late to do anything about it?

But yeah, we can criticize the author for choosing to write that kind of trash. I just think it's important to get all the facts straight if we can.

overly exaggerating how evil or horrible something is isn't going to lead itself to a constructive debate. nor is attacking the supposed target audience. That's a good way to get way off the rails instead of focusing on the actual work itself.

You know what I'm saying here, right?
Pretty sure the habit of the foreign king to rape women to death was known. Which was why she was sent there, as a punishment.
But then i did not read that far along the light novel, and my understanding is that you have not either, so might as well drop it.

More like "this one woman in particular is a liar because she just wants to make Naofumi suffer."
And therefore Naofumi needs to enslave women so he can trust them.
Totally logical progression there. :V
 
Pretty sure the habit of the foreign king to rape women to death was known. Which was why she was sent there, as a punishment.

Known to the Queen, not known to Naofumi. pretty important distinction. otherwise he wouldn't have been so shocked.

Again, we can agree that the Author definitely did not need to write that in at all... let's criticize the actual content that's there. We don't need to invent shit to hate on.
 
"Shield Hero is totally legit and isn't written for incels at all. The fact the vast majority of its fan base are incels is a completely unexplainable phenomenon."
 
"Shield Hero is totally legit and isn't written for incels at all. The fact the vast majority of its fan base are incels is a completely unexplainable phenomenon."

I think the majority already agreed that it was incel-inspired. That's not even in question at all.

Citation on the incel fanbase though, because from what I've seen a good chunk of fans seem to be girls, and the "This is so bad it's hilarious" crowd.
like that robin girl in the video a few pages back who were trying to defend her husbando Naofumi and trying to claim how he could do no wrong.
if anything, the incel fanbase seems to be a tiny minority... Even on R/Sheildbro the majority seems to agree that Naofumi's a jerk (with varying mileage), and so far I've only run into two people who tried to defend Naofumi as this total saint who could do no wrong. And that was out of 80k members, with 450 online usually at any given time. And those guys got down-voted into oblivion.
 
Known to the Queen, not known to Naofumi. pretty important distinction. otherwise he wouldn't have been so shocked.

Again, we can agree that the Author definitely did not need to write that in at all... let's criticize the actual content that's there. We don't need to invent shit to hate on.

The princess was sentenced in the presence of Naofumi, with the queen being very clear on the likely fate of the princess. The princess herself was pleading and begging not to be taken there, while she was dragged away. Naofumi just kind of spectated in silence.

So while Naofumi might not have known beforehand, he definitely knew during the sentencing. His apparent surprise later when the princess's fate was recorded and sent to him can only be described as "bad writing".
 
From what I heard, in the LN when the rape of the princess happened? Naofumi's reaction wasn't this: "Sweet, that's what you deserve bitch!"
.... instead, he was so squicked out by it and were like: "Damnit. I wanted to keep on hating you forever. instead, I only have nothing but pity for the bitch now."
It proably didn't help that some king sent him a very graphic video of it happening, which increased the squicky feeling he had.
Quick point of order, that'd have to be the web novel. The light novel, i.e. the story that has to go through a publisher, has the king of Faubrey killed and usurped offscreen by Malty's buddy Takt before she can become his thousandth victim. So, you know, good on them.

A side effect of this is that there's no "wow, that's actually super fucked up" moment. Naofumi's only objection to Malty's "fitting punishment" is that she might manage to manipulate the king and come out on top, and then they find out Takt killed him and he never comes up again.
 
Quick note on the feeling uncomfortable thing, while Naofumi might feel uncomfortable watching rape, but that does not mean he necessarily thinks the rape is a bad thing.
Like prison rape, lot of people joke about it and feel it is a fitting fate for people in prison, but i doubt most would want to actually spectate.
 
Well, i would not go so far as to say 50 shades, if written from the point of view of the rapist, would be written for rapists, but it probably would have a target audience of people who like to imagine themselves as rapists.

