Rising of the Shield Hero Discussion Thread

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That isnt you criticizing anything, thats you quoting Ford Prefect and then going on a weird tangent about people who overreact to feminist principles the same way you apparently do to MRAs and their own beliefs.
What do MRA have to do with anything.

And the purpose of the post shows that I'm not blind to these things, I don't have to make a whole essay when the only thing that needs proven is that I do not enjoy the Nasuverse uncritically.
Wheres your critical analysis of ASoIAF, then? ToAru is unironic trash, but I want to see this callout you say exists.
I'm not gonna link to every time I said a criticism of things I like, because it would be a waste of time.
 
Could we put the "Discussion" part of the thread title in between quotation marks, cause I feel that's about the only thing we are gonna get.
There is literally no possible way to ever justify writing your hero as a slave owner and calling it a good thing, because you are entirely responsible for the treatment of said demi-humans because of the fact that you're the goddamned author. If you set up your work such that it shows the main character to be justified in his taking of slaves, then that's incredibly fucked up.
It's not really preemptively when we've already had someone argue that it's a good thing he keeps slaves because they're all demihuman and they're mistreated by full humans so he treats them better.

The MC buying and owning slaves isn't ever supposed to be a good thing. After the whole "got framed" debacle he became literaly unable to trust people without having power over them, in the manga he explicitly picked a little girl because he was afraid anything stronger would just overpower and kill him given the chance.
Raphtalia at first considers being owned by him an improvement because it beats being merch on a slavehouse and all the fun existential dread that brings.
 
I didn't quote you in that post you were responding to, though?

Just Dream Logic for acting like he had actually followed the series when making up stuff to get outraged over, and all fictions for acting like hes some kind of faultless paragon of good taste.

If I did criticize you here and I forgot, please show me where so I can recall the instance and properly answer your request for clarification.


Sure, you're a Type-Moon fan, all fictions. Nasu and that crew make squicky sounding decisions in characterization as well.

Thats why Im pointing out your double standard. Maybe you didn't criticize people for enjoying the work itself directly, but you sure waved a broad brush by implication. I dont deal in everything being political, but if you lean on that kind of Doylist mindset it applies to your own thought process just as well.
It's totally possible to like problematic fiction and realize it's bad, in fact there's an entire thread about it.

The problem comes when you start excusing these things to justify liking something to yourself. I really love One Piece, but the way the series treats women is honestly sexist at times. I'm a huge Skullgirls fan, but Alex Ahad's designs are so horny they occasionally undercut important character traits.

There's nothing wrong with liking things. I don't think people who like shield hero are bad people; as long as they don't do shit like..random example here... excuse slavery.
 
I'm just going to be blunt and say that this show is even worse that worthless trash, and the fact that people will seriously defend this sickens me to my very core.

Not very diplomatic, I know. But I know where this bullshit leads.

Pfft, if that's your reaction to this, you clearly haven't been on the internet enough and/or need to get out more

There are people who legitimately like Cross Ange, after all

Edit: and like, you got tempbanned once on SB because of Shield Hero discussion so in terms of who here is in a bad position to discuss SH...

Getting tempbanned on SB (or this site for that matter) isn't really a case against someone in and of itself, TBH

and all fictions for acting like hes some kind of faultless paragon of good taste.

Yeah, that's obviously me :V
 
How often does the main character purchase slaves from them, out of curiosity?
Fairly often after he begins trying to repopulate his village and form a pseudo-PMC. He leans on the Slave Trader to acquire former residents of the town that had been sold into slavery, and powerful combatants to serve under him. The closest thing to levity this subplot is treated with are when some groups hear about this and use said trader as an intermediary to try and insert women of their choosing into the process. Its pretty hamfisted and treated with appropriate disdain in story, before going to actual slaves and showing them living in squalor and disease. It uses this angle to fellate Naofumi as some kind of heroic figure, rather than justify slavery as a whole. Granted, I read Shield Hero for the same reason I watch its always Sunny, so me not buying into that stuff hardly ruins the story for me.

The Slave Trader is treated as a joke, but never sympathetic.

Hey, I can vouch for @all fictions regularly and quite harshly criticizing ASoIaF, Dresden Files, and basically every thing he reads, even the stuff he enjoys, even stuff we
Sure.

Ill take your word for it, then.
 
Getting tempbanned on SB (or this site for that matter) isn't really a case against someone in and of itself, TBH
True, but if we are airing dirty laundry about past misdeeds supposedly invalidating people's opinions, I thought I might as well :V

Plus, what he said that got him tempbanned isn't flattering to say the least.
 
There's nothing wrong with liking things. I don't think people who like shield hero are bad people; as long as they don't do shit like..random example here... excuse slavery.
Sure, and thats totally on point.

