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Render Unto Moloch (M:tAw)

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Dream Logic said:
Y'know I wonder if there are any Seers who legitimately don't understand that God can be beaten, that he can be overthrown and cast out of his heaven.

Because it would be really interesting to see one defect after that realization. Though maybe that'd make them become a marauder instead? Your paradigm for how reality functions just got shattered after all. Not hard justify a second psychosis.
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Mage the Awakening doesn't have Marauders, actually. I mean, they do have the Mad, but they're not quite the same thing.
 
Stormwhite said:
No. This is dumb. You're dumb. You are advocating for divine revolution against the Gods of Evil who dwell in a place that people can't even reach. You're also saying that anyone who doesn't do so, and instead perpetuates the Lie, is an evil person.
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they overthrow the ACTUAL GODS by making AN UNNATURAL LADDER TO SUPER HEAVEN that broke and created the abyss.
Maugan Ra said:
I mean it's true, there are Mages who try to better the world - the Silver Ladder explicitly holds breaking the Fallen World, overthrowing the Exarchs and Awakening all of humanity as their eventual goal, just as an example.

None of them believe they will ever actually see that day of triumph.

But they keep fighting anyway.

You can be one of them, if you want. Or you can realise that a victory attained long after your death is no victory at all, and trade idealism for wealth and power, as the Seers have.
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So be an ass that would sell out our species for a slightly smaller level of being oppressed
Just cause you won't live to see triumph doesn't mean it's not worth fighting for.
EarthScorpion said:
Nonsense.

They're providing a wonderful example of one of the extremist members of the Pentacle. You know, the ones you have to take down - or else barely tolerate for political reasons even though they're crazy.

You know, like the Silver Ladder version of the Daksha.
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The extremist would say to find the seers and nuke whatever city their in to ensure they die because the overall freedom is judged to be worth it
 
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nmage is gnostic horror, it's not nearly as thematically empowering as omage

the reason the exarchs and archons don't crush you personally is because you're too small
 
Dream Logic said:
Y'know I wonder if there are any Seers who legitimately don't understand that God can be beaten, that he can be overthrown and cast out of his heaven.

Because it would be really interesting to see one defect after that realization. Though maybe that'd make them become a marauder instead? Your paradigm for how reality functions just got shattered after all. Not hard justify a second psychosis.
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I mean.
If it were a metaphor for people supporting the system because that's the only thing they know and all...yes, it would be an option.
People realizing they are a part of the problem which does have, however remote and hard, a solution, do happen.

I am not sure to which degree the system is about this though.

Stormwhite said:
No. This is dumb. You're dumb. You are advocating for divine revolution against the Gods of Evil who dwell in a place that people can't even reach. You're also saying that anyone who doesn't do so, and instead perpetuates the Lie, is an evil person.

I think we're done here.
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"Systemic racism and mysogyny perpetrate all layers of society and thus are impossible to fight against because they are The System" - apparently Stormwhite ~150 years ago or so.
 
ctulhuslp said:
"Systemic racism and mysogyny perpetrate all layers of society and thus are impossible to fight against because they are The System" - apparently Stormwhite ~150 years ago or so.
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nice burn and thanks for helping us oppose the idea of not trying to help overthrow the guys who objectively stole their power by killing the rightful gods of the thrones
 
notanautomaton said:
This is flat-out wrong.
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no u don't understand the tapestry can be changed because we are a nolonger sleepy sleeper buckaroo we can gain our quintessance and fight the nephandi who are the true masters of the true true exarchs
Rjrulew said:
Thank you for helping the point im making about gods not being as powerful as their propaganda says i mean there were naturally born exarchs before the current ones and they died so why can't it possibly happen again, albeit with mindshattering levels of hellish difficulty.
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Stormwhite said:
No. This is dumb. You're dumb. You are advocating for divine revolution against the Gods of Evil who dwell in a place that people can't even reach. You're also saying that anyone who doesn't do so, and instead perpetuates the Lie, is an evil person.