Now, not all first person narratives are meant to have the reader insert themselves to the role of the protagonist, some are meant to explore different viewpoints, sometimes rather horrible ones, but other works pretty clearly are, and i would argue that Shield Hero is so heavily favoring the protagonist, on top of the usual power fantasy and isekai tropes, is meant to have Naofumi as someone audience identifies with, and would love to be in the place of.

Flatly, you couldn't write 50 shades from the perspective of the man. The story doesn't work, it's too wrapped up in being the author insert fantasy. The characters aren't fully realized or autonomous outside her. Shifting the perspective would leave giant gaping holes in the story that would have to be written around and thus change the book.

But we have plenty of books for horrible mysoginists. Like Rising of a shield hero. Or Gor.

Now you're wildly over-exaggerating things. I've heard of the Gor series and to say it's feminist in comparison to Shield Hero is way too much.

I mean, the Gor series flat out says that rape and enslaving women is totally alright because the women would end up enjoying it eventually anyway. never mind that they all get traumatized by it at first. Because deep down all women are sluts who love being dominated. Gor teaches us that Rape is perfectly natural, acceptable, etc.

Shield hero on the other hand, clearly seems to state that rape is totally a bad thing otherwise they wouldn't have made such a big deal out of the false accusation. and from what I hear, used it as a punishment for the princess in the LN later on.

Don't let your hatred get in the way of actual facts, please.

I mean... I have read Gor. And, like, I dunno man, shield hero is pretty bad even in that comparison. At the minimum Gor, like, wears what it is on the sleeve. You can't read Gor and go "You just don't understand, the girls just can't be freed, it's not justifying slavery". Like Gor is an out in your face manifesto of a dyed in the wool mysoginist philosopher and there is no mistaking it for anything else. Rising of the shield hero is created to cater to a wider audience than just hateful incels, and in this manner, acts as a recruiting ground for young men on the margins, teenagers who haven't yet had sexual contact and are a bit socially awkward and, well, get pushed into mysoginist hate spirals like works of media like Shield Hero.

There's a huge difference between "Rape is totally no big deal at all, it's perfectly natural. Just rape any girl you see, they'll eventually enjoy it after they stop trying to put up a fight!"
and "Women are bitches, they deserve to get raped as a punishment".

Both are horrible, bad viewpoints to have and is WAY BEYOND problematic as hell. But at least, one of the viewpoints at least recognizes rape as a bad thing.

And for those who doesn't know much about the Gor series, the author's also been accused of pedophila too in the past. there's passages in the books where it talks about grooming young girls into sexual slavery, even though he overly stresses that their virginity isn't taken until they're "of age". They conviently leave out what age that is, just stating that they are "old enough". That's when the young girls are brutalized and raped, etc. Just litterally beat up into living, breathing pulp, etc. And this is depicted as a perfectly natural thing that girls will come to enjoy deeply in time, even if they might cry about it at first.

And terrible as Naofumi is, at least he gives you the side eye if you even hint that you're into young girls or want to sleep with little girls.

I think part of why he gets under people skins so much, is the fact that the series seems to acknowledge that both slavery and rape are terrible things, But then the series goes ahead and have people do those things anyways. and then goes on to hypocritically say "Slavery is bad, but it's also good if it's the hero doing it and not those awful men out there!"

Which is something I can understand. It's easy to hate somebody who knew something was wrong, and then went ahead and did it anyways. But to say that's worse than somebody who honestly thinks that Rape and Slavery is honestly no big deal at all? Ehhh.....

You know, in the end, I prefer the open nazi goosestepping in his SS reanactment uniform for he is easy to spot and ostracize to the cryptofash hiding his powerlevel and trying to appropriate milk and the OK sign as nazi symbology.

Also, Gor's philosophizing is deeper than just "Rape em til they like it". But, honestly, it's not worth going in to because it's still fucking awful.
More like "this one woman in particular is a liar because she just wants to make Naofumi suffer."

There's an obvious division between "good women" and "bad women" in shield hero.

And, truly, it isn't that different to Gor. The "good" women in Gor don't get raped by the "heroes" either. And when "bad" women become "good" women, what they go through "ceases" being rape. Malty "Deserves" rape for she is a "bad" woman. Her sister, or Raphtalia wouldn't be raped because as "good" women, they are already submissive to the "hero's" will.

