Return of the 'Original' Terrans

Unless there is any attempt by the aliens to be more diplomatic (as in, not blowing up a moon and saying 'leave Earth or else' in broad terms), it's unlikely anything much would be achieved between humanity and them. The people on Earth may be divided on the issue since they do have a certain fear of death but the world leaders wouldn't. They didn't get that high-up without some modicum of thinking and if they didn't, they have people whispering in their ears that know better and maybe they'll think they can get away with defiance if they hole up deep underground.

The more likely option is that humanity will take Earth as hostage. As someone said previously, we can't really blow up our atmosphere, that'll take more energy than we ever made in our entire history. So how would we do that? Threaten to make it an unliveable radioactive wasteland? Some other way I wouldn't know of? There are some experimental technologies such as fusion power, and antimatter reactors. The later is more paper than reality, though.

So, well. If humanity has no feasible way of taking Earth as hostage then there isn't much of a choice. OP didn't give one in the first place. It's either submit or die and the submit option might lead to death either way. There isn't much humanity can do to defy an interstellar civilization even if it relies on some advanced solar sail rather than magical sub-space/warp since according to our own research, solar sails aren't practical for interstellar travel yet somehow these guys made it work.

So like OP wanted in this scenario. Humanity submits and those that don't are quickly taken care of.
 
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If they can terraform planets, and there are planets that can be made habitable for Earth-based life forms, why do they even want this planet back so much?
Probably because it has some cultural or religious significance to them. Pope Urban II didn't really need Jerusalem either, there are probably dozen more accessible and wealthier lands to take from the hands of the 'heathens' but it was still the one chosen as the ultimate goal for the Crusades. Why? Because it is the Holy Land.

The world would be a lot simpler (easier to live in, too) and also bland if sapient beings relied entirely on practicality and logical thinking.
 
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Well it's interesting that you would choose certain death over a potentially quite comfortable lifestyle.
Or a life that's a good imitation of Hell, which seems much more likely. Their behavior demonstrates that they are not even close to benevolent, so any offer they make is basically certain to be a trap or simply reneged on. We know from history how such relocation "offers" work out in practice, we'd be lucky if all they did was kill us.
 
Yet it should be noted that they are giving the human race lots of chances. They could have just attacked immediately with no warning.
Just to be clear, are you presenting us with a scenario, curious as to how we will react?

Or are you attempting to argue in favor of a conclusion, which you have predetermined to be the 'only right course,' because you are interested in creating a narrative where humanity willingly abandons the Earth and in 'forcing' others to accept that this would be the correct course of action?

...

Because the people you're responding to have made a valid point: there is no way to guarantee that an offer of the kind you describe is sincere. It would be very simple and relatively convenient for the arthropod species to simply allow us to climb aboard their fleet of ships, then dump us on an uninhabitable planet or otherwise dispose of us. Doing so would ensure that we do not somehow leave a mess on 'their' homeworld, either by sabotaging it with weapons of mass destruction, or just by having our stinky corpses cluttering up their field of view.

Given the impossibility of establishing the aliens' good faith in making this 'offer,' and the fact that they clearly have no respect for our lives or right to the planet in the first place or they wouldn't be making it... Responding by threatening to hold the Earth's biosphere hostage by willfully releasing huge amounts of nuclear fallout may not be optimal depending on whether or not the aliens are telling the truth, but then again it might be optimal.

Certainly, the Native Americans would be a lot better off today if they could have told the early Americans of 1800 or so "we have a button we can push that will ruin this whole continent and make it an uninhabitable mess; respect our land rights or we push the button."

The capacity of the human nuclear arsenal is grossly exaggerated. We do not actually have the power to ""burn the entire atmosphere to radioactive ash."" Not even close. At best we can give the biosphere a temporary cough and a fever for a few decades.

Also, the technology for [awesome medical stuff]

Sounds like a pretty damn sweet deal. A lot of people will disbelieve it at first, but once it turns out that yes, you can get to live forever, there will be a stampede for the stuff.
The thing is, we won't know the medical tech works until AFTER we've already been forcibly dispossessed of the planet. And, if it turns out "it's a cookbook," it's too late to do anything about it, even retaliate by mildly inconveniencing them.

