Puella Magi Imperatrix Mundi, or: Wherein Half Of Japan Tries To Kill You

[Noumero]

Do we have to make one single definitive counteroffer, or could we run both the full annexation and the mercenaries on loan plans by Maiko and her, and get their comments?

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I don't see why not the latter. We're not really negotiating with another team, after all, we're making a backroom deal.
Logistics of covertly discussing it with Maiko without leaving the conversation with Konno would be a bit tricky, but it's nothing impossible.

 

[Archeo Lumiere]

Yeah, I agree that we also need a way to work around Konno's power play. Maybe it's as simple as refusing to let her bring any proposal back to Furuhata and instead insisting that she return with Furuhata so we can deal directly. Or else no deal at all.

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Furuhata and Oshigiri, we want someone around as well who both isn't a doormat and who isn't a chronic backstabber.

 

[Hestia&theCourt]

Ah, but they've complained that Chizuka uses up an extra large share of Grief Seeds, and we haven't heard such complaints about Naoko. Plus, they've got twin conceptually sharp sword users (the users aren't twins, the swords are).

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True, but Chizuka commands a lot more space since she can deal massive damage at range. At close range, yeah, twin conceptual slicing swords is superior, but do they have anything near that at range?

I think it's a solid opening. I think we need to include some directives on what we're trying to get out of her and what information we're willing to reveal Yui has (just so Echo as something to write about).

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I'm glad you think so, but, um, my mind is currently blank, so feel free to suggest wording. Besides, you're better than me at that anyway.

 

[PhDEevee]

Hmm. Here's a draft vote then, to get the ball rolling on votes.

[X] You are aware of how delicate her group's situation is, in fact. As you are of her tendency to make deals her teammates don't know about.
[X] You're happy to broker a deal with her group similar to what she suggested, but you know perfectly well that if you make a deal with her now, she'll use it in a dumb political power play.
[X] You'll need some assurances, or she'll need to get Furuhata to come to the table herself.

 

[Nervos Belli]

Hmm. Here's a draft vote then, to get the ball rolling on votes.

[X] You are aware of how delicate her group's situation is, in fact. As you are of her tendency to make deals her teammates don't know about.
[X] You're happy to broker a deal with her group similar to what she suggested, but you know perfectly well that if you make a deal with her now, she'll use it in a dumb political power play.
[X] You'll need some assurances, or she'll need to get Furuhata to come to the table herself.

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A good start, but I think it could use some details on what deal we actually want to make. I'm still in favor of a land loan, but I haven't gotten much feedback one way or another on that idea.

 

[Noumero]

Tentative vote:

[x] Ask Maiko how trustworthy we could expect Konno to be. If we got her transferred to us and put her in a high-ranking planner position, how worried would we need to be about her backstabbing us? Would she have any issues with Maiko in particular?
[x] At the same time, stall for time in a productive way:
-[x] Ask Konno to clarify about this situation with Chizuka and Miyu if she thinks it's unobvious.
-[x] Ask Konno about Furuhata's group's exact situation. Are their main problems a lack of Grief Seeds, hostile neighbours, or both?
[x] If Maiko doesn't think we can't work with Konno, propose the following:
-[x] Konno and Tsurumi Ninomiya are transferred to our group on permanent basis, Konno is offered a senior planning position. In exchange, we pay Furuhata's group a set amount of Grief Seeds each week for a few months. Ask her if it would be at all possible to get Furuhata to agree to this.
-[x] Do away with any pretenses: we're perfectly aware that we're making a backroom deal, and we're perfectly aware of Konno's true magic.
-[x] If asked what's in it for Konno herself, note that your group is large enough to put her well away from direct fights, and is only expected to grow.
[x] If Maiko doesn't think we can work with Konno, or if the abovementioned plan is made unviable otherwise:
-[x] Ask Konno what arrangement of "loaned" magical girls she would prefer.
-[x] Ask Maiko what she thinks is the preferable course of actions.

