You responded to a post already hit for homophobia to basically agree with it. What, exactly, do you think that context might have lent to a reading of your post?
How about the LITERAL meaning of my words and the PARTIAL agreement that naturally results?
The quote and reply show that I can partially understand where he is coming from.

Now for the thread: I don't at all like some of those Harry Potter fics and similar works in other fandoms that try to justify such things as Harry Potter taking over the world and enslaving everyone or all the wizards and witches being exterminated. They sometimes come across as authoritarian or totalitarian wank.
 
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How about the LITERAL meaning of my words and the PARTIAL agreement that naturally results?
Some of the fics with homosexual MCs I have seen end up turning into full on romances and too often for my taste include smut.
I don't care about the sexual orientation itself
The literal meaning of your words is "I'm fine with gay people but reading about them having sex is bad." If your problem was that you don't like reading smut at all and found that (percentage wise) more fics with homosexual MCs involve smut than fics with straight MCs you should have said that instead.
 
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As far as it goes, the E88 is too often whitewashed. They're not understandable people with understandable fears, they're Nazi fuckheads high on hatred.

I don't think it's really dehumanization. Actually, it reminds me of a random quote from an essay about fanfiction and the fanon about a certain character with all of zero lines in the books:

The Greengrasses are commonly a "Gray" family, a word which here means "unable to discern a moral difference between fascism and antifascism."
 
The literal meaning of your words is "I'm fine with gay people but reading about them having sex is bad." If your problem was that you don't like reading smut at all and found that (percentage wise) more fics with homosexual MCs involve smut than fics with straight MCs you should have said that instead.
That is not the literal meaning, and you know that, though points for somewhat accurately getting what was left out.
I frankly indeed do not like reading smut at all and will admit at risk of sounding bigoted that I am under the impression that "more fics with homosexual MCs involve smut than fics with straight MCs" and I believe that in any case where a big deal is made of the MCs sexual preference be it hetero or homo, that is most likely a sign that smut or at least a focus on romance is lurking ahead.
I think if smut is going to be a big focus in the story, the polite thing to do is warn anyone considering reading.
I would hope that my preferences and distaste for surprise romance and smut would not inspire umbrage, however I get the feeling that some has already been inspired which shall not relax until after I either am booted or die upon my hill so to speak.
One of the best fics with homosexual relationships and romantic focus that I have read is Maria Campbell of the Astral Clocktower, I feel this work does it right and is capable of actually being enjoyable to more people compared to some stories.

For the thread:
One thing I hate in some fics is the all or nothing handling of any alleged "superscience" or "supertech", like in Exodus. I liked the fic at first, but the whole treatment of genius as hopeless tinker ability thing that seemed to be coming together kind of killed it for me, it is still a good fanfic though.
 
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As far as it goes, the E88 is too often whitewashed. They're not understandable people with understandable fears, they're Nazi fuckheads high on hatred.

I don't think it's really dehumanization.
The thing about calling condemning such people "dehumanization" is that people like that really exist, and all of them are human. Bending over backwards to pretend that deep down they aren't all that bad is at best immoral and counterproductive. Also, really skeevy.

There's been plenty of monsters in real life - and every last one of them has been human.
 
I also generally don't like attempts to either dehumanize or romanticize groups doing terrible things in a setting.
Yes, the E88 is made up of complex human beings and some like with the rest of the gangs are motivated by understandable fears, but they are still hurting innocents and need to be stopped and many or even most of them even if they don't start out that way when joining have dangerously racist beliefs and a darkly tinted view of others.
I'll bite, I'm a very queer, very Jewish ultraleftist of slavic descent; praytell what about the motivations of those who join gangs that adhere to National Socialist ideology falls under "understandable fears"? We know what sort of push and pull factors lead people to embrace the ideology of the regime that wiped out more than half of the Jewish population of the entire planet, but we would rarely call them "understandable". Comprehensible, yes, but "understandable" generally entails a degree of sympathy that the sort of people who idolise the men who filled the gravesites of eastern Europe with my forefathers don't warrant.
 
I think there's a lot of gay fetishization in bad fanfiction, and I think that's not a great thing, personally.
 
