The whole reason behind the Woman of the beginning thing confuses me and convinces me that Sagara is either A) Views time differently, which is admittedly totally possible, or B) Talking bullshit.
He pretty much says to her "Thanks for showing me who the front runners were!"
But...The only reason Kouta even reached that point was because Sagara kept giving him powerups and pep talks. Hell, he'd have thrown in the towel if Sagara hadn't done the least subtle airing of Urobuchis "Break the rules of the world" mentality I saw in the whole show.
So really, if he's not Achronistic, then why did he back Kouta, because if he hadn't, then he wouldn't have gotten there, but he did, but because he was backed by Sagara, because....
Stable Time Loop. Because the WoTB went back and started Bewareing people, it blared out to Sagara who the frontrunners were. He kept an eye on them, giving them nudges as needed, until that resulted in the WoTB going back and Bewareing people.
The whole reason behind the Woman of the beginning thing confuses me and convinces me that Sagara is either A) Views time differently, which is admittedly totally possible, or B) Talking bullshit.
He pretty much says to her "Thanks for showing me who the front runners were!"
But...The only reason Kouta even reached that point was because Sagara kept giving him powerups and pep talks. Hell, he'd have thrown in the towel if Sagara hadn't done the least subtle airing of Urobuchis "Break the rules of the world" mentality I saw in the whole show.
So really, if he's not Achronistic, then why did he back Kouta, because if he hadn't, then he wouldn't have gotten there, but he did, but because he was backed by Sagara, because....
God I hate time travel. And want to punch Sagara in his smug SI face.
Stable Time Loop. Because the WoTB went back and started Bewareing people, it blared out to Sagara who the frontrunners were. He kept an eye on them, giving them nudges as needed, until that resulted in the WoTB going back and Bewareing people.
Now i just want to snap his stupid neck, futile as it may be.
Oh no. Im serious. That's blatant manipulation of a person, knowing they'll fail, but giving them hope so that they try anyway in order to perform an action that, in the end, only benefits you and you alone.
In short, it sounds like something Kyubey would do, only without some of the excuses.
What I'm interested in is how Mai's stable time loop interacts with Homura's unstable one.
Like Mai just appeared in a dream because madoka got a driver. But the original timeline? No way madoka got a driver this early. And I'm pretty sure Homura time looped before Mai does. If only because of what homura knows vs what Mai does. I think.
Now i just want to snap his stupid neck, futile as it may be.
Oh no. Im serious. That's blatant manipulation of a person, knowing they'll fail, but giving them hope so that they try anyway in order to perform an action that, in the end, only benefits you and you alone.
In short, it sounds like something Kyubey would do, only without some of the excuses.
Well ok that's a lie not everything you said was wrong, Sagara is blatantly manipulating people. But he isn't doing this knowing they'll fail and it isn't for his benefit. And now the rest of this goes into spoiler tags to give the PMMM people a chance of not being spoiled.
Sagara's entire reason for existence is to try and push the species he finds into evolving through one way or another as decided by whomsoever gets their hand on the Forbidden Fruit. He does not know that any given person he interacts with will fail, and in fact he wants at least one of them to succeed. Of course unless things go very interestingly he knows that only one ultimately can do so, but that doesn't mean he's setting the rest up to fail even if he thinks one has a better chance than others and acts on that belief.
Hell, despite Kouta being his favorite to win Kaito almost took the crown, and you better believe that Sagara would have been just as happy with that result as he was with the one we got in canon.
And also, he isn't the one benefiting from any of this. Sagara just exists to give a trial and encouragement to people who are facing the trial. The ones who benefit in the end are whomsoever claims the Forbidden Fruit and those they take under their banner.
And as for Kyuubey, well again you're wrong because Kyuubey isn't doing this to benefit just himself. He and his species certainly get a strong benefit out of it, but in their minds it is the same benefit the rest of the universe is getting. The universe continuing to exist.
I mean, you can definitely disagree with his methods, but at the end of the day Kyuubey is actually being highly altruistic with his actions.