 

[SynchronizedWritersBlock]

Furuhata and Oshigiri, we want someone around as well who both isn't a doormat and who isn't a chronic backstabber.

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No, we don't want Oshigiri here. She compromises Furuhata's judgment, in addition to apparently being an asshole. She's the one who might have sent Chizuka after us, wasn't she? I would suggest we refuse to deal if she shows up.

 

[Hestia&theCourt]

Hmm. Here's a draft vote then, to get the ball rolling on votes.

[X] You are aware of how delicate her group's situation is, in fact. As you are of her tendency to make deals her teammates don't know about.
[X] You're happy to broker a deal with her group similar to what she suggested, but you know perfectly well that if you make a deal with her now, she'll use it in a dumb political power play.
[X] You'll need some assurances, or she'll need to get Furuhata to come to the table herself.

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Tentative vote:

[x] Ask Maiko how trustworthy we could expect Konno to be. If we poached her and put her in a high-ranking planner position, how worried would we need to be about her backstabbing us? Would she have any issues with Maiko in particular?
[x] At the same time, stall for time in a productive way:
-[x] Ask Konno to clarify about this situation with Chizuka and Miyu if it's so unobvious.
-[x] Ask Konno about Furuhata's group's exact situation. Are their main problems a lack of Grief Seeds, hostile neighbours, or both?
[x] If Maiko doesn't think we can't work with Konno, propose the following:
-[x] Konno and Tsurumi Ninomiya are transferred to our group on permanent basis, Konno is offered a senior planning position. In exchange, we pay Furuhata's group a set amount of Grief Seeds each week for a few months. Ask her if it would be at all possible to get her and Furuhata to agree to this.
-[x] Do away with any pretenses: we're perfectly aware that we're making a backroom deal, and we're perfectly aware of Konno's true magic.
[x] If Maiko doesn't think we can work with Konno, or if the abovementioned plan is made unviable otherwise:
-[x] Ask Konno what arrangement of "loaned" magical girls she would prefer.
-[x] Ask Maiko what she thinks is the preferable course of actions.

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Hmm. My brain's started working again, and while I like some parts of your votes, I feel like it doesn't quite capture what I'm looking for. So...

[X] Probe Konno's intentions. If we help her with this, she'll likely wind up in charge of the group in a matter of months. It's important to know whether we'll be able to work with her without worrying about her backstabbing us.
-[X] Okay, let's back up a bit here. This is obviously a power play on your part, since you're going behind Furuhata's back as a first resort. And it's not like this is the first time you've made arrangements with meguca without your allies knowing about it. So, since you know we know this, how do you expect us to trust you as a reliable ally?
--[X] If it moves the conversation forward and gets us information, don't hesitate to let Konno know about the following:
---[X] We have outside sources of information.
---[X] We have enough power that, in conjunction with the information, we're more worried about stabilizing Nagamioka than we are about dying.
---[X] Similarly, our attempts are for stabilizing. We want all the meguca in and around Nagamioka to be more worried about Witches than they are about other meguca.
---[X] We know what Konno's wish magic is, and between that and her actions in the past, don't yet know if we can trust her to not screw us over in the future.
--[X] Do not reveal the following under any circumstances:
---[X] Maiko.
---[X] Our own wish magic.
---[X] Minami's existence.
-[X] If it fits in the conversation, ask Konno to clarify about this situation with Chizuka and Miyu if it's so unobvious. Our understanding is that while the situation isn't ideal, it's not yet about to reach a boiling point.

 

[Noumero]

[X] We know what Konno's wish magic is, and between that and her actions in the past, don't yet know if we can trust her to not screw us over in the future.

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Hm, I'm not sure what's your intent here. Do you want to see how Konno would justify herself, or actually receive an answer? If the former, I'm pretty sure Konno would just describe her current cost/benefit estimates, what incentives she has to work for/against us — most of that we either already know or can work out, and isn't really helpful. If the latter, she isn't a reliable source of information about herself, and asking Maiko about her assessment would be better.