I'll bite, I'm a very queer, very Jewish ultraleftist of slavic descent; praytell what about the motivations of those who join gangs that adhere to National Socialist ideology falls under "understandable fears"? We know what sort of push and pull factors lead people to embrace the ideology of the regime that wiped out more than half of the Jewish population of the entire planet, but we would rarely call them "understandable". Comprehensible, yes, but "understandable" generally entails a degree of sympathy that the sort of people who idolise the men who filled the gravesites of eastern Europe with my forefathers don't warrant.
I believe that in the case of the E88 like with many gangs it is often a slippery slope instead of all at once, like a lot of real cults and extremist groups in fact.

In the case of E88 fear of the other gangs combined with the fear of losing friends, fear of being called out and possibly punished, fear of being wrong, and so on.

And of course over time the echochamber, false comfirmation, natural biases, and whatever damage may have already been done by similarly minded parents and E88 supporting authority figures has an effect and they more and more buy into it.
As a bonus it gives them an excuse to feel powerful by hurting others and dehumanizing them.
 
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In general when people talk about how joining the E88 is understandable they're forgetting/ignoring that the initiation ritual involves kidnapping and then executing a minority.

Going to a genuinely reprehensible group for protection because at least they aren't targeting you and there's a serial suicide bomber out there is something that can be sympathized with, even if not agreed with. Killing someone for said dubious protection is not.
 
I'll bite, I'm a very queer, very Jewish ultraleftist of slavic descent; praytell what about the motivations of those who join gangs that adhere to National Socialist ideology falls under "understandable fears"? We know what sort of push and pull factors lead people to embrace the ideology of the regime that wiped out more than half of the Jewish population of the entire planet, but we would rarely call them "understandable". Comprehensible, yes, but "understandable" generally entails a degree of sympathy that the sort of people who idolise the men who filled the gravesites of eastern Europe with my forefathers don't warrant.
As another very queer ("Degenerate"), very Jewish ("The most vile enemy of the Master Race) , very trans ("extremely degenerate"), very ace ("unable to procreate for the Volk") person, I'd just say that it's surprisingly easy for good people to fall into bad ideologies and rapidly stop being good people. There's a thousand ways to turn any of us into a murderer with enough indoctrination, social reinforcement, and the right occurences to happen in our lives just so.

Understandable means "able to be understood" and it is extremely important that we understand what structures can drag people into the moral deep end and how we can make sure they don't come about.

We have to understand, or else more people die, and that means understanding why people end up like that.

That said, yeah, if you're murdering people to get into a gang, you've already become a bad person. Probably years before actually doing that, frankly. Murdering to get into a gang is long past the moral Rubicon.
 
In the case of E88 fear of the other gangs combined with the fear of losing friends, fear of being called out and possibly punished, fear of being wrong, and so on.

Literally so what?

Like at the point you're an E88 Parahuman doing evil cape shit, so what? How you got there is significantly less important than that you be stopped.
 
In general when people talk about how joining the E88 is understandable they're forgetting/ignoring that the initiation ritual involves kidnapping and then executing a minority.

Going to a genuinely reprehensible group for protection because at least they aren't targeting you and there's a serial suicide bomber out there is something that can be sympathized with, even if not agreed with. Killing someone for said dubious protection is not.
Good point, I should have considered that.
While I will say that the recruitment process likely starts some time before official recruitment into the gang,
even with this in mind for anyone to willingly do such things for entry without there already being an obscenely strong grasps on their lives they are clearly horrible people long before that point is reached.

Literally so what?

Like at the point you're an E88 Parahuman doing evil cape shit, so what? How you got there is significantly less important than that you be stopped.

I fail to see how their origins could have a negating impact on the need to stop them outside of some forms of mastering, which is not used to recruit them.
 
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The thing about calling condemning such people "dehumanization" is that people like that really exist, and all of them are human. Bending over backwards to pretend that deep down they aren't all that bad is at best immoral and counterproductive. Also, really skeevy.

There's been plenty of monsters in real life - and every last one of them has been human.
True, but that isn't why "dehumanization" is bad. of course, all monsters are human. That goes without saying. Dehumanization is bad because it is the first step to treating a human as less than a human, whether they are a monster or not. It is generally regarded as bad to do such things not because anyone is interested so much in "protecting a monster" but instead protecting the one who, through their actions, is taking the first steps to become a monster themselves.
 
In general when people talk about how joining the E88 is understandable they're forgetting/ignoring that the initiation ritual involves kidnapping and then executing a minority.

On the other hand.

