Nerds, Catgirls, and Other Trans Potentialities - now revised!

There it is. 'Not valid from my own experience'. If you're the kind of person who decides that other people's pain doesn't matter or exist because you don't feel like that, then we have nothing more to talk about. Your experience makes nothing invalid. It defines no one else, and if someone disagrees and says their experience is different, that doesn't define you either. There is a wide multiplicity of life and existence that is not you, is not defined by the same emotional reactions and has not taken the exact same life course. They are just as goddamn fucking valid.

Except 'raw personal essay' was not what was advertised. The title does not suggest 'raw' and it does not suggest 'personal'. It is framed entirely academically, ie, impersonally, and there is no way to even know that it's going to involve self-deprecation until those jokes are right in front of your face. That is the problem. Any kind of content warning - the one I suggested, or just 'this gets raw and personal be warned' - would have solved this. These are not emotionally neutral subjects, and diving into them in such a manner without warning, in fact while titling the essay in such a way that implies you will not be doing that - is negligent and on the head of the writer. If you want to play in the sandbox of self-hatred, dysphoria, trauma and suffering that characterises the experience of struggling to be queer, transgender or gender-diverse in a hostile and brutal world - especially under neurodivergence - you need to accept that your words will have consequences and take precautions to protect your fellows, even if what you're writing isn't something that hurts you.
again, i think your pain exists, i just don't think you're dealing with it appropriately. I'm not validating you for it. saying something isn't valid is a normative assertion. I'm saying that you shouldn't be behaving like this. you can feel however you want

in your own words, there is a wide variety of life and existence that is not you - stop making this about yourself, or rather make it about yourself but do it in your own head, with an open mind

we all play in the sandbox - so stop kicking over my fucking castle and share.
 
See, this is an interesting essay. I wish I could read it outside of a forum. My trans experience isn't one I talk about a lot. But the first article of women's clothing I bought was a pair of thigh-high socks. I suppose to some of the gatekeepers listed off in this article and seemingly present in this thread, I would be a parody of womanhood - a common TERF talking point. But when I wear those socks, I'm making a conscious decision to wear women's clothing, to imagine myself in a woman's role.

In this schema, the catgirl is something like immaturity: it is a fantasy that is yet to become flesh. It is the epitome of eggness, representing an unrealized potential for being trans, but one that will come into its own through transformation into a more grounded, realistic form. It is Dornin's willing, but inept dance, a possible first step that can never be the end goal in itself. This is not something that could have fit into her coming out video – or if it could have, at most as a joke.

The trans catgirl is a fantasy made reality. How I came to transness was through my forum RPs on Transformers fan forums and other places. In many ways, I am that catgirl - someone who found themselves through things like that. Yet for a lot of people, that's not a legitimate way of being trans. When we talk down to these people, we're really enforcing an idea of transness, how trans people should be, how they should talk, how they should behave.
 
again, i think your pain exists, i just don't think you're dealing with it appropriately. I'm not validating you for it. saying something isn't valid is a normative assertion. I'm saying that you shouldn't be behaving like this. you can feel however you want

in your own words, there is a wide variety of life and existence that is not you - stop making this about yourself, or rather make it about yourself but do it in your own head, with an open mind

we all play in the sandbox - so stop kicking over my fucking castle and share.
You don't get this. I am not feeling pain. Your attempts to discredit and shove away my complaints by insinuating that I am acting irrationally due to emotion are falling flat, because I do not feel pain right now. This is not painful or difficult, or traumatic for me. I'm lucky enough (in a way) to have had every shred of my pain ripped out, shoved in my face and been forced to deal with it before I could take a single step forward or even function more than a 4 year old, for years on end. I've dealt with these particular demons, and all that remains for me is exploration of what they concealed. What I feel is protectiveness. People are being hurt and I empathise because these same tactics were inflicted on me.

I am responding with analogies from my own experience to try and provide you with perspective on your actions and words. I am speaking because your incendiary denigration of people who are trying to tell you that they're being hurt is cruel. You choice of vocabulary is uniformly demeaning, treating people as emotionally volatile, uncontrolled and irrational. You infantilise and patronise them, in echo of the attitude towards 'trans catgirls' that the very essay is supposed to be about. They are trying to explain that something has hurt them, and you are deliberately twisting the knife. It's obscene in it's utter callousness. I fundamentally do not understand how your posts have not already received moderator action given how you characterise people.