The real difference is that gor is a series that cares a lot about the societal ramifications of gender roles and submission that's trying to make an argument of the "natural" state of female and male relations where they would be the most happy, while Shield hero is an entirely egocentric setting where good and ill is defined entirely on the axis of Naofumi and how he is deserved waifus and respect, but is constantly denied it and put upon by chads and stacies just like the hypothetical viewer is. Which is another, uh, dimension of shield hero that grosses me out beyond Gor. It's way harder to insert yourself into the shoes of any of the Gor protagonists (I mean the first is an author insert, but the author does happen to be a well educated professor of philosophy and so not really someone most modern incels identify with. I imagine he plays better with, like, the alt right rationalists, but Peterson just caters to them so much harder. John Norman is, I find, rather niche in alt right circles. He's way bigger in kink communities, but, like, not taken that seriously. Gor's just super kinky)

Naofumi is incel extreme, crafted in a lab to be an insert for lonely young men worried about their lack of attraction and purpose.
 
I mean... I have read Gor. And, like, I dunno man, shield hero is pretty bad even in that comparison. At the minimum Gor, like, wears what it is on the sleeve. You can't read Gor and go "You just don't understand, the girls just can't be freed, it's not justifying slavery". Like Gor is an out in your face manifesto of a dyed in the wool mysoginist philosopher and there is no mistaking it for anything else. Rising of the shield hero is created to cater to a wider audience than just hateful incels, and in this manner, acts as a recruiting ground for young men on the margins, teenagers who haven't yet had sexual contact and are a bit socially awkward and, well, get pushed into mysoginist hate spirals like works of media like Shield Hero.

You know, in the end, I prefer the open nazi goosestepping in his SS reanactment uniform for he is easy to spot and ostracize to the cryptofash hiding his powerlevel and trying to appropriate milk and the OK sign as nazi symbology.

Also, Gor's philosophizing is deeper than just "Rape em til they like it". But, honestly, it's not worth going in to because it's still fucking awful.

There's an obvious division between "good women" and "bad women" in shield hero.

And, truly, it isn't that different to Gor. The "good" women in Gor don't get raped by the "heroes" either. And when "bad" women become "good" women, what they go through "ceases" being rape. Malty "Deserves" rape for she is a "bad" woman. Her sister, or Raphtalia wouldn't be raped because as "good" women, they are already submissive to the "hero's" will.

The real difference is that gor is a series that cares a lot about the societal ramifications of gender roles and submission that's trying to make an argument of the "natural" state of female and male relations where they would be the most happy, while Shield hero is an entirely egocentric setting where good and ill is defined entirely on the axis of Naofumi and how he is deserved waifus and respect, but is constantly denied it and put upon by chads and stacies just like the hypothetical viewer is. Which is another, uh, dimension of shield hero that grosses me out beyond Gor. It's way harder to insert yourself into the shoes of any of the Gor protagonists (I mean the first is an author insert, but the author does happen to be a well educated professor of philosophy and so not really someone most modern incels identify with. I imagine he plays better with, like, the alt right rationalists, but Peterson just caters to them so much harder. John Norman is, I find, rather niche in alt right circles. He's way bigger in kink communities, but, like, not taken that seriously. Gor's just super kinky)

Naofumi is incel extreme, crafted in a lab to be an insert for lonely young men worried about their lack of attraction and purpose.

I can understand that somewhat.

It's like how people in the Harry potter fandom don't hate Voldemort all that much because he's just so openly and blatantly evil. Instead, they hate Umbridge way more because she's not openly evil, and often ends up justifying every awful thing she does under the disguise of it being lawful, etc.

Same principle here I suppose.

Still, I think we need to know the difference between a setting being openly accepting of the "hero" acting like an asshole, and the narrative being supportive of the hero despite everyone else telling the hero what an evil asshole he is.