I think we're done here.
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neither of you understand the fight we must take to the buckaroos if we must overthrow the deliberative because the gods can be overthrown if we can just get access to the gates we can break the cycle of gods abusing the mortals by playing games in the dome and even though the exarchs are playing the games of divinity we should be able to fight them if we put enough dots in celebrity and correspondence

we can be compentent enough to use our antediluvian martial arts that are available at gnosis three which we have now so we can fight the true true true masters
 
ctulhuslp said:
I
"Systemic racism and mysogyny perpetrate all layers of society and thus are impossible to fight against because they are The System" - apparently Stormwhite ~150 years ago or so.
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I could point out that the difference here is that because the system you speak of isn't the literal world beneath our feet, we can actually tear it down without destroying ourselves, which isn't the case in nMage.

But instead I'll just point out that the world is still ruled by white dudes, and that's not looking likely to change any time soon.
 
Stormwhite said:
I could point out that the difference here is that because the system you speak of isn't the literal world beneath our feet, we can actually tear it down without destroying ourselves, which isn't the case in nMage.

But instead I'll just point out that the world is still ruled by white dudes, and that's not looking likely to change any time soon.
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And in the quest to change it, we've made a significantly better world in those respects.

I do think that Rjru is rather putting the cart before the horse, of course.
 
logiccosmic said:
nephandi who are the true masters of the true true exarchs
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ok what the hell are you talking about and what are your sources
The Laurent said:
And in the quest to change it, we've made a significantly better world in those respects.

I do think that Rjru is rather putting the cart before the horse, of course.
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sorry i just cant help but think of this qoute in regards to the seers all that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
or what i take from this Ghandi qoute, " be the change you wish to see in the world"
that making things better will not be easy but if you aren't willing to try then why would anyone else do it. The world was once a good place mostly and people were ok until the current exarchs weren't satisfied with all but ruling the world and decided to quite literally break into Heaven( all of them) and murder all the gods to claim their stuff, got challenged and were resisted so hard it broke the world. I just don't like how people overlook that the very rise exarchs mean that the people sitting on those god chairs arent all powerful and that they can die.
 
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Stormwhite said:
I could point out that the difference here is that because the system you speak of isn't the literal world beneath our feet, we can actually tear it down without destroying ourselves, which isn't the case in nMage.

But instead I'll just point out that the world is still ruled by white dudes, and that's not looking likely to change any time soon.
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*looks at Obama*
*tries to imagine African-American President 100 years ago*
We are not yet there, but we are better off than we were. "Not changing any time soon" is radically different from "impossible to change".

I mean, I think we, personally as protagonist, are not going to do some big change, but we can do our part.
I mean, we can also not, that's a fair decision too, but still. Giving up because the progress is hard and extremely slow is not obligatory.

And wrt real world...well. It's a metaphor for some things in real world, so it's a valid enough comparison IMO - and besides, tearing down chokehold of nobility on 15th century Europe would blow up it under their feet. And yet here we are. So. (edit:) So even "it would tear down the world" is not really an impediment in the long-term. It is one for any single individual, sure, but...
 
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ctulhuslp said:
Giving up because the progress is hard and extremely slow is not obligatory.

And wrt real world...well. It's a metaphor for some things in real world, so it's a valid enough comparison IMO - and besides, tearing down chokehold of nobility on 15th century Europe would blow up it under their feet. And yet here we are. So.
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Thank you those two sentances are great examples of small attempts at change creating an entirely new world through effort despite the old one being there for most of history.
 
Stormwhite said:
I could point out that the difference here is that because the system you speak of isn't the literal world beneath our feet, we can actually tear it down without destroying ourselves, which isn't the case in nMage.
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"Black people are innately stupid, lazy and if left without guidance will destroy civilized society"

^^ We can tear this down because it's, well, a lie. Treating black people as human beings have not and will not destroy civilization.

And the thing is, in nMage, the world beneath our feet is a Lie. So it's possible to tear it without destroying ourselves.

ctulhuslp said:
And wrt real world...well. It's a metaphor for some things in real world, so it's a valid enough comparison IMO - and besides, tearing down chokehold of nobility on 15th century Europe would blow up it under their feet. And yet here we are. So. (edit:) So even "it would tear down the world" is not really an impediment in the long-term. It is one for any single individual, sure, but...
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Indeed.