This ties into the bizarre people are forcibly injected and addicted to drugs on the street and high school kids are kidnapped and sold into slavery and all kinds of other bad action movie stuff. Worm suffers from Wildbow's blindness to the reality of a society falling apart here, in much the same way the antics about Winslow suffer from his blindness of the reality of a gang-heavy school. It doesn't depict a world where the sort of insane Death Wish '80s action movie drug war propaganda it says about its gangs makes sense; both that the fear and paranoia among regular citizens are not there, and the systems of its government are too intact and too powerful to simply take that kind of challenge to their monopolies on the use of violence lying down. I don't blame people for ignoring the more out-there aspects of Brockton's gangs in fanfic. Most of the time the story is much better for it.
 
In general when people talk about how joining the E88 is understandable they're forgetting/ignoring that the initiation ritual involves kidnapping and then executing a minority.

Going to a genuinely reprehensible group for protection because at least they aren't targeting you and there's a serial suicide bomber out there is something that can be sympathized with, even if not agreed with. Killing someone for said dubious protection is not.
I mean, there are evil people of every race, gender and sex. I can definitely see a character rationalizing that requirement and selecting a bad person to murder; there isn't a shortage of evil people in BB. However, this type of story would generally end up being a tragedy though as such a character would tend descend to out and out evil themselves over time (as you tend to become much more like the people you keep close to your life.)

Joining a group of Nazis for protection definitely is something I can see someone rationalizing if they are in a bad enough spot, but expecting then to not turn into a nazi yourself over time as a result is naive. That could be an interesting story, but it isn't generally the type of story I like reading or writing.
 
Yeah, canon Uber and Leet are basically like... stereotypical "Gamer Bros", and not of the fun kind. So you've got stuff like the GTA thing, and iirc Wildbow said canonically Leet has shirts that say things like "Endbringer victims complain too much", so the two of them are just generally kind of assholes. It's just that they rate a lot lower on the scale when their competition includes "Sex-trafficking Dragon Man", "Drugs: The Movie", "The Amazing Pedo-Snake", and of course "Literally Fucking Nazis".
"Literally Fucking Nazis"

Ok, here's my pet peeve. It's mostly concerned with Worm, but I see it from time to time elsewhere.

American NeoNazi = Nazi

So, basically, there's this idea going around, and I will admit it is a perfectly understandable idea, that American NeoNazis are the same politically and ideologically as Nazis. Worm in particular is a major offender here.

NeoNazis have nothing to do with Nazis, not politically, not ideologically, nothing. Hell, NeoNazis only hate on Jews because it is fashionable, not for any of the reasons that Nazis hated on them which, while utterly reprehensible, where nonetheless rational and had a basis in real experiences.

The Nazis also had no issue with people of other races (other than the Jews) and counted Africans, Asians and Middle Eastern peoples amongst their number. NeoNazis hate everyone who isn't white for reasons that are mostly imagined.

In short, WW2 Nazis would despise NeoNazis.

Shit, even back in WW2, the USA was more racist than literal Nazis. But I digress.

The point I'm making, and to go back to Worm fanfics for a moment, is the idea that the E88 would have anything to do with Geschellshaft, is a hilariously incorrect view of NeoNazi ideology. The two would more likely be at each other's throats.

Also, the Norse love is distinctly German NeoNazi, American NeoNazis tend to be more Christian in their theological appropriation. Fuck, everything about the way the E88 is shown in Worm bothers me.

I mean, the characters are ...mostly right: Kaiser doesn't give a shit about any of it and is just using it to make money, Hookwolf just wants to hurt people, Rune is a child brought up in it all with zero prospect to get out and is still a bit too young to being thinking for herself, etc, etc. These are real people who would be caught up in the NeoNazi system (Wildbow was really good at writing people, not so good at writing culture and the things surrounding people). Basically, if you think of NeoNazis as less of an ideology or political thing and more as a cult, you wont be far off on how they operate and the kind of people they attract.

(Cricket bothers me, though. Her entire thing, from weapon choice to costume, even her name, screams Asian and I seriously think Wildbow got confused at some point and put her in with the wrong gang by mistake and just ran with it.)

When writing fanfics, people tend to forget that NeoNazis are humans too, and most of them don't really subscribe. But getting out is hell, as, like a cult, they isolate you from friends and family, become your friends and family, and ultimately prevent any real way to get support to get out of the group.

Even fanfics that start with the MC deciding to focus first on community support always default to 'shoot the Nazi'. People are more willing give fucking Lung, the literal sex slaving mass murderer, more of a sympathetic character than any E88 cape or minion.