You don't need to make up stuff to criticize Shield Hero on, is my only real problem. Most of the characters are total scumbags, after all.

What do MRA have to do with anything
People that typically complain over feminist angles in whatever get referred to as MRAs as a shorthand. Its why I used the term there since you referenced those kinds of individuals in the post you linked.

I'm not gonna link to every time I said a criticism of things I like, because it would be a waste of time.
As if I asked you to do that, lol

But whatever, someone else already vouched for your integrity so its a moot point.
 
No, I think I will very much continue to be disgusted by this work that normalizes a frankly awful worldview. Even if it gives only the fewest people the tiniest push into radicalization, all it takes is for one of them to have the means.

This show is part of an extremely toxic media environment, and is only helping push it further that way. I'm not going to apologize for thinking it needs to be fought.
 
And I will bow out because I very much wanted to enjoy binge watching Bob's Burgers today. Peace.
 
The Slave Trader is treated as a joke, but never sympathetic.
Thanks for summing up a pretty good reason why Shield Hero is terrible in the first eight words of your post.

Edit: To expand on this, it doesn't matter how much you try make the character a caricature of a villain if your protagonist actively purchases slaves often, because then it's something acceptable to do by the standards of the work unless it's a villain protagonist, which Naofumi is not.
 
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No, I think I will very much continue to be disgusted by this work that normalizes a frankly awful worldview. Even if it gives only the fewest people the tiniest push into radicalization, all it takes is for one of them to have the means.

This show is part of an extremely toxic media environment, and is only helping push it further that way. I'm not going to apologize for thinking it needs to be fought.
Sure, and thats your right.

But if your solution to the marketplace of ideas is tunnel vision, dont be surprised where you find yourself at the end of that path.

Thanks for summing up a pretty good reason why Shield Hero is terrible in the first eight words of your post.
Fairly often after he begins trying to repopulate
???

...Oh, you're one of those types.

No wonder you took such offense to me getting up in arms over personal integrity!

Explains a lot, lol

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Edit: To expand on this, it doesn't matter how much you try make the character a caricature of a villain if your protagonist actively purchases slaves often, because then it's something acceptable to do by the standards of the work unless it's a villain protagonist, which Naofumi is not.
he...totally is though?

He buys slaves, engages in extortion and racketeering, abuses child labor and child soldiers, kills those who oppose him, acts as a naked subversive against regimes he dislikes, incites a coup de tat against an isolated island nation for the sake of cosplay, hits women and engages in animal cruelty...

Hes a total bastard lol

Hell in the WN he goes on a bender as a wannabe saturday morning cartoon villain, and the cast is split in half over whether or not thats him or some kind of replacement or possession subverting him. He's described fairly regularly as "having a villainous face" as well.

Hes portrayed as sympathetic, sure, but hes a total villain protagonist.
 
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...Oh, you're one of those types.

No wonder you took such offense to me getting up in arms over personal integrity!

Explains a lot, lol
Do go on, I'm curious.
he...totally is though?

He buys slaves, engages in extortion and racketeering, abuses child labor and child soldiers, kills those who oppose him, acts as a naked subversive against regimes he dislikes, incites a coup de tat against an isolated island nation for the sake of cosplay...

Hes a total bastard lol
Does the story treat him like a villain to be stopped for all this?
 
Oh you went there lol

Well, considering the issue at hand is one of personal integrity, did you expect me to flinch or something? Gotcha moments dont mean much to me, but I guess if you're playing to an audience they might be worth something or another.
A black mark is a black mark, though. I tend to take people less seriously when they act so dogmatic in their blind hatred to the point where they try and take over the entire thread through sheer reply density.
 
This is why I didn't want you guys making a Shield Hero thread.

Anyway, for those of you saying things like "Naofumi's a sexist jerk, but that doesn't mean the work itself is sexist" and "Malty just used the false rape accusation because it was the most convenient option available to her", let's talk about Malty's fate.

The queen decides Malty absolutely has to go, and gives her away to the king of a foreign nation who is a mega ultra rapist, who then rapes and tortures her to death. Ignoring how this man's torture and rape of literally ten throusand women hasn't caused a revolt yet... what was the purpose of giving Malty to him? If you really want to make Thermian Arguments then fine: what was the queen's reason to give her own daughter away to that horrific fate rather than just executing her? The result would have been the same either way.

And then there's the way it's framed: as something cathartic, rather than an extreme miscarriage of justice. It's not used to show that the queen is every bit as mad and cruel as her husband and daughter; no, it's kind of implicitly approved of. A karmic end. A sexual punishment for a sexual being. It is very blatantly implied to be thematic comeuppance for her falsely accusing Naofumi of rape; yes, she had performed other crimes, but it was this one which caused the narrative to condemn her as pure evil.

