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Project Knight [Mecha Design Bureau]

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Jalinth said:
Vitrol while saying thing entirely wrong? Methinks you should avoid tossing rocks in your glass house.

I stand behind my statement. Locking the speed controls does not solve the heat problem. It just pushes it farther down the road. It's 100% a bad idea. It leaves us with a coolant system that could go boom under stress. I've gone over how that kind of thinking will bite us later on. We don't want to be Quikscell selling products that we know are flawed. It's short sighted and foolish to do that. I could live with pretty much anything else on a plan, but not effectively ignoring the problem until it becomes a bigger one in the future.


In my experience with soldiers that isn't going to stop people from using it. It's also not going to prevent people from getting mad when it fails explosively because we couldn't be bothered to actually fix the problem.
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Why wouldn't it solve the problem?

It only became a problem because our system wasn't designed to go this fast, so the drive controllers generated more heat than the cooling system was intended to handle. We've already tested the speed limit and it works fine.

What makes you think that any of the solutions will actually fix the problem, for that matter? How do we know for sure that if we take the coolant replacement, the pipes won't fail anyways? Weaker coolant would mean that the localized heating issue gets worse, so wouldn't that cause burst pipes faster? And what makes you think that we can successfully develop new pipe materials that deal with such an extreme thermal gradient?

Your opposition to the limiter is pretty much fueled exclusively by speculation, and if we assume that the QM is lying to us all the time what's the point?
 
CuriousRaptor said:
Our weakest point of the production metrics is Tech, bringing that upwards while cutting to snub nose helps our production metrics vastly more than going all in on material, as the nations with a tech level equal to material wealth are likely more common than one with great tech but poor material wealth like Bethnar.
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That... Is actually a very good point. I haven't considered that Tech Simplicity affects the price.

[ ] Plan Simon Says Simplify
-[ ] [Mech Iteration] (Complication Resolution) Cheaper Coolant (0.5 funding)
-[ ] [Mech Iteration] (Hull) Cut to Snub-Nosed Hull (0.5 funding)
-[ ] [Mech Iteration] (Cost) Tech Hardening Review (1 funding)

[Complication Resolved] You do not suffer the negative effects of your Coolant Complication.
[+1.5 tons] Increased Usable Tonnage
[-0.66*] Heat Management
[+0.66] Material Affordability
[+1.0] Tech Simplicity
[+0.66] Skeletal Durability

Rather elegant.
 
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I've made my arguments and I don't see any point in making any more. Hope everyone has a good night, I'm going to get some sleep.
 
[ ] Plan: Trollface
-[ ] [Mech Iteration] (Complication Resolution) Lock the Speed Controls (0 funding)
-[ ] [Mech Iteration] (Hardpoints) Relocate Main Gun to Rear Hull (0.5 funding)
-[ ] [Mech Iteration] (Armour) Composite Plating Research (0.5 funding)
-[ ] [Mech Iteration] (Cost) Material Efficiency Review (1 funding)

Total effects:
[+1.0] Material Affordability
[+1.0] Build & Repair Speeds
[+0.33] Ease of Maintenance
[+0.33] Weapons Control
[-0.33] Skeletal Stability
[-0.33] Skeletal Durability
[-0.33] Acceleration
[-0.66] Top Speed
[Complication Resolved] You do not suffer the negative effects of your Coolant Complication.
[Blind Spot Removed] - Your Mech's Point Defence System loses the [Partial Blind Spot - Vertical] trait.
[Reroll] Your engineers will roll again against the failed [+0.66] Composite Plating roll you made this update - if your new pair of rolls are higher, they will be used instead of the old ones, potentially causing your Armour Plating rating to increase further.

Our war machine lights on fire if it moves too fast? Yes, just throttle the top speed and disclaim responsibility if anyone breaks it for the purposes of surviving their war! It's perfect to create "I have to go all out... just this once!" anime moments!