Just because he didn't call his gang 'NeoNazi but Asian'. ...which is literally how he runs his gang, but whatever.

Because we all know Nazis are evil, soulless space aliens and thus it is 100% ok to kill them without a second thought. Not like they have families, or jobs, or children, or might only be there because they were press-ganged and their family's lives might be under threat if they don't behave or anything like that.

Nope. Nazi. Evil. Kill it.

Sorry, this turned into a meandering rant. But god does it bother me how willing people are to dehumanise others.
 
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"Literally Fucking Nazis"

Ok, here's my pet peeve. It's mostly concerned with Worm, but I see it from time to time elsewhere.

American NeoNazi = Nazi

So, basically, there's this idea going around, and I will admit it is a perfectly understandable idea, that American NeoNazis are the same politically and ideologically as Nazis. Worm in particular is a major offender here.

NeoNazis have nothing to do with Nazis, not politically, not ideologically, nothing. Hell, NeoNazis only hate on Jews because it is fashionable, not for any of the reasons that Nazis hated on them which, while utterly reprehensible, where nonetheless rational and had a basis in real experiences.

The Nazis also had no issue with people of other races (other than the Jews) and counted Africans, Asians and Middle Eastern peoples amongst their number. NeoNazis hate everyone who isn't white for reasons that are mostly imagined.

In short, WW2 Nazis would despise NeoNazis.

Shit, even back in WW2, the USA was more racist than literal Nazis. But I digress.

The point I'm making, and to go back to Worm fanfics for a moment, is the idea that the E88 would have anything to do with Geschellshaft, is a hilariously incorrect view of NeoNazi ideology. The two would more likely be at each other's throats.

Also, the Norse love is distinctly German NeoNazi, American NeoNazis tend to be more Christian in their theological appropriation. Fuck, everything about the way the E88 is shown in Worm bothers me.

I mean, the characters are ...mostly right: Kaiser doesn't give a shit about any of it and is just using it to make money, Hookwolf just wants to hurt people, Rune is a child brought up in it all with zero prospect to get out and is still a bit too young to being thinking for herself, etc, etc. These are real people who would be caught up in the NeoNazi system (Wildbow was really good at writing people, not so good at writing culture and the things surrounding people). Basically, if you think of NeoNazis as less of an ideology or political thing and more as a cult, you wont be far off on how they operate and the kind of people they attract.

(Cricket bothers me, though. Her entire thing, from weapon choice to costume, even her name, screams Asian and I seriously think Wildbow got confused at some point and put her in with the wrong gang by mistake and just ran with it.)

When writing fanfics, people tend to forget that NeoNazis are humans too, and most of them don't really subscribe. But getting out is hell, as, like a cult, they isolate you from friends and family, become your friends and family, and ultimately prevent any real way to get support to get out of the group.

Even fanfics that start with the MC deciding to focus first on community support always default to 'shoot the Nazi'. People are more willing give fucking Lung, the literal sex slaving mass murderer, more of a sympathetic character than any E88 cape or minion.

Just because he didn't call his gang 'NeoNazi but Asian'. ...which is literally how he runs his gang, but whatever.

Because we all know Nazis are evil, soulless space aliens and thus it is 100% ok to kill them without a second thought. Not like they have families, or jobs, or children, or might only be there because they were press-ganged and their family's lives might be under threat if they don't behave or anything like that.

Nope. Nazi. Evil. Kill it.

Sorry, this turned into a meandering rant. But god does it bother me how willing people are to dehumanise others.


What
 
So I'm currently going through a bunch of fanfic for a JRPG series (Trails of Cold Steel), and whenever I read the new dialogues they wrote, it bugs me whenever it doesn't feel like it would be something a Japanese would write.

I know enough of Japanese culture, writing, and dialogue mold (having more than a decade of VN reading and nearly two decades with other Japanese media does that to you) to know when it doesn't fit, and even though it's written in English it just really bugs me.

I guess that's also why when I think about what a character would say, a lot of the time I think of it in terms of "Okay, they'd probably say this in the Japanese version, and I think it would be fair to translate it to this, based on the English release's translation and/or what I think is fair translation for it." Same for whatever reaction a character has - it has to make sense from a Japanese writer standpoint or it'd just bug me.