Raphtalia and the queen are the Madonna, and Malty is the Whore, so Malty is punished as such. Rising of the Shield Hero is built, from the ground up, on a primal hatred of women.
 
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Sure, and thats your right.

But if your solution to the marketplace of ideas is tunnel vision, don't be surprised where you find yourself at the end of that path.
What the hell is that supposed to mean? Give incels a chance?

Like it or not, fiction changes you. Uncritically enjoying fiction just means you don't notice it. And this is an industry where attention is often more important than actual merit, meaning controversy sells. And the idea of people ideologically committed to being uncritical of the fiction they consume gobbling up Shield Hero, with it's world where rape accusers are all just conniving bitches and the perfect waifu wants to be you slave? That scares me.
 
Do go on, I'm curious.
I mean, you misrepresented my post to make a joke and dismiss the argument therein.

If the shoe fits and whatnot

Does the story treat him like a villain to be stopped for all this?
No, because frequently hes faced off against people who are just as bad but not provided sympathetic perspectives by the author.

Then again, that doesnt mean Ains Ool Gown is a virtuous hero either, since Overlord engages in much the same kind of narrative beats when demonstrating how monstrous Nazerick ultimately is.

Granted, I'm not saying Shield Hero is a flawless work, but its a hamfisted edgelord fantasy that mucks about whether to go all in on one side of the divide between dark fantasy and light fantasy or not.

He is treated as a villain by the supporting cast however, mostly as part of a boke and tsukkomi routine between Naofumi himself and other characters, though, if not one to be stopped because they treat it as more of a character quirk than an actual threat.

Outside the mad scientist bender.

That time they legit went after him with force.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Give incels a chance?
Yep.

And I also give antifa and flat out anarchists a chance because at the end of the day we're all human, and thus we have the capacity to learn from our mistakes and change for the better. Because our perspectives are all ultimately flawed, and interaction is how we are shown those flaws through conversations and experience.

The alternative to dialogue after all is, ultimately, violence.
 
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I mean, you misrepresented my post to make a joke and dismiss the argument therein.

If the shoe fits and whatnot
First eight words of the post I quoted, to be clear. Those being "The Slave Trader is treated as a joke".

And if he's not actually seriously considered a threat that must be stopped and the supporting cast consider it more of a character quirk, then no, he's not a villain protagonist. If we're meant to root for him and cheer for him when he succeeds, and to be sad when he doesn't, he's not a villain protagonist. If the story itself justifies him changing a woman's name to "Bitch", or "Slut", or "Whore", and also justifies his constant purchasing of slaves, then no, he isn't a villain protagonist.
 
A black mark is a black mark, though. I tend to take people less seriously when they act so dogmatic in their blind hatred to the point where they try and take over the entire thread through sheer reply density.
Sure, and feel free to show where I was dogmatic when you act as if that applies to me, rather than stating a belief in personal accountability that is more extreme than the norm.

The queen decides Malty absolutely has to go, and gives her away to the king of a foreign nation who is a mega ultra rapist, who then rapes and tortures her to death.
Except after two separate coup attempts, and three attempts to kill her younger sister who was the actual crown princess.

But this goes into advocating ITG talk, and Id like to think that I learned my lesson there.
 
Sure, and feel free to show where I was dogmatic when you act as if that applies to me, rather than stating a belief in personal accountability that is more extreme than the norm.


Except after two separate coup attempts, and three attempts to kill her younger sister who was the actual crown princess.

But this goes into advocating ITG talk, and Id like to think that I learned my lesson there.
If you read just a little farther into my post, you'll see that I asked "Why didn't she just execute Malty normally? What was the in-universe reason to give her to the mega ultra rapist?"
 
If we're meant to root for him and cheer for him when he succeeds, and to be sad when he doesn't, he's not a villain protagonist.

Huh? Not really. The whole point of any protagonist is to want to see him succeed. The fact that he's a villain makes it an interesting challenge to do so, but you're still supposed to.
 
First eight words of the post I quoted, to be clear. Those being "The Slave Trader is treated as a joke".
okay
Fairly often after he begins trying to repopulate

[Wall of Text Later]

The Slave Trader is treated as a joke, but never sympathetic.
I mean, I'm not calling you a liar to your face or anything, but the evidence is there for anyone willing to look.

Because I enjoy reading it.

I'm not criticizing people for disliking it, I'm criticizing people making shit up about a story I like.

Isnt that only natural?

If I were advocating something idiotic like the Birther conspiracy, would you not rise up to Obamas defense in spite of his own imperfections as a President?
 
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