See, the thing I'm wondering is, what's the hurry? This civilization has been living happily off of the Earth for two hundred million years. If they were really dealing with us in good faith, they could say something like:

"OK look, we know you're sentimental about the planet; you feel the same way we do, only you were born there whereas none of us even knew where it was until a little while ago. We really want this planet, but we understand that it's special to you. We'll give you, oh... one hundred years to learn the benefits of our technology in the off-world colonies we'll establish for you on other, similar planets. We'll be requiring that you gradually move part of your population off-world in return for what we give you, but we'll let you identify and preserve sacred sites and locations of special historical significance, as long as we get, oh... half the land area, apportioned by negotiation between us."

Something like that would still be kind of asinine and blatantly imperialistic, but it would at least sound like they were TRYING to be fair, instead of trying to brutally shovel us off the planet as fast as possible so they could delete us from the universe and never think about us again.

It would take them a few years, but yes.
So what? Since "mildly inconvenience them" is literally the only bargaining chip we have, we might as well use it or threaten to use it anyway. They're blatantly not acting in good faith, and you're blatantly stacking the deck of this scenario in favor of your desired conclusion while keeping up the pretense that you're trying to ask us what we think we should do.

Well it's interesting that you would choose certain death over a potentially quite comfortable lifestyle.
What you are ignoring when you describe it this way is that other people who are alert to the possibility of deception and treachery don't see the choice this way. They see it as "better to die on your feet than to die on your knees" or "better to die mildly inconveniencing the person who killed you than to die in the manner of their choosing."

The best analogy I can come up with is the crime of kidnapping. A kidnapper often points a lethal weapon at their victim and says "come with me or I will kill you." You, using the logic you apply to this scenario, would probably cooperate. However, in practice, this is not a good or safe response. The kidnapper usually kidnaps people for very nefarious purposes, and kidnapping is a very serious crime. Letting the victim live usually makes it much harder for the kidnapper to get away with their crime, so they have a strong incentive to kill the victim. And to do so after torturing the victim, raping the victim, obtaining a ransom from the victim's family, or otherwise inflicting appalling crimes upon the victim and their loved ones.

It is arguably better to resist a would-be kidnapper and die fighting than to cooperate with them, though that is a decision I suppose each individual person would have to make for themselves.

...

Here, the arthropods are basically walking up to someone whose power is like a child compared to theirs, and saying "I'll give you space candy if you get in my space van, and if you don't get in my space van, I'll kill you."

This story does not end well for the weaker party.

There might be another faction that want diplomatic ties to any intelligent life on Earth if that's the case, though they might be a minority.
That would also explain why they're in such a hurry. They want to do this before anyone else finds out...
 
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Local Cluster Mafia Caught Trying To Turn Wildlife Reserve Into Den Of Sins, Galactic Authorities Report. "We were certainly aware that the Redshell group was using a, pardon the pun, shell polity and ideological-nativist rethoric to push forward an agenda of carbon-world claiming, but we waited to spring until we had a smoking gun", says Constable Chief AEX-12.

"It came under the fairly greasy form of an offer of resettlement, obviously not checked in with the stellar colonial bureau, which just goes onto the pile of white-docking-collar crime the Redshells have been comitting. Add in armed coercion of system-restricted sophonts and you get a deadly cocktail. They're going to get bent, I tell you."
 
It's true that you have no guarantee that they are being upfront with you about their intentions.

Could they be a rogue faction acting in defiance of their government? Again, this is something you don't know.

As for their history and culture, at least what they tell you when asked, their society places a much greater emphasis on collectivism and their historical and fictional narratives rarely focus on individuals. Protagonists will almost always be groups, with individual names only mentioned when necessary.

They don't practice slavery, cannibalism, or anything else that appears as a major red flag. They do war against each other, but no more than humans do (in fact probably less). They have a strong obsession with the past and history, which is why they want Earth.
 
"So may I ask you your name, oh wise terran?"

"Ayyy we uuh, we're the uuh, the Betelgeusi Fratelli."

"May I know your individual sobriquets?"

"Ayyy that's, that's fine alright. THis is uuh, Two Tonny Tony, that's Purple Pincer Prince, they're the Gondola Twins and that's La Bruja."

"...why does the universal translator give you a strong Jersey accent."