 

[Hestia&theCourt]

Hm, I'm not sure what's your intent here. Do you want to see how Konno would justify herself, or actually receive an answer? If the former, I'm pretty sure Konno would just describe her current cost/benefit estimates, what incentives she has to work for/against us — most of that we either already know or can work out, and isn't really helpful. If the latter, she isn't a reliable source of information about herself, and asking Maiko about her assessment would be better.

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Mostly the former, but I feel like Maiko's spookybook tells us data but doesn't tell us much about the person. The way she reacts to that will tell us more, I think, than spookybook alone.

Of course, I'm open to debate on this point, but I also feel like the conversation has the potential to go around in circles if we don't have something major to break through conversational roundabouts.

 

[Echo]

Well, I'm not that fond of these people, so.... I don't care that much, but my guess is that their little Tattletale-lite can apply psychological leverage to ensure she can't dictate things as much as she'd like.

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I don't know who Tattletale is, except that maybe a character in Worm, but yeah. The only way I see it working is for Konno to exploit Naoko's issues with dependency on others, and it makes it all kinds of fucked up choice.

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Furuhata is the perfect target for Naoko's "you need me, so deal with it" routine, Oshigiri would loathe having Naoko near Furuhata and thus be easily baited into giving Naoko the negative attention she seeks, and since Naoko's personality is made entirely of psychological defense mechanisms she'd be pretty much an open book to Konno's magic.

It's really the combination of those three that would make it work. Probably not practical right now, for a whole host of reasons.

Question: Do we have to make one single definitive counteroffer, or could we run both the full annexation and the mercenaries on loan plans by Maiko and her, and get their comments?

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I don't see why not. Just be aware that asking questions and nothing else may lead to a short update if people don't have much to say.

True, but Chizuka commands a lot more space since she can deal massive damage at range. At close range, yeah, twin conceptual slicing swords is superior, but do they have anything near that at range?

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The twin swords is Konno, BTW, and hers are nothing special. Oshigiri's weapon is a fuck-huge anime sword longer than Yui is tall.

Anyway--Tamazaki, Furuhata, and Oshigiri together can outdo Chizuka for damage, but with more work and more magic. (Chizuka has a higher baseline rate of magic use, but it's nearly constant--flinging metal around however she likes costs nothing.)

No, we don't want Oshigiri here. She compromises Furuhata's judgment, in addition to apparently being an asshole. She's the one who might have sent Chizuka after us, wasn't she? I would suggest we refuse to deal if she shows up.

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Furuhata's judgment is only really compromised when it comes to acknowledging that yes, Oshigiri is kind of an asshole. Otherwise she's fine, aside from the fact that she won't want to talk to Yui.

Also yeah, Chizuka's little excursion was prompted in large part by Oshigiri.

 

[Tallamee]

A good start, but I think it could use some details on what deal we actually want to make. I'm still in favor of a land loan, but I haven't gotten much feedback one way or another on that idea.

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I am with you. I think that we should make the agreement as a lease of territory with a defined end point at which both parties can renegotiate terms once we have a better understanding of what we are working with. Call it a month for now, and plan to extend the duration in future negotiations along with other refinements of terms and conditions.

So, I also feel that we should not get ahead of ourselves. Let's try and get something serviceable for now. We know that Konno is making a power play, and at this juncture I fail to see how this is a problem. Konno is open to negotiations, decently informed of outside matters, and Furuhata is not open to negotiations. Certainly Konno is manipulative, but we are aware of how she does what she does.

This is an opening act. Make this deal and be fair. Next time there is a deal on the table this is our reputation, both with this group and others. If this works out we could move for further arrangements to drag Furuhata's group in slowly. Maybe in a month we offer them access to parts of our intel and logistics system. We could offer to collaborate with magical item crafting. Start small, and build our way up.