You say 'share the sandbox' while claiming that others place in it is invalid. Do you not see the hypocrisy? I am literally just asking that you show some empathy and care, instead of acting like this.
 
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You don't get this. I am not feeling pain. Your attempts to discredit and shove away my complaints by insinuating that I am acting irrationally due to emotion are falling flat, because I do not feel pain right now. This is not painful or difficult, or traumatic for me. I'm lucky enough (in a way) to have had every shred of my pain ripped out, shoved in my face and been forced to deal with it before I could take a single step forward or even function more than a 4 year old, for years on end. I've dealt with these particular demons, and all that remains for me is exploration of what they concealed. What I feel is protectiveness. People are being hurt and I empathise when these same tactics were inflicted on me.

I am responding with analogies from my own experience to try and provide you with perspective on your actions and words. I am speaking because your incendiary denigration of people who are trying to tell you that they're being hurt is cruel. You choice of vocabulary is uniformly demeaning, treating people as emotionally volatile, uncontrolled and irrational. You infantilise and patronise them, in echo of the attitude towards 'trans catgirls' that the very essay is supposed to be about. They are trying to explain that something has hurt them, and you are deliberately twisting the knife. It's obscene in it's utter callousness. I fundamentally do not understand how your posts have not already received moderator action given how you characterise people
You keep using lots of italics, bolds, and making really vicious comments like "obscene in its utter callousness" and "devoid of empathy". That makes you seem hurt, irrational, and very, very angry. It's also why you're getting some of the pushback that you are. Because you are using very strong language and describing people as being a couple steps below evil, in the intensity of the negative descriptors you're choosing.
 
You keep using lots of italics, bolds, and making really vicious comments like "obscene in its utter callousness" and "devoid of empathy". That makes you seem hurt, irrational, and very, very angry. It's also why you're getting some of the pushback that you are. Because you are using very strong language and describing people as being a couple steps below evil, in the intensity of the negative descriptors you're choosing.
The inability to understand my use of italics and bolds is not on me, given that I lay out my precise usage and meaning of them in my signature for all to see. It is my attempt to translate spoken intonations to text to provide nuance and emotional context. Also, I do not believe I'm describing Place as 'evil'. I'm describing her as callous and dismissive. Uncaring in the choice of her words and lacking in the very self-reflection she tells others to use. That people are responding positively to such... heavy-handedness and lack of care frames the original essay in a more unflattering light, suggesting it was not lack of thought that caused the missteps, but lack of care in that a risk was perceived, yet dismissed as unimportant.

EDIT: I would like to clarify that I'm describing Place's behavior, not being. I am not stooping to the level of calling her a bad person, I'm trying to find a perspective that explains that she is acting without care, or not connecting the dots somehow. I do not comprehend how she got to this place.
 
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The inability to understand my use of italics and bolds is not on me, given that I lay out my precise usage and meaning of them in my signature for all to see. It is my attempt to translate spoken intonations to text to provide nuance and emotional context. Also, I do not believe I'm describing Place as 'evil'. I'm describing her as callous and dismissive. Uncaring in the choice of her words and lacking in the very self-reflection she tells others to use.
I said a few steps below evil, yeah. 'Cause you didn't say evil. You said callous and dismissive. Which are very intense descriptors. You can't rely on people reading your signature, either. I don't read most signatures, and you can't get around the connotations of how language and punctuation and text are normally used by including a boilerplate BTW on your own personal interpretation. You're using charged language and speaking in a very charged way and generally behaving as if you are in fact extremely upset. I'm telling you now why you're getting spoken to like you're being spoken to. Because you're not at all communicating like you seem to think you're communicating.
 
The inability to understand my use of italics and bolds is not on me, given that I lay out my precise usage and meaning of them in my signature for all to see. It is my attempt to translate spoken intonations to text to provide nuance and emotional context.