Apart from that I like the plans "Field of Fire" and "No Weaknesses"
 
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Magnificate said:
[ ] Plan Simon Says Simplify
-[ ] [Mech Iteration] (Complication Resolution) Cheaper Coolant (0.5 funding)
-[ ] [Mech Iteration] (Hull) Cut to Snub-Nosed Hull (0.5 funding)
-[ ] [Mech Iteration] (Cost) Tech Hardening Review (1 funding)

[Complication Resolved] You do not suffer the negative effects of your Coolant Complication.
[+1.5 tons] Increased Usable Tonnage
[-0.66*] Heat Management
[+0.66] Material Affordability
[+1.0] Tech Simplicity
[+0.66] Skeletal Durability
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Verisaimilitude said:
Bethnar Republic:
✅ Tech Simplicity C+ or lower
❌ Material Affordability B- or higher
✅ Ease of Maintenance C- or higher
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Ooops! Turns out I missed the fact that Bethnar actually wants low Tech Simplicity. This means the quoted plan actually risks shooting ourselves in the foot with them. Shame, since it otherwise makes so much sense to simplify the mecha! I guess for me it means going back to chasing the [+1.66] Material Affordability bonus from combining the Snub-Nosed Hull with Material Review.
 
Didn't even realize that Bethnar wanted something with relatively high complexity.

What's the point in going for their contract? Their choice is still going to be either our mech or a glorified industrial mech, so if they don't like it they can suck it up and buy anyways. We should really be trying to target the contracts from SCC and Amazon at this point, since they're actually going to buy these to go shoot at things. Selling to Bethnar isn't likely to get many orders or benefit us at all.
 
Lohjak said:
We should really be trying to target the contracts from SCC and Amazon at this point, since they're actually going to buy these to go shoot at things. Selling to Bethnar isn't likely to get many orders or benefit us at all.
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SCC is a valid target to reach, Amazon isn't. Bethnar isn't too important in itself. What matters to is the doubling down on economic aspects of mecha production. To reiterate, the plan below aims at taking our current successful design and streamlining it to the point we can either increase our margins or convince more clients to buy more units based on the price tag. Flood the market with our soon-to-be named Bushfires!

[X] Plan Line Goes Up
-[X] [Mech Iteration] (Complication Resolution) Cheaper Coolant (0.5 funding)
-[X] [Mech Iteration] (Hull) Cut to Snub-Nosed Hull (0.5 funding)
-[X] [Mech Iteration] (Cost) Material Efficiency Review (1 funding)

[Complication Resolved] You do not suffer the negative effects of your Coolant Complication.
[-0.66*] Heat Management
[+1.5 tons] Increased Usable Tonnage
[+1.66] (sic!) Material Affordability
[+1.0] Build & Repair Speeds
[-0.33] Skeletal Durability

Approval votes for:

[X] Plan Forget the SCC
-[X] [Mech Iteration] (Complication Resolution) Cheaper Coolant (0.5 funding)
-[X] [Mech Iteration] (Hull) Cut to Snub-Nosed Hull (0.5 funding)
-[X] [Mech Iteration] (Cost) Industrial Standardization (1 funding)

As above, but instead of doubling down on production efficiencies and sales volume it makes our mecha easier to work with in post-production support. With this plan it is still probable that we're going to snatch the Bethnar contract.

[X] Plan Double down on the SCC
-[X] [Mech Iteration] (Complication Resolution) Resilient Piping Materials (0.5 funding)
-[X] [Mech Iteration] (Hull) Cut to Snub-Nosed Hull (0.5 funding)
-[X] [Mech Iteration] (Armour) Composite Plating Research (0.5 funding)
-[X] [Mech Iteration] (Armour) Selective Armour Addons (costs 0.5 funding)

The most reliable way of passing the armour requirements for SCC and retaining the innovative cooling system. This plan passes up on Bethnar, which is the price we pay for increasing the close-combat resilience of our design.

EDIT: I'll just remind that going for Composite Plating Research by itself a tad less than 2/3 chance of improving the roll outcome. Because of that I think that Selective Armour Addons are required to supplement all plans that go for Composite Plating Research. Selective Armour Addons in turn require Snub-Nosed Hull or else there is not enough tonnage to use.
 
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[X] Plan Not a Parade Mech
-[X] [Mech Iteration] (Complication Resolution) Lock the Speed Controls (0 funding)
-[X] [Mech Iteration] (Hull) Independent Bulkhead Motion (0.5 funding)
-[X] [Mech Iteration] (Armour) Composite Plating Research (0.5 funding)
-[X] [Mech Iteration] (Cost) Tech Hardening Review (1 funding)

Goes for Amazon/SCC instead of Bethnar/SCC based on the fact that if we can get Amazon on board they'll be a much larger customer.