[X]This arrangement seems loosely amenable so far, so lets get down to the brass tacks of the agreement.
-[X]Konno knows we are an Aikawa, so we should demonstrate that. Tell her that we will lease the territory for some agreed upon time with a few conditions, for now with a more open ended agreement for after the first lease ends
--[X]The duration of the initial lease should be for no more than 2 months for now, and no less than 2 weeks
-[X]Start negotiations at 50/50 split of GS collected, but be willing to move as far as 40/60 of the GS collected, in their favor.
--[X]if pressed argue that Witches are especially abundant presently, and that the relatively short duration of the lease will allow for renegotiation of terms as the situation changes with more simplicity
-[X]Yui's group must be notified of all magical girls that enter or are in the lease territory, and a member of Yui's group must be present for any meetings with such magical girls. Our fluffy Mephistopheles is currently on a recruiting spree through Nagamioka, and we want to prevent any unfortunate accidents.

That is what I have for now. Remember Fuuka's look when we broke out the maps and plans? Lets make an impression.

 

[Nevill]

-[X] Okay, let's back up a bit here. This is obviously a power play on your part, since you're going behind Furuhata's back as a first resort. And it's not like this is the first time you've made arrangements with meguca without your allies knowing about it. So, since you know we know this, how do you expect us to trust you as a reliable ally?

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I do not understand. Why is coming to us leveled as an accusation at her? I hear her being called all sorts of names, starting with a 'chronic backstabber'. But... consider the situation. The group is crumbling, and the leadership is unable to mitigate the problem (and vice-leadership is sometimes making it worse). A wild outsider appears with an offer of friendship and cookies, and is immediately turned around out of distrust. A golden opportunity to improve the lot of the group, and it slips away out of stubborness, preconceptions, or whatever is Furuhata's deal.

What should have been the first resort of a person who probably knows Furuhata like the back of her palm?

I get it, she watches out for herself first, and for the group only so far as it benefits her - as she is a part of it still, - but it is undeniable that her proposal solves at least one of the group's problems. Is being ruthless while producing positive results somehow worse than being well-meaning and ineffectual? It would be one thing if she meant to sell her group out to their neighbours, but so far there have been no indications she intends something else other than take the lead. In fact, I would rather question her plans and intentions rather than throw vague accusations of things that may not even be true.

And yes, the answer to the last question is 'you can do well for yourself, that's how you can trust me to stay on board'. If she feels that you are sinking and intend to drag her down with you, she will either jump ships or usurp yours. If you shamed her for it, she would probably get a cramp trying to facepalm and shrug simultaneously.

--[X]The duration of the initial lease should be for no more than 2 months for now, and no less than 2 weeks

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That would be giving her a better offer than she herself asks for.

Instead of giving a minimum duration for a lease, why not leave it open, and make our cooperation dependent on what she does with her diplomatical success (as she does intend to use this somehow as a bargaining chip)? Just a little ensurance that what she does would actually help the group and not leave it in shambles.

 

[Tallamee]

That would be giving her a better offer than she herself asks for.

Instead of giving a minimum duration for a lease, why not leave it open, and make our cooperation dependent on what she does with her diplomatical success (as she does intend to use this somehow as a bargaining chip)? Just a little ensurance that what she does would actually help the group and not leave it in shambles.

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That is not a minimum duration, that is a range for the initial maximum duration of the lease. Two weeks is the minimum amount of time that should go by before we renegotiate the terms. This is so that we do not have to keep negotiating minutia all the time. Implicit in any contract is that violation of any of the terms renders the contract void (in this case terminating the lease), but that could be amended into my vote if you absolutely feel it is not sufficiently obvious.

 

[Nevill]

But... what are the terms of the contract? As in, what do we consider reason enough to annul it? Obvious stuff like breaking the rules we established for our city aside.

I don't need the obvious pointed out, but I do not consider this part trivial. Does anything that happens in their territory concern us if the lease is in effect?

