Puella Magi Imperatrix Mundi, or: Wherein Half Of Japan Tries To Kill You

Echo · Aug 11, 2016

LightMage said:
Because people simply decide to do it, and write it off as a whim or rationalize "why". So if the majority rationalize "why" into some reason not to kill other Puella, then even if it wears off, they'll still not think about killing other Puella. And if it becomes a major Puella-Cultural phenomenon, it'll be self-sustaining and thus reinforce itself. Meaning we'd make being a Magical Girl much safer.

Ah, to clarify, the rationalization is just the typical response because that's how the human brain actually works in many cases; someone has the sense of doing something deliberately, assumes they had a reason, so their brain constructs a plausible one when asked.

If an action is sufficiently outside the limits of what the target would do, or the target is trained to recognize mind-altering effects, they will realize what's going on. They won't be able to break the compulsion, but they'll be aware of it.

Vebyast said:
Order magical girls to witch out

Order uncontracted girls to make wishes

Order people to obey orders from {other people} as if those orders came from Shinobu

Order someone to execute a godel sentence

Order Kyubey around (!!!)

Two of those won't work at all; the other three are possible, within certain limits.

argentorum · Aug 11, 2016

[x] Tell her that you've pretty much guessed that her power has something to with talking, which is why she's trying to be so careful.
-[x] Tell her that you're in a similar position; that one of the things your power did was to make you strong enough to crush concrete. Just by walking.
-[x] But the thing with stuff like that is if you try to avoid it, it makes it worse. If you'd been forced to defend yourself against someone, you might have killed them by accident if you hadn't known the full extent of your strength.
-[x] The only thing to do about that is to practise. Then you (and she) can learn to control your powers, and not accidentally hurt anyone.
[x] Don't push it - just ask her to think about it. You don't want her to end up like one of those lonely anime characters who hides themselves away from others because they're too strong, after all.
[x] See how Natsuki and Asami are doing.
- [x] Brainmail Asami first; Natsuki will Have Questions For You and you need to keep your stories consistent.

I'm here to make a bandwagon.

Balduran · Aug 11, 2016

Vebyast said:
Order Kyubey around (!!!)

This sounds interesting, but depending on what a "compulsion" is Kyubey might be immune due to his lack of emotions, or freak out (maybe disconnect from hivemind?) due to having an emotion introduced into his otherwise emotionless consciousness. Either way, sounds like fun science!

Vebyast · Aug 11, 2016

I'm not sure if @SystemicHatter's vote is actually that rough; it seems solid to me. On principle, let's see if this benefits from random tweaking.

[x] Tell her that you've pretty much guessed that her power has something to with talking, which is why she's trying to be so careful.
-[x] Tell her that you're in a similar position; your power made you strong enough to crush concrete. Just by walking. Just by tripping.
-[x] The thing is, avoiding stuff like that just makes it worse. For you, not knowing your own strength would've ended in catastrophe - if you'd high-fived or hugged someone without knowing, or worse yet, had to defend yourself...
-[x] The only thing to do is to practice and learn. You did that and now you have your power under control. You think that she can do the same. She's already getting somewhere.
[x] Don't push it - just ask her to think about it. You don't want her to end up like one of those lonely anime characters who hides themselves away from others because they're too strong, after all.
[x] See how Natsuki and Asami are doing.
-[x] Brainmail Asami first; Natsuki will Have Questions For You and you need to keep your stories consistent.

...Maybe? I don't know if there was anything subtle in there that I might have missed. I don't see much of a benefit except from generally smoothing the speech out.

Balduran · Aug 11, 2016

About the current votes out there, we kind of have talking to Koharu in abeyance? I think it's a good idea to follow through with that, but I don't know if we have to vote again this time to make it happen, or if it'll just happen anyway since we voted for it before... @Echo ?

Echo · Aug 11, 2016

Balduran said:
This sounds interesting, but depending on what a "compulsion" is Kyubey might be immune due to his lack of emotions, or freak out (maybe disconnect from hivemind?) due to having an emotion introduced into his otherwise emotionless consciousness. Either way, sounds like fun science!

Shinobu's commands don't have mind-altering side effects. Whether she can explicitly force someone to experience an emotion or change their personality or anything like is another matter; she hasn't tried and doesn't want to find out.