The setting itself doesn't have everyone falling at the hero's feet saying things like: "Wow, you were so right all along!" "Despite your douchebag ways, you're pretty damn awesome and I just want to be like you", etc. Instead, we see that even after he was cleared of one specific wrong-doing, everyone around him still thinks that he's an socially awkward douchebag.
It's very telling that after they teamed up to defeat the church, none of the other heroes wanted to stick around him much longer. They didn't exactly go out of their way to make amends with him, because they still thought he was a unlikeable person even without that rape thing hanging over his head anymore.

The narrator besides Naofumi's slaves is the only one who seems to side with Naofumi at all. So again, to me this reads more like the Narrator trying too hard to justify every awful behavior of Naofumi's when the reality shows us that litterally everyone else thinks he's a jerk.
 
It's like how people in the Harry potter fandom don't hate Voldemort all that much because he's just so openly and blatantly evil. Instead, they hate Umbridge way more because she's not openly evil, and often ends up justifying every awful thing she does under the disguise of it being lawful, etc.

That and she's evil on a more personal level.

Voldemort wants Harry dead, not for personal reasons, but because he's a threat to his plans.
Umbridge wants Harry dead because he's saying things she doesn't want to hear. She also goes out of her way to make Harry's life miserable, something LV doesn't do.
 
Not to mention a case of hitting close to reality for some people, I'd suspect. How many Voldemorts are you likely to run into on your day to day life? Not that many evil overlord wannabees running around for everybody to interact with. Umbridge on the other hand? I'd be surprised if anyone here hasn't had at least one teacher in their lifetime who was that obstructive shithead who clearly just wanted to lord their authority over kids who couldn't do much about it, and that's not even getting into the whole "massively corrupt and racist government official" part of things.
 
I've ran into at least one Voldemort, but had two umbridges in schools growing up.

My Voldemort was female though, and were a <s>*really lovely*</s> person who strongly advocated for eugenics. She straight up told my mother that she should've killed me because deaf people (and other disabled people) were a blight on society as an whole. [I'm deaf, so...]

She didn't know me or any other deaf people in any personal way at all... and she wasn't in any position of power, etc. At least, not far as I knew. In other words, she was just your basic "Karen" person who just really believed in eugenics and that the human race needed to rid itself of defects before it could ascend or some crazy shit like that.

Sadly, this was long before the internet became really popular, so it's not like my mom could put her on full blast like she wanted to. I remember all of this mainly because of how pissed off my mother was at her.
 
The difference between Shield Hero and Gor is that:

1) on Gor, Myne would be redeemed by having Naofumi rape her for real, her suffer extreme Stockholm syndrome, and the two live happily ever after. Which is literally a fairytale (google "Sun, Moon, and Talia" if you don't believe me).

2) that's a lot better than her fate in the web novel, which is so disgustingly misogynistic that it's impossible the creator can't be an extremely misogynistic man.

If it's a choice between "simulated rape is my fetish" and "I'm so petty that I rape my victims," then I'm picking the former.
 
I've ran into at least one Voldemort, but had two umbridges in schools growing up.

My Voldemort was female though, and were a <s>*really lovely*</s> person who strongly advocated for eugenics. She straight up told my mother that she should've killed me because deaf people (and other disabled people) were a blight on society as an whole. [I'm deaf, so...]

She didn't know me or any other deaf people in any personal way at all... and she wasn't in any position of power, etc. At least, not far as I knew. In other words, she was just your basic "Karen" person who just really believed in eugenics and that the human race needed to rid itself of defects before it could ascend or some crazy shit like that.

Sadly, this was long before the internet became really popular, so it's not like my mom could put her on full blast like she wanted to. I remember all of this mainly because of how pissed off my mother was at her.
Yeah, "Karen" sounds like a really shitty person. Just be glad you weren't related to her. My relatives can be pretty racist and ableist to me and mine.

Go write your erotic fairytale about the orc hero and the deaf princess. I'd read it.
 
The difference between Shield Hero and Gor is that:

1) on Gor, Myne would be redeemed by having Naofumi rape her for real, her suffer extreme Stockholm syndrome, and the two live happily ever after. Which is literally a fairytale (google "Sun, Moon, and Talia" if you don't believe me).