 

[Hestia&theCourt]

Is being ruthless while producing positive results somehow worse than being well-meaning and ineffectual?

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Yes. Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes. People can be trained in effectiveness, but you can never trust the ruthless to be on board with idealism forever.

Plus, Maiko said it herself in the update: if we take this deal, we are indirectly complicit in the same kind of backstabbing nonsense that gave us the Naoko headache. This is not acceptable to me.

 

[Nevill]

People can be trained in effectiveness, but you can never trust the ruthless to be on board with idealism forever.

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I have a hunch that people they train their effectiveness on might be less appreciative of them.

Anyway, what do you suppose Maiko meant by that? What is your estimate of the situation, and the events it might lead to?

Simply namedropping Naoko and Kaede isn't enough if you don't tell what is similar between the two cases. What exactly should we watch out for?

 

[Nervos Belli]

[X]This arrangement seems loosely amenable so far, so lets get down to the brass tacks of the agreement.
-[X]Konno knows we are an Aikawa, so we should demonstrate that. Tell her that we will lease the territory for some agreed upon time with a few conditions, for now with a more open ended agreement for after the first lease ends
--[X]The duration of the initial lease should be for no more than 2 months for now, and no less than 2 weeks
-[X]Start negotiations at 50/50 split of GS collected, but be willing to move as far as 40/60 of the GS collected, in their favor.
--[X]if pressed argue that Witches are especially abundant presently, and that the relatively short duration of the lease will allow for renegotiation of terms as the situation changes with more simplicity
-[X]Yui's group must be notified of all magical girls that enter or are in the lease territory, and a member of Yui's group must be present for any meetings with such magical girls. Our fluffy Mephistopheles is currently on a recruiting spree through Nagamioka, and we want to prevent any unfortunate accidents.
-[X]quietly set Maiko, and possibly Yumi, on determining what chunk of territory to lease out, while we sort out the rest of the details

I like.

 

[Hestia&theCourt]

I have a hunch that people they train their effectiveness on might be less appreciative of them.

Anyway, what do you suppose Maiko meant by that? What is your estimate of the situation, and the events it might lead to?

Simply namedropping Naoko and Kaede isn't enough if you don't tell what is similar between the two cases. What exactly should we watch out for?

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The reason that we had to deal with Kaede and Naoko at all was because of a series of complicated backstabbings and vicious politics. This proposal is complicated backstabbings and vicious politics on their end; even if these backstabbings help the group survive, it fosters ill will among the group and makes us indirectly complicit in whatever messes result from that later.

 

[Nevill]

True, to an extent... even though the kind of backstabbing and conflict that was going in the Itabashi ward was an intergroup one (with the invasions and murders par the course), and this one is intragroup. While Furuhata can not be exiled without endangering the group, she could be 'peacefully' shifted away from her current position.

It does foster ill will between the team, it makes Furuhata convinced she was right in her decision to stay the hell away from outsiders, and I simply fear for Oshigiri's safety once the only person who likes her around is no longer in charge. As for the rest of them, I have not the slightest clue how they'd take it.

This is why I am not thrilled with proceeding as offered without learning more about Konno's plans for the group, and giving ourselves some measure of control over what happens there.

What sort of possible resolution do you see, then? I notice that your active vote is to probe Konno's intentions, which coincides with my own intentions - if only I am far less antagonistic towards Konno's character, - but I don't know what possible actions you may want to take once you find out. I also do not know what you want to get out of her.

[X] Probe Konno's intentions. If we help her with this, she'll likely wind up in charge of the group in a matter of months. It's important to know whether we'll be able to work with her without worrying about her backstabbing us.

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I mean, if you don't have to worry about her backstabbing her - and I don't think we do, what is even the point? - then are you okay with greenlighting whatever she is planning? Your last posts make me think you are objecting to her line of thinking on principle...

I suppose... we can take this deal, and throw it at Furuhata, depriving Konno of the credit that comes with it. Would that be any better, though?