Balduran said:
About the current votes out there, we kind of have talking to Koharu in abeyance? I think it's a good idea to follow through with that, but I don't know if we have to vote again this time to make it happen, or if it'll just happen anyway since we voted for it before... @Echo ?

I'll slip in a short conversation checking in with Koharu where appropriate, unless you explicitly vote to do other things or vote for talking to her about something in particular. Your schedule is starting to look a little crowded today between catching up with Natsuki and Chou's demand for a face-to-face meeting, so I dunno about the "hey why don't I stop by your house" part.

PhDEevee · Aug 11, 2016

[X] Vebyast

Happy with @Vebyast's changes.

DarkLight140 · Aug 11, 2016

Echo said:
Meh, still not entirely happy with a lot of this but I guess it's good enough. Some stuff just isn't flowing as naturally post-hiatus... I guess this might be a good time to do a full re-read so it's all fresh in mind again?

Hey, I liked it. Yui, saying the terrible jokes that I scripted for her in between plot advancements? What more could anyone want in an update than that?

Echo · Aug 11, 2016

DarkLight140 said:
Hey, I liked it. Yui, saying the terrible jokes that I scripted for her in between plot advancements? What more could anyone want in an update than that?

Heh. I actually wanted to use even more of your phrasing directly but balancing Yui's dialogue vs. reactions from the others vs. internal monologue meant I had to split things up awkwardly.

At any rate, you seem to have a pretty good feel for Yui thinking Yui things.

Agent Whiskers · Aug 11, 2016

I have question. Has you guys actually told Maiko what Yui's wish was? Because that's an important piece of information.

Muramasa · Aug 12, 2016

I think I like Hatters original vote better.

I also kinda want to avoid going overboard on the speeches.

[x] Tell her that you've pretty much guessed that her power has something to with talking, which is why she's trying to be so careful.
-[x] Tell her that you're in a similar position; that one of the things your power did was to make you strong enough to crush concrete. Just by walking.
-[x] But the thing with stuff like that is if you try to avoid it, it makes it worse. If you'd been forced to defend yourself against someone, you might have killed them by accident if you hadn't known the full extent of your strength.
-[x] The only thing to do about that is to practise. Then you (and she) can learn to control your powers, and not accidentally hurt anyone.
[x] Don't push it - just ask her to think about it. You don't want her to end up like one of those lonely anime characters who hides themselves away from others because they're too strong, after all.
[x] See how Natsuki and Asami are doing.
- [x] Brainmail Asami first; Natsuki will Have Questions For You and you need to keep your stories consistent.

Vebyast · Aug 12, 2016

Agent Whiskers said:
I have question. Has you guys actually told Maiko what Yui's wish was? Because that's an important piece of information.

Echo said:
"The way I see it is that I need three things," you say, interrupting Yumi's thoughts. "First is enough allies," you say, counting off on your fingers, "which will be easy because of how friendly and lovable I am, and also is why I am recruiting so aggressively. Second is a better understanding of the problem, which is where having level-headed, experienced magical girls on my team would be super helpful. Hint, hint. Third is being strong enough that I won't ever have to compromise on my ideals, and I already have that."

Yumi looks skeptical. "Why are you so certain that you--" she begins, then stops and raises her eyebrows. "That was what you wished for, wasn't it."

Wait, seriously? Maiko says.

You giggle impishly. "Yep!"

I think that we did, yes.
(for reference, the wish itself:

Echo said:
"Yes," you say, and take a deep breath. You close your eyes, letting the feelings from deep in your heart come forth. You recall everything you've thought about tonight, and imagine the magical girl you want to be. A hero. A protector. A savior. You concentrate and the words fall away, leaving just the pure shining concept of what you want to be, if you can only be strong enough to do so. "I wish for power," you say. "Great power, so that I can become the Hero of Love and Justice I want to be."

)

Muramasa · Aug 12, 2016

Agent Whiskers said:
I have question. Has you guys actually told Maiko what Yui's wish was? Because that's an important piece of information.

Maiko was probably listening in when we told Yumi our wish.

PhDEevee · Aug 12, 2016

Actually, on reread, I don't really like this line:

She's already getting somewhere.

She's not. At all. She's avoiding the entire issue by avoiding talking to people. This kind of undermines the entire message.

Also, somewhat selfishly, I'd like one of my votes to win.