Magnificate said:
SCC is a valid target to reach, Amazon isn't. Bethnar isn't too important in itself. What matters to is the doubling down on economic aspects of mecha production. To reiterate, the plan below aims at taking our current successful design and streamlining it to the point we can either increase our margins or convince more clients to buy more units based on the price tag. Flood the market with our soon-to-be named Bushfires!
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Amazon is absolutely reachable, but beyond that, I'm pretty sure literally any improvement we make to the mech will result in it being sold more. Our mech is not going to actually be very expensive either way, Bethnar is just broke.

I'm not saying that cost is useless, and one other customer that we do actually want (SCC) also didn't love the price, but picking up a whole new nation state that really wants mechs for their wars as a customer should be worth way more than getting Bethnar and some more sales from customers that were going to buy anyways.
 
Lohjak said:
[X] Plan Not a Parade Mech
-[X] [Mech Iteration] (Complication Resolution) Lock the Speed Controls (0 funding)
-[X] [Mech Iteration] (Hull) Independent Bulkhead Motion (0.5 funding)
-[X] [Mech Iteration] (Armour) Composite Plating Research (0.5 funding)
-[X] [Mech Iteration] (Cost) Tech Hardening Review (1 funding)

Goes for Amazon/SCC instead of Bethnar/SCC based on the fact that if we can get Amazon on board they'll be a much larger customer.
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I understand the reasoning behind this plan, but I cannot endorse it. It is just too risky. First, it uses Composite Plating Research without adding on extra armour plates. It can work, but for my tastes the chances are too small. Second, it uses the least desireable solution for the cooling complication. The cooling system has to be properly fixed and I'm going to insist it happens now rather than in several years. I'm OK with skimming on some capabilities to make line go up, but I'm not OK with putting some poor maverick pilot at risk of being trapped in an exploding inferno.
 
Magnificate said:
The cooling system has to be properly fixed and I'm going to insist it happens now rather than in several years
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Based on what?

The only way this argument makes any sense at all is if you think that the QM is simply lying to us and that the speed limiter will not prevent the problem from occurring without explicit user approval.
 
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Lohjak said:
The only way this argument makes any sense at all is if you think that the QM is simply lying to us and that the speed limiter will not prevent the problem from occurring without explicit user approval.
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Yes. However, I fully expect those affected to blame the designers rather than the modders. Or we could advertise the flaw more, but that would undermine the efforts of Simon from Marketing. On a minor note, I don't want to lose the speed boost we've gained from reduced tonnage either.
 
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Magnificate said:
Yes. However, I fully expect those affected to blame the designers rather than the modders regardless. Or we could advertise the flaw more, but that would undermine the efforts of Simon from Marketing. On a minor note, I don't want to lose the speed boost we've gained from reduced tonnage either.
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Did we not read the same thing?
Verisaimilitude said:
The failure only occurs at high speeds, let's just put a limiter on how much power can flow through the Neuro-Electrical Circuits to the Drive Controller at any given time, then put a lock on speed over 65kph or so behind a manual override - if they break the system at that point, then they've modded the Mech, or overridden our safety features, at which point it's no longer our problem. Read the Terms and Conditions, customers.
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If they blame us, then it's their own damn fault for triggering the manual override that we told them would dramatically reduce the service life of the cooling system and being dumb enough to not realize that it would dramatically reduce the service life of the cooling system. Any competent marketer would just frame it as an emergency speed boost.

I don't think it's worth paying half a funding to keep the speed boost. None of our requirements care about speed and our mech is built around long range direct and indirect fire missions anyways.

It's like how we could pay half a funding to move our gun back. If we had unlimited money then of course we'd take it, but is it worth the opportunity cost? There's a lot of great options you can get for an extra half funding that might be make or break for a contract. Are you willing to risk it to keep the speed bonus that won't be?
 
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    • Voting is up just in case people didn't notice.

    You guys have been going around in circles on the coolant system and don't seem to be coming to a unanimous conclusion. If nothing else, a decent chunk of this argument is based on speculation about what will or won't happen - and the fact that the Quest is happening through the lens of an unreliable narrator with a QM who hasn't even fully settled on how to interpret events doesn't help with that speculation.

    I will say that IMO, fears of reputation impact if people start burning up the Mech are reasonable (just because it's the pilot's fault doesn't mean it's good optics that it can't use its full speed and power), but that's not a guaranteed thing either, and I am working hard as a QM to not put any 'trap' options into the Quest.

    Regardless, this argument is going nowhere and you don't seem to be convincing each other, so I recommend agreeing to disagree and moving on to voting for plans unless you have a different point of view to present from what you've argued previously - or else it's just going to be an endless cycle of butting heads!
     