"Ayy 'unno."

Somewhere in the mothership, a lobster technician is trying to frantically flush out the specific set of axioms that make it so the universal translator makes the lobsters talk like mafiosi.

"Y'know you got a real nice ocean there, yanno like great-great^130 nonna used to have. Real pretty."
 
Even when we don't have the capacity to deny them the planet with only our nukes we still could do so using some volcanoes. Evacuate Iceland and nuke it until the slumbering giants there wake up with a couple billion cubic meters of ash. For Yellowstone bore some shafts and weaken the crust above the chamber as much as possible with nukes in them. Here you could potentially use water in the tunnels as a hydraulic/pneumatic ram to help.

Vesuvius wouldn't probably need much prodding until the Naples region is a hellscape. Krakatoa and the supervolcano there could be a target as well.

Although there is a nice alternative...

Take every active oil/gas well and coal mine and either set them on fire or simply let them flush into the oceans. Then produce as much funny chemicals as possible, like arsenic compounds, and poison the biosphere to shit. IIRC arsenic is one the few things almost nothing on earth can stand.

And just before doing that unveil a giant gold statue facing the sky giving those overgrown sea delicacies the finger.
 
Just then reality itself folds open, and a planet-sized construct made of hard light and compressed spacetime emerges. The lobster ships start losing power, and are forced to flee the system before life support and propulsion goes out.

From within the immense fractal space fortress of light and force, the actual Original Terrans who abandoned the planet to avoid the Ordovician-Silurian mass extinction swim their sluglike bodies around the displays in contentment at having protected the sacred cradle of life from interference in the cycle.
 
Just then reality itself folds open, and a planet-sized construct made of hard light and compressed spacetime emerges. The lobster ships start losing power, and are forced to flee the system before life support and propulsion goes out.

From within the immense fractal space fortress of light and force, the actual Original Terrans who abandoned the planet to avoid the Ordovician-Silurian mass extinction swim their sluglike bodies around the displays in contentment at having protected the sacred cradle of life from interference in the cycle.

Somewhere in the space between spaces, the Original Original Terrans, a fairly spiny silicon-based rendition of a radiolaria that survived the Theia impact by virtue of being mostly metal....

...Continue grazing on a 4-AU-wide cloud of iron molecules. I mean, radiolaria.
 
Well it's interesting that you would choose certain death over a potentially quite comfortable lifestyle.
A quite comfortable and permanently capped and restricted lifestyle.

No. Hell no. Comfort is not my first priority. Restricting us from our own interstellar travel is the dealbreaker for me; at that point, you've declared yourself varelse, and I will be looking for ways to end you.
 
A quite comfortable and permanently capped and restricted lifestyle.

No. Hell no. Comfort is not my first priority. Restricting us from our own interstellar travel is the dealbreaker for me; at that point, you've declared yourself varelse, and I will be looking for ways to end you.

Call me a cynic, but I don't see humankind ever reaching the level of interstellar civilization on our own given how we're currently doing. We're much more likely to wipe ourselves out first.
 
And call me a bastard, but if we'd go about spaceflight the way you've set this thread up, Houston'd be a crater in the ground. You're not coming across as mysterious with vague answers, you're just coming across as kind of a douche who waddled into a pool too deep for their own good. Okay, maybe I am projecting, but here's the thing: Houston needs their direction. A shrug isn't a good answer to "When is the capsule deorbiting?"

Like honestly speaking it's not even a particularly bad OP. It's mediocre, but it does suffer from what is IMO a fatal flaw of worldbuilding threads: Setting up constraints and specifics. Sure, doing too much is a danger, but doing not enough is equally a thread killer. And sure enough, people've come by, ID the lobsters as douchefucks, and went "yeah no fuck them." People need data to write good speculation.
 
Call me a cynic, but I don't see humankind ever reaching the level of interstellar civilization on our own given how we're currently doing. We're much more likely to wipe ourselves out first.
This ties into my concern (which you didn't address) that you hold very strong prior opinions about what "should" happen in this scenario, and also about humanity and your hypothetical aliens. And that you seem more interested in 'forcing' others to arrive at a conclusion than you are in presenting a plausible scenario.

A quite comfortable and permanently capped and restricted lifestyle.