That doesn't stop him totally deserving getting shot to bits though. Rebellion, while technically speaking being optimal, was optimal in a SV Plan sense: Didn't account for the suffering on people, and people having agency fucked the plan over.
That doesn't stop him totally deserving getting shot to bits though. Rebellion, while technically speaking being optimal, was optimal in a SV Plan sense: Didn't account for the suffering on people, and people having agency fucked the plan over.
I said he was an altruistic alien, not a good one. Personally I fully endorse what happened to him in Rebellion and will throw my glove down at anyone who argues he didn't have it coming.
I'm just saying that he isn't being selfish with his actions.
I said he was an altruistic alien, not a good one. Personally I fully endorse what happened to him in Rebellion and will throw my glove down at anyone who argues he didn't have it coming.
I'm just saying that he isn't being selfish with his actions.
Yeah, I agree with that, it's why I dislike his motives being redone to Actually Evil. I've maintained elsewhere that Kyubey would totally help [insert hero here] if it actually helps him, and he won't hinder them unless needed.
Sagara's entire reason for existence is to try and push the species he finds into evolving through one way or another as decided by whomsoever gets their hand on the Forbidden Fruit. He does not know that any given person he interacts with will fail, and in fact he wants at least one of them to succeed. Of course unless things go very interestingly he knows that only one ultimately can do so, but that doesn't mean he's setting the rest up to fail even if he thinks one has a better chance than others and acts on that belief.
Hell, despite Kouta being his favorite to win Kaito almost took the crown, and you better believe that Sagara would have been just as happy with that result as he was with the one we got in canon.
And also, he isn't the one benefiting from any of this. Sagara just exists to give a trial and encouragement to people who are facing the trial. The ones who benefit in the end are whomsoever claims the Forbidden Fruit and those they take under their banner.
Ok, when I said fail, I was referring to Mei time travelling specifically. Regardless of everything else in the series, the idea that he encouraged her to time travel purely so past him could find out the people to back, while knowing nothing she'd do would have an impact and wouldn't be able to stop the people she cared about from fighting
Now I admit, I could be remembering things wrong, but still,
And as for Sagara... I admit to Replying in an overly emotional and exaggerated fashion there, but I'll be blunt. I have never liked the guy, for reasons that go past his actions in the show.
Namely, I feel that he's... more of a plot point than a character in and of himself. I mean, besides feeling like an obvious author insert at times. To put it simply, sagara ends up directing the show in a way that encompasses the reasons Im not fond of Urobutchis writing.
Sagara's whole thing for me is that you can't have gaim without Sagara whether you like it or not. Whilst all the conflicts come from other people, Sagara is the one to precipitate the events that allow for the conflict to happen, but with a few exceptions, he never really does much directly. He always influences people so they're more likely to do certain actions. And that puts him in the annoying wheelhouse of not really doing much, but having enough of an effect that he effectively HAS to be there.
And that annoys me because it makes everything too clean. Too easily tied up, as though the events of the show are what HAVE to happen, and there was never really any doubt they'd differ. It's less strong in Gaim than in PMMM, but all the same, Gaims story feels very immutable, and that honestly made me at a few times remember I was watching a show.
Now this isn't to say Sagara ruins the show or that I hate gaim, but I don't enjoy it as much as many others, and many of the reasons I don't, I feel, Come from how everyone elses actions, in some form, are a result of those done by Sagara, given his whole "I AM the Forest!" thing.
So yeah, I'll admit to being utterly wrong about Sagara, but I still wish we didn't have him in the show. I know I'm awful at explaining this, but I'm not sure I really know how to describe what rubs me wrong about him properly.
Yeah, I agree with that, it's why I dislike his motives being redone to Actually Evil. I've maintained elsewhere that Kyubey would totally help [insert hero here] if it actually helps him, and he won't hinder them unless needed.
I disagree on Kyubey being Altruistic, mostly because The guy considers everything in a cost-Benefits form.