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  • New
  • Voting
    • [X] Plan Line Goes Up
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Complication Resolution) Cheaper Coolant (0.5 funding)
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Hull) Cut to Snub-Nosed Hull (0.5 funding)
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Cost) Material Efficiency Review (1 funding)
     
    [X] Plan Forget the SCC
    [X] Plan Double down on the SCC
    [X] Plan Snub That Gun
    [X] Plan Field of Fire

    It amuses me to vote for plans with opposite names, but they both seem good

    [ ] Plan: Moar Armour
    -[ ] [Mech Iteration] (Complication Resolution) Resilient Piping Materials (0.5 funding)
    -[ ] [Mech Iteration] (Armour) Composite Plating Research (0.5 funding)
    -[ ] [Mech Iteration] (Armour) Predictive Plating Redesign (0.5 funding)
    -[ ] [Mech Iteration] (Armour) Selective Armour Addons (0.5 funding)
    [+0.33] Armour Plating
    [-2 tons] Reduced Usable Tonnage
    [-0.33] Material Affordability
    [-0.33] Build & Repair Speeds
    [Reroll] Your engineers will roll again against the failed [+0.66] Composite Plating roll you made this update - if your new pair of rolls are higher, they will be used instead of the old ones, potentially causing your Armour Plating rating to increase further.
    [Reroll] Your engineers will roll again against the [Gamble] Predictive Plating rolls you made this update - if your new pair of rolls are higher, they will be used instead of the old ones, potentially causing your Armour Plating rating to increase further.
    [Complication Resolved] You do not suffer the negative effects of your Coolant Complication.

    [X] Plan: Better Legs, Better Gun
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Complication Resolution) Resilient Piping Materials (0.5 funding)
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Limb) Joint Replacement Bearings (0.5 funding)
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Hardpoints) Relocate Main Gun to Rear Hull (0.5 funding)
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Hull) Cut to Snub-Nosed Hull (0.5 funding)
    [+1.5 tons] Increased Usable Tonnage
    [+1] Skeletal Agility
    [+1] Joint Protection
    [+1] Ease of Maintenance
    [+0.67] Skeletal Stability
    [+0.33] Weapons Control
    [-0.33] Build & Repair Speeds
    [-0.67] Material Affordability
    [-1] Limb Drive Speed
    [Blind Spot Removed] - Your Mech's Point Defence System loses the [Partial Blind Spot - Vertical] trait.
    [Complication Resolved] You do not suffer the negative effects of your Coolant Complication.
     
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    ProfessorB said:
    It amuses me to vote for plans with opposite names, but they both seem good.
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    Same. ;)
    ProfessorB said:
    -[ ] [Mech Iteration] (Armour) Predictive Plating Redesign (0.5 funding)
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    The problem with that is we rolled:
    Verisaimilitude said:
    Predictive Armour Development (Quadrapod): Experienced (+2) vs. Extra Difficulty (+1)
    [Gamble] Armour Plating increases from D- to D | 17 vs. 15 - minor success
    Structural Engineering (Quadrapod): Experienced (+3) vs. Extra Difficulty (+1)
    [Gamble] Armour Plating increases from D to D+ | 15 vs. 15 - minor success
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    I'm not quite sure whether it is actually possible to get a major success in these circumstances. What's the threshold for a major success?
     
    [X] Plan Field of Fire
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Complication Resolution) Cheaper Coolant (0.5 funding)
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Hull) Cut to Snub-Nosed Hull (0.5 funding)
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Armour) Composite Plating Research (0.5 funding)
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Hardpoints) Relocate Main Gun to Rear Hull (0.5 funding)

    [X] Plan Double down on the SCC
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Complication Resolution) Resilient Piping Materials (0.5 funding)
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Hull) Cut to Snub-Nosed Hull (0.5 funding)
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Armour) Composite Plating Research (0.5 funding)
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Armour) Selective Armour Addons (costs 0.5 funding)

    [X] Plan Forget the SCC
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Complication Resolution) Cheaper Coolant (0.5 funding)
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Hull) Cut to Snub-Nosed Hull (0.5 funding)
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Cost) Industrial Standardization (1 funding)
     
    [X] Plan Line Goes Up
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Complication Resolution) Cheaper Coolant (0.5 funding)
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Hull) Cut to Snub-Nosed Hull (0.5 funding)
    -[X] [Mech Iteration] (Cost) Material Efficiency Review (1 funding)
     
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