No. Hell no. Comfort is not my first priority. Restricting us from our own interstellar travel is the dealbreaker for me; at that point, you've declared yourself varelse, and I will be looking for ways to end you.
In fairness, "varelse" from its original setting means "creatures with which no communication is possible because they are too alien." That's not our problem here. Our problem here is that the aliens can communicate with us, and our using this ability to say "we are assholes who have no more regard for you than you would for a cockroach in your salad, GET OUT."
 
To be honest, at least the setting itself is fine and realistic. The issue isn't there.

If an interstellar civilization does exist, and they did take an interest in Earth. They have no reason whatsoever to care about our opinion on their interest unless they're incredulously virtuous. They're just going to do whatever they please. The rule of the strong over the weak.

The issue mostly is that OP posted this set up an illusion of choice and suggestions but it was actually to railroad into agreeing with a pre-disposed outcome and when you do try to disagree or look past that outcome, OP disfavour it.

To make it short, the point is; the line of questioning that OP put up is not one in the first place even if the setting is rational.
 
I never said that you have to choose an option that I already decided on, merely that I find it kind of puzzling that so many people are choosing suicide. I also wonder how much of it has to do with trying to look tough in a hypothetical scenario, as opposed to what you would actually do in real life.
 
I never said that you have to choose an option that I already decided on, merely that I find it kind of puzzling that so many people are choosing suicide. I also wonder how much of it has to do with trying to look tough in a hypothetical scenario, as opposed to what you would actually do in real life.

Both options are suicide, though. Trying to pressure the lobsters into giving up is the slightly less suicidal option.
 
I never said that you have to choose an option that I already decided on, merely that I find it kind of puzzling that so many people are choosing suicide. I also wonder how much of it has to do with trying to look tough in a hypothetical scenario, as opposed to what you would actually do in real life.
The problem is that you're basically conflating knowledge we have right now and the knowledge we would have in this scenario. Looking in on this scenario from the outside, you could argue that the logical choice is to up sticks and move to this Not!Earth that the Original Terrans ask us to, because we know they intend to keep their word. It would still be terrible, but there's an argument for it.

But from the inside of the scenario, we don't know whether these Original Terrans are lying or not. The fact that they immediately crashed the party with superweapons and told us to leave wouldn't exactly engender trust. A demonstration of their firepower doesn't imply that they're honest, it just proves that they can kill us. The logical choice is to hold the planet hostage, because the one thing we are certain of is that they want the planet. It's basically the only thing we have to bargain with, so we can't afford to simply hand it over. The alternative is to throw ourselves into the arms of an aggressive and hostile invader.
 
In fairness, "varelse" from its original setting means "creatures with which no communication is possible because they are too alien." That's not our problem here. Our problem here is that the aliens can communicate with us, and our using this ability to say "we are assholes who have no more regard for you than you would for a cockroach in your salad, GET OUT."
Enh. I always read it as not so much "no communication is possible," so much as "no communication is meaningful." The descolada is not varelse because it is impossible to communicate with it; it is varelse because its fundamental, axiomatic requirements for its life are directly opposed and completely exclusive to ours.

Communication being impossible is one way for that to happen, but it's not the only way. As probably the most maistream example, 40k Chaos is, IMO, a classic example of varelse with whom communication is possible.
 
What is the end goal of this thread? You've presented what's basically a binary choice and strongly pressured people to choose one. This isn't really worldbuilding or thought provoking, it's "Pick heads or tails, and if you pick tails I shoot you."
 
So we have a choice between getting wiped out by a superior force, mildly inconveniencing that superior force before getting wiped out, or abandoning this planet and its problems to live somewhere else for extended lifespans in post scarcity, but with that vastly superior force saying we can't have our own spaceships or a 'second ammendment'.

Eh, might as well solve most of our problems and leave the alien rule issue for a future and now very distant generation to solve. We can't win, punching them on the nose out of spite gets us nothing, might as well keep them happy and learn all the secrets we can. A few generations of science on whatever they teach us should put us in a better position to bargain or fight down the track, right?

Okay may be Earth will turn out to be the sole source of some mineral they need to fuel their intergalactic conquest but when they can crack a moon in half there's no point in arguing. Might as well try to stay on their good side.
 
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