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No, SV, You Are the Forest! (Riot Quest)

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WallFlower said:
Thank you. I must have missed that

Is this better?
[X][Action] Utilize the Twist power to grow or shrink the Forest (Gravity)

EDIT: I should maybe explain that I think that it may be useful to prepare this at least in part. With the maximum of three successes I can get as a scavenger tree this likely won't trigger.
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Raising Kittens said:
[ ][Action] Utilize the Twist power to grow or shrink the Forest (Gravity)
-This action increases or decreases the effective Magnitude of the Forest, for the purpose of opposing hostile effects where it is beneficial to be larger or smaller. This does not alter the number of available Focus actions, or otherwise influence non-hostile effects that depend upon the magnitude of the Forest.
-This action does not bank successes. 0/10.
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Emphasis mine. Also, I'm pretty sure you have to pick grow or shrink.
 
Prime 2.0 said:
The issue here is that kitten has stated every rank of sun proximity takes double the work of the last - and while it'll return +16 growth total if we move closer by turn 3, that's in exchange for over 60 growth, a net loss of 44+.

Every Collector tree upgraded this turn by contrast costs 40, but will produce 48.75 over the same span, for a net gain of 8.75 towards magnitude 6. Spending focus actions on skimmer upgrades isn't just worse, it potentially makes magnitude 6 by turn 4 impossible.
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You're forgetting to factor in that every Elder Collector has its production raised by proximity, up to a 1.4 multiplier.

At Mag 4, every +10% increases the successes generated by each Elder Collector by +1.6 per turn. At Mag 5, the value is +2 per Collector per turn. With Worm lvl 3, the average successes are raised to +2.4 and +3 respectively.

If we intend to have Worm lvl 3 and 10 Elder Collectors by the end of turn 2, one extra proximity will generate 48 successes on turns 3 and 4 from bonus Collector production alone, and at least 16 more successes from bonus growth action successes over the same span, for 64 successes total. Subtract the 30 cost of the Skimmer, and that's +34 net. I'm really not kidding when I say a Skimmer bought now roughly matches or exceeds the value of one Collector.

Raising Kittens said:
-Elder Skimmer Tree (Gravitic): Unlocks the 'Set a Course' Forest Choice, which will put four dice to moving to the target until it is reached. If no Course is set, three additional bonus successes are applied to any Movement actions taken. A Course can be contributed to by Player actions, and interrupted or sidetracked by others. Setting a Course is a majority vote. Requires 30 Growth successes per upgrade. 0/30.
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Since the Elder Skimmer also gives 4 auto-successes per turn if a Course is decided, we'd pretty much be guaranteed to reach at least Proximity 2 by Turn 3.

Last turn, 4 successes moved us 1 light minute closer, and Raising Kittens said the next proximity increment is only 1 light minute away:

Raising Kittens said:
Move closer to the Local Star, see what happens. 1 voter, 1 Elder Heart Tree, 4 dice. 2 * 2.2 = 4.4, another light-minute closer.
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Raising Kittens said:
Another light-minute closer will get you to two, the one after that to three, and the one after that to five... but it'll be harder to cross that distance.
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Sapient_Ham said:
You're forgetting to factor in that every Elder Collector has its production raised by proximity, up to a 1.4 multiplier.

At Mag 4, every +10% increases the successes generated by each Elder Collector by +1.6 per turn. For Mag 5, the value is +2 per Collector per turn. With Worm lvl 3, the average successes are raised to +2.4 and +3 respectively.

If we intend to have Worm lvl 3 and 10 Elder Collectors by the end of turn 2, then 1 extra proximity will give at least +48 on Turns 3 to 4 from bonus Collector production alone, and +16 from bonus growth action successes, for +64 total. Subtract the 30 cost of the Skimmer, and that's +34 net. I'm really not kidding when I say a Skimmer bought now roughly matches or exceeds the value of one Collector.

And since the Elder Skimmer also gives 4 auto-successes to movement per turn if a Course is decided:
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Two notes here: One, sun proximity only applies to player actions. I made the same mistake when I was first putting the plan together, but Kittens informed me otherwise when I checked with him, and he's since reaffirmed it in-thread:
Raising Kittens said:
-Sun Proximity 1 is in effect. All non-automatic successes have their multiplier increase by 0.1.
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Two, we're getting worm lvl 3 by the end of this turn, we already have enough dice for it to be more likely than not.

Ultimately, sun proximity is just a small bonus to manual growth, which isn't impacted by the circumstances that has us chasing explosive growth right now. Since the spreadsheet I used is available in the plan post, you can see the impact messing around with it has directly by modifying the values in the sun prox. column.
 