2) that's a lot better than her fate in the web novel, which is so disgustingly misogynistic that it's impossible the creator can't be an extremely misogynistic man.

If it's a choice between "simulated rape is my fetish" and "I'm so petty that I rape my victims," then I'm picking the former.

Eh, I'd rather pick "None of the above", thanks.

I mean, being stockholmed into a abusive relationship that you can't walk away from, because it's a magical slave contract?
being murdered while being raped at the same time?

It's just hard to tell which one is better or worse than the other one. With the first one, I think I'd rather die than have that happen to me.
 
It's like how people in the Harry potter fandom don't hate Voldemort all that much because he's just so openly and blatantly evil. Instead, they hate Umbridge way more because she's not openly evil, and often ends up justifying every awful thing she does under the disguise of it being lawful, etc.
There's a reason behind this, or at least one reason.

The worst we see Voldemort do is kill people. I mean, yeah, pretty evil, but he's the villain. He's kinda expected to do that. Umbridge, however, takes it another step further.

She basically goes and suggests that Harry Potter is a liar despite him having gone through PTSD from seeing not just someone dying but also the revival of his parents' killer, the man responsible for his misery. She even goes as far as to not only sic demonic security guards (who were meant to be stationed at wizard Alcatraz) on Harry, but also permanently scar Harry Potter via a pen that she forces him to use. And what is the scar? "I mustn't tell lies".

And then she's later seen in the endgame putting a muggleborn wizard on trial in a system that's clearly ruled by anti-Muggleborn supremacists while Voldemort does... Voldemort stuff.

I guess in the case of Shield Hero, Naofumi does Naofumi things, but then you have other characters go out of their way to show how evil they are.
 
Eh, I'd rather pick "None of the above", thanks.

I mean, being stockholmed into a abusive relationship that you can't walk away from, because it's a magical slave contract?
being murdered while being raped at the same time?

It's just hard to tell which one is better or worse than the other one. With the first one, I think I'd rather die than have that happen to me.
Well, the first happened in the shield hero anime, second in the webnovel so we have ourselves well covered. :thonk:
 
Well, the first happened in the shield hero anime, second in the webnovel so we have ourselves well covered. :thonk:

The person I was replying to was comparing Gor and Sheild Hero.

Whereas I was saying it was like comparing choosing between having to eat fresh shit served up directly from somebody's ass, vs eating a decade-old plate of withered shit that somebody pooped out and then saved for some reason. In the end it's all shit, really. so to compare which one is worse or not is just silly.

And maybe even worse than that is the people who tends to take it SO friggin' seriously. like they think it'll set out to brainwash billions of people into being woman-hating assholes, as if that was the author's goal all along. When more than likely the author was just trying to make money by pandering to the lowest demographic. who by the way, is still a very tiny minority of people.

I mean, I look at the anime and how over the top it is, and I wonder how anybody could ever take it seriously.
Here we have the narrator, trying SO hard to convince us that Naofumi is totally a kind, decent person deep down but then Naofumi goes against the Narrator's words by acting like a total ass and having everyone react to this in the most realistic way possible-- by telling Naofumi off and asking him what the hell his problem is.

Narrator: "I just don't get why everyone hates Naofumi. He's the very embodiment of the underdog... the unsung hero who does his best to save everyone despite everything he went though!"
Naofumi: *literally bullies other merchants into buying worthless junk for twice the price, while cackling like a stereotypical villain* *buys slaves to torture* *and so on forth*
everyone else on the show: "What the hell is your problem, Naofumi?"
Melty: "Bwhaha, plays into my plans perfectly. Naofumi can distract everyone else with his asshole behavoior while I get to be evil behind the scenes!"
Narrator: "I... I just don't get it man. everyone should love Naofumi!"

My reaction to this narrator who seemed to be reading a competely different script from the rest of the cast:
 
Actually if I remember right Naofumi had to treaten people in order to buy and sell at market price, otherwise he was getting horribly ripped off.
 
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