 

[ShadowAngelBeta]

From my reading of it so far, Crimson has the single largest point concerning any vote on this matter.

If we strike a deal here and now, with Konno, about "Leasing" some territory to them while they remain a single group we become complicit in their internal politics. If she was splitting and making her own group, or speaking for someone who was, then that would be another story. As long as it wasn't a violent splitting at least.

We would be, very much literally, inviting their problems into our city.

Like what happened with Yumi in a sense. Although that also involved three girls invading our territory already and getting ready to kill a local girl along with Yumi, so... Details were different as well.

After that is decided on and/or resolved is where all the analysis posts over the last few pages come into play.

On Konno in particular... It says she had enlightened self-interest, but her power means she sees the weaknesses in everything. Unless she's been able to figure out how to look at it backwards to see the strengths in things or at least is able to evaluate a "Well, this is as good as it gets I guess" on some level when looking at a group then she's going to be inherently toxic with no method of getting around that short of her rejecting her Wish.

 

[Hestia&theCourt]

I don't know what possible actions you may want to take once you find out.

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I don't know. That's why I want more data. And wait, you have a "probe intentions" vote? I didn't see that... I'll go look for it. Once I've read it, I can evaluate whether your vote is better than mine.

I mean, if you don't have to worry about her backstabbing her - and I don't think we do, what is even the point? - then are you okay with greenlighting whatever she is planning? Your last posts make me think you are objecting to her line of thinking on principle...

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I have two problems with making a deal with Konno: the possibility of her backstabbing us (which seems unlikely based on Word of Echo, but Yui doesn't know that yet), and being complicit in Konno backstabbing someone else. If we can find a path of action that doesn't have us enabling backstabbing behavior, I'll accept that.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I dismissed your vote earlier because you had us recruiting Konno and I was pretty firmly against it at the time. Hmm. I might still be against it. Lemme think about it and get back to you.

EDIT EDIT: Also, your vote doesn't actually do much to help Chizuka, which was our main motivation here in the first place. Is there a reason you went with the other girl instead of Chizuka?

 

[Nevill]

And wait, you have a "probe intentions" vote?

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No, I don't. I meant, 'which coincides with mine [intentions]'. Sorry if it wasn't clear.
It's what I intend to do, though, and I'd like us to come to a decision to move the story along.
Forget what she may want to do - what would we want her to do?

If we strike a deal here and now, with Konno, about "Leasing" some territory to them while they remain a single group we become complicit in their internal politics.

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Wasn't that kind of thing inevitable the moment we promised to help if they needed it?
It isn't just Konno... any kind of intervention runs afoul of Furuhata who wants us minding our own business and staying away from hers.

 

[PhDEevee]

It might be worth expressing some symoathy about the difficult position that Konno has been placed, while also noting that the kind of behaviour she's engaging in tends to tear apart groups violently.

Hence why I wanted to ask for assurances. We don't want to get a reputation for undermining other groups unless we have to.

I do like the idea of expressing the fact that Yui isn't so much looking for something that will help her survive so much as the fact that she wants Furuhata's group to not murder each other violently or need to go into Nagamioka for Seeds.

SWB's stated plan for Chizuka and co sounds nice, the issue there is how to do it without prompting the group's collapse.

 

[PhDEevee]

Double post, sorry. Rephrasing previous thing to sound nicer.

[X] You know what position her group is in perfectly, in fact. You're sympathetic - being short of Grief Seeds and stuck in the middle of an imploding group must suck.
[X] The thing is, though, that despite the fact that you're well aware of her reasons for going behind her group leader's back this time, this isn't the first time. And this kind of behaviour tends to tear apart groups violently.
[X] You're perfectly willing to make a similar deal to the one she suggested (though perhaps less tied to the territory itself), with her group, but not at the cost of bringing bullshit Tokyo politics into it. That's counterproductive to the stability you're trying to build, within Nagamioka and without.
[X] Does she have any way of addressing your concerns?