If the cost to him for helping you now does not outweigh the potential benefits of more Grief seeds/Whatever he uses after Madokami, then he'll do it as happily as can be done for something with no emotions. However, if he judges the costs as being too great, or the risk too much, he'll just drop you. It's not that he's "SUPER EVIL!" or anything, but for him, Countering entropy comes first.
For example, I absolutely believe Kyubey would care greatly about the lives of the girls under his care and would maybe even attempt a "Get down Mr President!" maneuver and risk his body to save them. After all, if they die on him, they wont turn into witches later and provide energy to prevent entropy.
Altruism is an action that incurs a cost to you for no direct benefit. For Kyubey, who thinks without emotion, This is an illogical idea. Kyubey helps you based on Mutual Benefit.
Ok, when I said fail, I was referring to Mei time travelling specifically. Regardless of everything else in the series, the idea that he encouraged her to time travel purely so past him could find out the people to back, while knowing nothing she'd do would have an impact and wouldn't be able to stop the people she cared about from fighting
Now I admit, I could be remembering things wrong, but still,
And as for Sagara... I admit to Replying in an overly emotional and exaggerated fashion there, but I'll be blunt. I have never liked the guy, for reasons that go past his actions in the show.
Namely, I feel that he's... more of a plot point than a character in and of himself. I mean, besides feeling like an obvious author insert at times. To put it simply, sagara ends up directing the show in a way that encompasses the reasons Im not fond of Urobutchis writing.
Sagara's whole thing for me is that you can't have gaim without Sagara whether you like it or not. Whilst all the conflicts come from other people, Sagara is the one to precipitate the events that allow for the conflict to happen, but with a few exceptions, he never really does much directly. He always influences people so they're more likely to do certain actions. And that puts him in the annoying wheelhouse of not really doing much, but having enough of an effect that he effectively HAS to be there.
And that annoys me because it makes everything too clean. Too easily tied up, as though the events of the show are what HAVE to happen, and there was never really any doubt they'd differ. It's less strong in Gaim than in PMMM, but all the same, Gaims story feels very immutable, and that honestly made me at a few times remember I was watching a show.
Now this isn't to say Sagara ruins the show or that I hate gaim, but I don't enjoy it as much as many others, and many of the reasons I don't, I feel, Come from how everyone elses actions, in some form, are a result of those done by Sagara, given his whole "I AM the Forest!" thing.
So yeah, I'll admit to being utterly wrong about Sagara, but I still wish we didn't have him in the show. I know I'm awful at explaining this, but I'm not sure I really know how to describe what rubs me wrong about him properly.
I disagree on Kyubey being Altruistic, mostly because The guy considers everything in a cost-Benefits form.
If the cost to him for helping you now does not outweigh the potential benefits of more Grief seeds/Whatever he uses after Madokami, then he'll do it as happily as can be done for something with no emotions. However, if he judges the costs as being too great, or the risk too much, he'll just drop you. It's not that he's "SUPER EVIL!" or anything, but for him, Countering entropy comes first.
For example, I absolutely believe Kyubey would care greatly about the lives of the girls under his care and would maybe even attempt a "Get down Mr President!" maneuver and risk his body to save them. After all, if they die on him, they wont turn into witches later and provide energy to prevent entropy.
Altruism is an action that incurs a cost to you for no direct benefit. For Kyubey, who thinks without emotion, This is an illogical idea. Kyubey helps you based on Mutual Benefit.
I think I understand you're reasoning is that you dislike how Sagara is kind of more of a plot device than a character in his own way since he only acts to make others act, never really on his own and yet you need to keep him around because he is the plot device the story revolves around.
If I understand you right I think I can see your point, and to that all I would really say is that the interesting thing there is to use Sagara as a proper devil's advocate when having him interact with the other characters. Have him be the one who makes them look at their ideals and decisions both good and bad from different angles and forces them to consider things in a way that they wouldn't have before.