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Prime 2.0 said:
Two notes here: One, sun proximity only applies to player actions. I made the same mistake when I was first putting the plan together, but Kittens informed me otherwise when I checked with him, and he's since reaffirmed it in-thread:
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Yeah, that's an overlap in terminology, sorry. When I say Elder Collectors benefit from proximity, I mean the percentage increase noted in the Tree's description:
-Elder Collector Tree (Crystal): A more efficient Collector Tree, this Special Tree provides two additional automatic successes to every Focus action dedicated to Growth instead of one, and receives bonuses the closer the Forest comes to a star - up to a 40% increase. Requires 40 Growth successes per upgrade. 0/40.
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How exactly this will manifest is uncertain, but the simplest assumption is that it'll tend to go up in +10% increments as well. We'll know for sure once the first Elder Collector is upgraded.
 
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Sapient_Ham said:
How exactly this will manifest is uncertain, but the simplest assumption is that it'll tend to go up in +10% increments as well. We'll know for sure once the first Elder Collector is upgraded.
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I feel like an idiot for not noticing that - I referenced that page so many times, saw it, then forgot about it...

Well, there's an argument for it there, at least. But taking advantage of it requires a lot more things go right, whereas even with the current focus actions we have a reliable path to mag6 (especially with proximity bonus added in!)... and, well, getting them to switch to a better set of focus actions requires convincing people of it. We're in an uphill battle already.

I can't double-check everything right now as I'm about to leave, but before I go - I'll just note that the wording of the high sun activity is that it adds 1 growth per tier of the collector tree, rather than the more simple "doubles". I expect that this is phrased deliberately to imply that this bonus growth is not affected by the elder collector tree's proximity bonus.

Maybe you already took that into account, I'm not able to check, but I appreciate the effort you put into looking into this. I just think that focusing on collector tree growth is the more reliable bet right now.
 
[X][Action] Erect the Shield! (Magnetic)
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree
[X][FOCUS] Grow the forest
[X][FOCUS] Grow the forest x2
 
[X][Action] Sacrifice to the Worm (???)
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree x2
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree x3
 
[X][Action] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree

[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree x2
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree x3
 
[x][Tree] Root Tree
-When you vote for a Growth or Offense action, an extra 1d6 will be added to the dice pool.

[x][Action] Grow the Forest
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree x1
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree x2
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree x3
 
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[X][Action] Attempt to store resources against future need. (General)

[X][Focus] Research Wormhole Stabilization (Gravity, Void)
[X][Focus] Research the Reflecting Tree (Crystal)
[X][Focus] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree

isoproprietor said:
Emphasis mine. Also, I'm pretty sure you have to pick grow or shrink.
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Alright, then I will change again.
 
Sapient_Ham said:
How exactly this will manifest is uncertain, but the simplest assumption is that it'll tend to go up in +10% increments as well. We'll know for sure once the first Elder Collector is upgraded.
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It will go up in 10% increments, up to the cap.

Prime 2.0 said:
I expect that this is phrased deliberately to imply that this bonus growth is not affected by the elder collector tree's proximity bonus.
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The bonus growth is effected by the elder collector tree's proximity bonus. I'll add them up then multiply.
 
I've updated the plan and spreadsheet with the new info from Kittens.

As before, this turn we want to:
  • feed the worm a bit more for safety
  • Move closer to the sun
  • Upgrade more collector trees (they cost 40 growth, but will produce 68.25 growth!) with focus actions and personal actions
  • Get some more mind tree dice on Crystal Formation for safety

Unrelated, but if we can get a few heart trees using the magnetize power on the asteroids, that'd be pretty cool too.
 
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[X][Tree] Heart Tree
[X][Action] Move closer to the local star to improve the Sun Proximity bonus. (Gravity)
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree x2
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree x3
 
[X][Action] Sacrifice to the Worm (???)
[X][Focus] Research Crystal Formation (Crystal)*
[X][Focus] Research Crystal Formation (Crystal)* x2
[X][Focus] Research the Hyper Tree (Gravitic, Void)*
 
[X][Tree] Root Tree
[X][ACTION] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree x2
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree x3
 
Prime 2.0 said:
Unrelated, but if we can get a few heart trees using the magnetize power on the asteroids, that'd be pretty cool too.
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Wouldn't root/assault trees be better for that? Kittens says it'd be an offense option grabbing the asteroids/comet and the curious drone that popped out of the wormhole so they'd be better suited for it.
 
RebelYell said:
Wouldn't root/assault trees be better for that? Kittens says it'd be an offense option grabbing the asteroids/comet and the curious drone that popped out of the wormhole so they'd be better suited for it.
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Oh, pfft. I misremembered and thought heart trees were responsible for offense.

Well, that's a bit of a pickle, grabbing rocks takes away from the main push for elder tree upgrades.
 
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[X][Action] Attempt to store resources against future need. (General)
[X][Focus] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree
[X][Focus] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree x2
[X][Focus] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree x3
 
[x][Action] Attempt to store resources against future need.
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree
[x][Focus] Grow the Forest
[x][Focus] Ask the Research Base about the Prey.
 
X][Action] Research Crystal Formation (Crystal)*
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree x2
[X][FOCUS] Upgrade Elder Collector Tree x3
 
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