Reverting:

[x] Tell her that you've pretty much guessed that her power has something to with talking, which is why she's trying to be so careful.
-[x] Tell her that you're in a similar position; that one of the things your power did was to make you strong enough to crush concrete. Just by walking.
-[x] But the thing with stuff like that is if you try to avoid it, it makes it worse. If you'd been forced to defend yourself against someone, you might have killed them by accident if you hadn't known the full extent of your strength.
-[x] The only thing to do about that is to practise. Then you (and she) can learn to control your powers, and not accidentally hurt anyone.
[x] Don't push it - just ask her to think about it. You don't want her to end up like one of those lonely anime characters who hides themselves away from others because they're too strong, after all.
[x] See how Natsuki and Asami are doing.
- [x] Brainmail Asami first; Natsuki will Have Questions For You and you need to keep your stories consistent.

Vebyast · Aug 12, 2016

SystemicHatter said:
She's not. At all. She's avoiding the entire issue by avoiding talking to people. This kind of undermines the entire message.

Was thinking of the bit where she'd gotten to the point where she was able to cut herself off while talking to us, which she presumably didn't start with. But I can go with that. Like I said, I don't think I got anything out of messing with it.

[x] SystemicHatter

redzonejoe · Aug 12, 2016

[x] SystemicHatter

elenchus · Aug 12, 2016

My gut reaction is that Shinobu can't order Kyubey around, because that would be too easy, but then Kyubey's explicitly not immune to the effects of wishes or resulting wish magic, and Shinobu's compulsions aren't dependent on emotions. She could just have a range limit or something, which seems the most straightforward anti-Game Over limitation, and the Incubator hivemind has most of its parts outside it.

I'd also like to suggest "ordering magical girls to be happy" and "giving orders to magical girls that their witches have to follow".

Nolrai · Aug 12, 2016

Echo said:
Two of those won't work at all; the other three are possible, within certain limits.

So the question is which two, I am almost certain that "Order someone to execute a godel sentence" is one of the two.[1]

And I am guessing that the other one is either "witch out" or "follow other peoples orders". Though now that I think about it my hypotheses about the limitations that would limit those don't make a whole lot of sense? Or at least don't produce "wouldn't work at all".

What do other people think.

[1] Though I think both the poster and the QM might be miss understanding what "execute a godel sentence" means. [2] Given I can do so in a few dozen lines of computer code and either takes ~10 minutes, or is just running a algorithm that never ends, depending on how you interpret "execute".

[2] Which isn't hard to do given, you know, that Godel him self misunderstood what his theorems meant philosophically, and his misunderstandings were then copied and worsened by later writers.

Vebyast · Aug 12, 2016

Nolrai said:
[1] Though I think both the poster and the QM might be miss understanding what "execute a godel sentence" means. [2] Given I can do so in a few dozen lines of computer code and either takes ~10 minutes, or is just running a algorithm that never ends, depending on how you interpret "execute".

"Prove" may have been a better word? Though, really, you're right, the concept as stated is somewhat incoherent. I'm not sure why I chose that particular concept to encode the idea. And even if I'd meant it literally, you don't get the full effect anyway because neural networks don't map well to formal languages, so you can't have the unfortunate victim attempt a godel sentence for their own consciousness or something. And, really, they're a theoretical construction anyway, not useful for concrete implementation. Would've been better to phrase it as "Disobey this order".

BunnyLord · Aug 12, 2016

Echo said:
Fun fact: Nobody has yet suggested the most hilariously and horrifyingly broken potential use of Shinobu's compulsion that will have very interesting consequences if you ever try to exploit it!

Has anyone asked if it works on witches yet? I'm not sure if anything we know about the power would prevent it from working on them.

Echo · Aug 12, 2016

Nolrai said:
[1] Though I think both the poster and the QM might be miss understanding what "execute a godel sentence" means.

Vebyast said:
"Prove" may have been a better word? Though, really, you're right, the concept as stated is somewhat incoherent. I'm not sure why I chose that particular concept to encode the idea. And even if I'd meant it literally, you don't get the full effect anyway because neural networks don't map well to formal languages, so you can't have the unfortunate victim attempt a godel sentence for their own consciousness or something. And, really, they're a theoretical construction anyway, not useful for concrete implementation. Would've been better to phrase it as "Disobey this order".

Yeah, I assumed from context that the intent was some variation on "solve an encoded liar paradox lol".