As for keeping things the same... yea no. Sagara is just going to put the fruit there and give people a reason to want to find it. Beyond that he's not going to do anything to makes sure that they approach things like it went down in Gaim because he doesn't care how his challengers grow, just that they do.
And actually Altruism is just acting for the benefit of others, not for no benefit at all. I'm honestly not sure there is a word for insuring a cost for no benefit to anyone, maybe masochism?
Anyway, while Kyuubey does also benefit he is acting for the sake of every life there is an never will be. And for the sake of that he acts according to Utilitarian principles and well... as horrible as it sounds, and it is horrible don't get me wrong, in terms of numbers he has a very strong argument.
If it is a question of a handful of people suffering or all people dying forever, which is the right answer?
And actually Altruism is just acting for the benefit of others, not for no benefit at all. I'm honestly not sure there is a word for insuring a cost for no benefit to anyone, maybe masochism?
While a cost is incurred for you, its to the benefit of another, you just don't personally get anything from it. If you do gain some kind of personal benefit out of it, than it's mutualism, not Altruism.
This may also be affected by me studying Biology and animal Behaviour
The thing is, if they stop, does it instantly go to all people dying forever? Of does the universe just slowly die over trillions of years?
Because the only evidence that the former might be a thing is there still being magical girls when Madoka does her wish, but that might be because her wish focused on Witches, not the existence of Magical Girls.
Honestly, we don't know enough to be able to make an accurate judgment on Kyubey
While a cost is incurred for you, its to the benefit of another, you just don't personally get anything from it. If you do gain some kind of personal benefit out of it, than it's mutualism, not Altruism.
This may also be affected by me studying Biology and animal Behaviour
I haven't heard of mutualism before so I'll concede that we might be using different backgrounds and thus definitions for the same word and are as such talking past one another.
The thing is, if they stop, does it instantly go to all people dying forever? Of does the universe just slowly die over trillions of years?
Because the only evidence that the former might be a thing is there still being magical girls when Madoka does her wish, but that might be because her wish focused on Witches, not the existence of Magical Girls.
Honestly, we don't know enough to be able to make an accurate judgment on Kyubey
I would suspect it is an overtime thing because of the inertia of the incubator's plans. With how efficiency obsessed they are I would say it is logical to conclude that they're actively trying to avoid a situation like Cabin in the Woods were they need everything to go perfect right now or everything will fall apart and end.
Kyuubey also specifically notes in the end and Rebellion stories that the Magical Girl system is still being used to fight grief, and even as a goddess Madoka gave no indication that the incubators were wrong or lying about the necessity of the Magical Girl system. She just disagreed with the extent to which they prioritized results over the well being of the girls in the system.
As such we can believe trust that Kyuubey continues to have no evidence that its statement about not lying is a lie in of itself and can assume that his words are the truth when he described the reasons for the system.
I haven't heard of mutualism before so I'll concede that we might be using different backgrounds and thus definitions for the same word and are as such talking past one another.
I would suspect it is an overtime thing because of the inertia of the incubator's plans. With how efficiency obsessed they are I would say it is logical to conclude that they're actively trying to avoid a situation like Cabin in the Woods were they need everything to go perfect right now or everything will fall apart and end.
Kyuubey also specifically notes in the end and Rebellion stories that the Magical Girl system is still being used to fight grief, and even as a goddess Madoka gave no indication that the incubators were wrong or lying about the necessity of the Magical Girl system. She just disagreed with the extent to which they prioritized results over the well being of the girls in the system.
As such we can believe trust that Kyuubey continues to have no evidence that its statement about not lying is a lie in of itself and can assume that his words are the truth when he described the reasons for the system.
In the interests of avoiding a ten page Morality debate and to flip the bird at OOW, While I don't entirely agree with your analysis, I'll agree to stop here before we suck all the fun out of the quest and fulfill Chrons dreams of making everyone run on pure spite.
Beware. The path you are treading is one of sorrow. Fighting until the bitter end, you shall find only a cruel conclusion. But you can still turn from that path. Understand the route you take, and let history play out.