In nMage, the symbolic is more powerful that the real. There is no difference between revolution and the destruction of worlds.
 
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Rjrulew said:
Thank you those two sentances are great examples of small attempts at change creating an entirely new world through effort despite the old one being there for most of history.
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Well I mean M:tAw is a horror story too. So it may well be the case we die horribly or are brought by degrees to wield devils sword or whatever.
And even if we succeed, the results may well only start coming centuries after we are dead.
Or backfire.
Shit's hard yo.

Doesn't mean it's impossible...well, depending on the writer of the quest of course; it's entirely up to Maugan and Manus whether it's possible and to what degree. I don't want to presume tbh.
 
Broken25 said:
"Black people are innately stupid, lazy and if left without guidance will destroy civilized society"

^^ We can tear this down because it's, well, a lie. Treating black people as human beings have not and will not destroy civilization.

And the thing is, in nMage, the world beneath our feet is a Lie. So it's possible to tear it without destroying ourselves.
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thank you for helping the case of the exarchs and the lie not being absolute, just insanely difficult to undermine. im giving you hugs
 
Rjrulew said:
ok what the hell are you talking about and what are your sources
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you havent opened you're eyes to the truth behind the game that you must understand we can kill the gods if we just understand the truth by destroying gem as revealed in dreams of the first age we can then utilize our spirit key to overcome our threshold where we were killed by the gods who were jealous of our knowledge of the true true true masters of the universe;

the geists [1]

when we are no long the prey we can eat the gods psyche and gain it to our psyche to better utilize our powers to overthrow the seers who have been worshiping the wyrm and celebrating in the labyrinth. with the stillness key and stygian key [1] we have the ability to counter the seers by changing their powers to be unlike ours when they are not like ours. our manifestations of pit and boneyard [1] will change the game entirelly and we can vote and win to spirit nuke the gods a 100000x times over agian. [1]


ergo facto summus totalus, we can kill the gods



[1] Alexander, A. (2009). Geist: the Sin-Eaters. Stone Mountain, GA: White Wolf.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Well I mean M:tAw is a horror story too. So it may well be the case we die horribly or are brought by degrees to wield devils sword or whatever.
And even if we succeed, the results may well only start coming centuries after we are dead.
Or backfire.
Shit's hard yo.

Doesn't mean it's impossible...well, depending on the writer of the quest of course; it's entirely up to Maugan and Manus whether it's possible and to what degree. I don't want to presume tbh.
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I see this as a philosophy issue if something is deeply entrenched is it truly possibly to change it and also in the face of death is selling your soul to beings with power they had no right to steal any better then dieing while trying to make it better and choosing freedom.
 
Warning: And Locked
  • Staff Post
  • Staff Post
    • [X] A Museum; you are a guest here, wandering starstruckthrough halls lined with portraits and plaques. A hall ofstatues is being renovated while you watch, each stoneform replaced by one a tiny bit older, a tiny bit less refined. You can see the originals, you know, held for posterity in the archive, but that means asking the curator for permission, and his skinless face and cloak of greydiscomfort you in a way you cannot quite explain.

    [X] A Zoo; you walk between exhibits and around the edge of great enclosures, studying and being studied in turn. Here a horde of rats dig a warren in broken stone, there a flight of pigeons wheel back and forth between a hundred wooden aviaries. There are people all around you, cooing and laughing over the antics of those they came to observe, but they cannot see what you can. The horizon has sprouted bars, and from beyond giants with eyes of fire watch you with an inquisitive gaze.
     
    Just, uh, so i don't get infracted, is posting impassioned and heartfelt arguments for why the Silver Ladder is correct and the only possible choice is rebellion against the gods okay if i don't bring in ill-concidered parallels to real-world opression and suffering?
     
    I'm really looking forward to your interpretation of nmage London @Maugan Ra. Are you planning on having it London focussed or occasionally take trips out to the rest of the UK?
     
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