Shinobu's compulsion does not provide a general solution to the Entscheidungsproblem, I'm afraid.

BunnyLord said:
Has anyone asked if it works on witches yet? I'm not sure if anything we know about the power would prevent it from working on them.

It doesn't.

Nolrai said:
And I am guessing that the other one is either "witch out" or "follow other peoples orders". Though now that I think about it my hypotheses about the limitations that would limit those don't make a whole lot of sense? Or at least don't produce "wouldn't work at all".

Anyway, your guesses were pretty good! Here's the basic rules, spoilered for spoiler-y-ness but most of this will be clarified the first time you get Shinobu to actually explain her problem:

Commands must be something the target would be physically and mentally capable of doing of their own free will if they chose to. An important corollary is that because wishes require you that you really mean it, she can't force arbitrary wishes but could order someone who's reluctant to become meguca to make the wish they have in mind.
She can't erase memories (though she can order someone to not think about a particular topic) or alter emotions or personality. She could order a meguca to overuse their magic, but not force them to grief spiral.
Higher-order commands don't work. No "ignore future commands", no "disregard previous commands", no "obey commands from other people", or any other commands involving commands.
The target must understand the command clearly. Verbal commands will fail if they're drowned out in background noise, directed at a deaf target, or given in a language the target is not fluent in.
The command must also be something Shinobu understands; she can't give commands in other languages by having someone else translate them and then repeating what they said, &c.
Finally, the biggest restriction: Commands must be consciously directed to specific individuals that Shinobu is aware of. No "trap" commands left for an unknown person to find, no mass emails, no ordering large groups around, &c.

Incubator bodies count as individuals and will obey her commands; her commands do not persist after the destruction of the body that perceived them and the Incubator hivemind is beyond her influence.

Hestia&theCourt · Aug 12, 2016

[X] SystemicHatter

PoptartProdigy · Aug 12, 2016

[X] SystemicHatter

Vebyast · Aug 12, 2016

Echo said:
Shinobu's compulsion does not provide a general solution to the Entscheidungsproblem, I'm afraid.

Hah. Nah, it's a compulsion, not a divination effect. I was going for denial of service anyway.

How do conflicting commands interact? If she says "Think about X" and "Don't think about X", which one wins?

Depending on the answer to that, without access to higher-order commands, undoing commands is somewhere between "difficult" and "impossible", since she can't say "stop thinking" or "disregard my last command". If newer commands override older commands directly, she has to remember what the original order was and compute a safe inverse: "think about X exactly as much as you would if I hadn't told you to think about X earlier". If conflicts explode, then any command past the first is potentially lethal and any attempt to undo an order is doomed. If conflicts balance, then you might be able to finely-tune "don't think about X" until the person resumes normal operations, but I can't believe that that tuning process would be easy.

Ugh, this is a scary power. Her parents are probably meat-robots right now. :/

Briefvoice · Aug 12, 2016

Echo said:
Anyway, your guesses were pretty good! Here's the basic rules, spoilered for spoiler-y-ness but most of this will be clarified the first time you get Shinobu to actually explain her problem:

Commands must be something the target would be physically and mentally capable of doing of their own free will if they chose to. An important corollary is that because wishes require you that you really mean it, she can't force arbitrary wishes but could order someone who's reluctant to become meguca to make the wish they have in mind.

She can't erase memories (though she can order someone to not think about a particular topic) or alter emotions or personality. She could order a meguca to overuse their magic, but not force them to grief spiral.

Higher-order commands don't work. No "ignore future commands", no "disregard previous commands", no "obey commands from other people", or any other commands involving commands.

The target must understand the command clearly. Verbal commands will fail if they're drowned out in background noise, directed at a deaf target, or given in a language the target is not fluent in.

The command must also be something Shinobu understands; she can't give commands in other languages by having someone else translate them and then repeating what they said, &c.

Finally, the biggest restriction: Commands must be consciously directed to specific individuals that Shinobu is aware of. No "trap" commands left for an unknown person to find, no mass emails, no ordering large groups around, &c.

Incubator bodies count as individuals and will obey her commands; her commands do not persist after the destruction of the body that perceived them and the Incubator hivemind is beyond her influence.

So it can work over any medium of communication, though? Telepathy, an email, a letter?

[X] SystemicHatter

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