There's just some sentences that just doesn't fit with a work that has a story and characters written by a Japanese, and it just feels off whenever I see those sentences.
 
Tl;Dr
My pet peeves:
Getting history wrong
Dehumanising others because it is convenient

I came off a couple of fics that did just this and I got annoyed enough to have a rant. Apologies for it being a little incoherent.
 
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"Literally Fucking Nazis"

Ok, here's my pet peeve. It's mostly concerned with Worm, but I see it from time to time elsewhere.

American NeoNazi = Nazi

So, basically, there's this idea going around, and I will admit it is a perfectly understandable idea, that American NeoNazis are the same politically and ideologically as Nazis. Worm in particular is a major offender here.

NeoNazis have nothing to do with Nazis, not politically, not ideologically, nothing. Hell, NeoNazis only hate on Jews because it is fashionable, not for any of the reasons that Nazis hated on them which, while utterly reprehensible, where nonetheless rational and had a basis in real experiences.

The Nazis also had no issue with people of other races (other than the Jews) and counted Africans, Asians and Middle Eastern peoples amongst their number. NeoNazis hate everyone who isn't white for reasons that are mostly imagined.

In short, WW2 Nazis would despise NeoNazis.

Shit, even back in WW2, the USA was more racist than literal Nazis. But I digress.

The point I'm making, and to go back to Worm fanfics for a moment, is the idea that the E88 would have anything to do with Geschellshaft, is a hilariously incorrect view of NeoNazi ideology. The two would more likely be at each other's throats.

Also, the Norse love is distinctly German NeoNazi, American NeoNazis tend to be more Christian in their theological appropriation. Fuck, everything about the way the E88 is shown in Worm bothers me.

I mean, the characters are ...mostly right: Kaiser doesn't give a shit about any of it and is just using it to make money, Hookwolf just wants to hurt people, Rune is a child brought up in it all with zero prospect to get out and is still a bit too young to being thinking for herself, etc, etc. These are real people who would be caught up in the NeoNazi system (Wildbow was really good at writing people, not so good at writing culture and the things surrounding people). Basically, if you think of NeoNazis as less of an ideology or political thing and more as a cult, you wont be far off on how they operate and the kind of people they attract.

(Cricket bothers me, though. Her entire thing, from weapon choice to costume, even her name, screams Asian and I seriously think Wildbow got confused at some point and put her in with the wrong gang by mistake and just ran with it.)

When writing fanfics, people tend to forget that NeoNazis are humans too, and most of them don't really subscribe. But getting out is hell, as, like a cult, they isolate you from friends and family, become your friends and family, and ultimately prevent any real way to get support to get out of the group.

Even fanfics that start with the MC deciding to focus first on community support always default to 'shoot the Nazi'. People are more willing give fucking Lung, the literal sex slaving mass murderer, more of a sympathetic character than any E88 cape or minion.

Just because he didn't call his gang 'NeoNazi but Asian'. ...which is literally how he runs his gang, but whatever.

Because we all know Nazis are evil, soulless space aliens and thus it is 100% ok to kill them without a second thought. Not like they have families, or jobs, or children, or might only be there because they were press-ganged and their family's lives might be under threat if they don't behave or anything like that.

Nope. Nazi. Evil. Kill it.

Sorry, this turned into a meandering rant. But god does it bother me how willing people are to dehumanise others.
Everything you said was wrong.

Truly incredible.
 
Its not Nazism unless its from 1933-1945 Germany otherwise its just sparkling White Supremacy.

NeoNazis have nothing to do with Nazis, not politically, not ideologically, nothing. Hell, NeoNazis only hate on Jews because it is fashionable, not for any of the reasons that Nazis hated on them which, while utterly reprehensible, where nonetheless rational and had a basis in real experiences.

The Nazis also had no issue with people of other races (other than the Jews) and counted Africans, Asians and Middle Eastern peoples amongst their number. NeoNazis hate everyone who isn't white for reasons that are mostly imagined.
What the actual fuck is this fascist nonsense
The nazi hatred of Jews was "rational and basis in real experience"
Genocide of the Roma not real apparently
Generalplan Ost not real apparently
Nazi apologists are wild and wretched cause they cant help themselves
 
The Nazis considered everyone who wasn't considered Aryan as subhuman, with a spectrum of possibilities from those whose children might be "Germanizable" to those that the world was probably better off without. That they were sometimes polite to other countries was just because they were still Germans.
 
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