Oh, your use of emphasis is perfectly understandable. The effect of it, however much you intended it or not, is nonetheless that you come off as very angry. Your signature doesn't change that, in part because nobody's going to read dense blocks of people's signatures and in part because chances are they'll have formed their first impression of what you've said before reading your signature, being below your posts as it is, rendering it rather moot.
 
I said a few steps below evil, yeah. 'Cause you didn't say evil. You said callous and dismissive. Which are very intense descriptors. You can't rely on people reading your signature, either. I don't read most signatures, and you can't get around the connotations of how language and punctuation and text are normally used by including a boilerplate BTW on your own personal interpretation. You're using charged language and speaking in a very charged way and generally behaving as if you are in fact extremely upset. I'm telling you now why you're getting spoken to like you're being spoken to. Because you're not at all communicating like you seem to think you're communicating.
I have done my best to provide people with the tools needed to understand my way of speaking in the only way I could. The alternative is to never speak at all. I believe that I have done my due diligence. This is not me upset. My brain is clear, my gut is calm and I am viewing this dispassionately although with some decided frustration. The very rules of SV prohibit such behavior as Place's in this thread. The way she is discarding any disagreement as irrationally emotion-driven is, I believe, not 'playing the ball'. I have tried my utmost to remain civil. The problem is I do not know other words for this behavior. 'Callous and dismissive'. Those are the two descriptors that I have so I used them. They are words that I use when someone is acting without care for the feelings of others, a form of bluntness and heavy-handedness that does not give any thought to the suffering of others. Given the subject matter, and the sheer prevalence of depression, PTSD, dysphoria and other serious mental health issues in both the queer community and Sufficient Velocity, such behavior is not acceptable. I hope that some understanding of this can be transmitted and that things can change, because as I said, this behaviour is twisting the knife. Discounting people as overreacting when that response is commonly used to dismiss trans experiences? How do you get here?

I'm trying to explain this because I've walked both roads. I've hurt people unthinkingly and callously. The person I was 3, 6 or 10 years ago was a vile heap of dysfunction, arrogance and self-assurance that refused to understand people or consider itself. And I've been hurt by this behavior. For years, decades, the greatest portion of my life. I am trying to get Place to reach the same point of self-realisation I did, because I recognise this behavior, this way of rationalising one's actions as not a big deal, there's no problem. Everything about queer and trans experiences is a minefield and actions and words matter. No one's suffering is invalid. No one's feelings or issues should be discounted or condescended to. But that's what Place is doing.

You say that my words are coming across wrong? Then I hope that Place's are too. Because what's coming across is the reasoning of a callous schoolyard bully that seeks to excuse the collateral of her words and the words of her friends through condescending and patronising those hurt by them. Accusations of immaturity, lack of self-reflection, lack of self-regulation, lack of self-control. Anything to say that you can just continue on as you are without adjustment or your own self-reflection. Why are you so adamant that you're being the rational one Place? Why are you so invested in treating every naysayer in a way that I can only perceive as patronising and infantilising? From this position, as someone who was both a callous, arrogant and hate-filled brute and a vulnerable and tormented victim, it looks like you are the one who needs self-reflection.
 
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The inability to understand my use of italics and bolds is not on me, given that I lay out my precise usage and meaning of them in my signature for all to see. It is my attempt to translate spoken intonations to text to provide nuance and emotional context. Also, I do not believe I'm describing Place as 'evil'. I'm describing her as callous and dismissive. Uncaring in the choice of her words and lacking in the very self-reflection she tells others to use. That people are responding positively to such... heavy-handedness and lack of care frames the original essay in a more unflattering light, suggesting it was not lack of thought that caused the missteps, but lack of care in that a risk was perceived, yet dismissed as unimportant.

EDIT: I would like to clarify that I'm describing Place's behavior, not being. I am not stooping to the level of calling her a bad person, I'm trying to find a perspective that explains that she is acting without care, or not connecting the dots somehow. I do not comprehend how she got to this place.


how could someone be obscenely callous, dismissive, infantilizing, patronizing, cruel, hypocritical, worthy of moderator action, and likened to an abuser of children - and *not* be a bad person, or evil? you've described me as all these things - I'm quoting your words. i don't think that these accusations make a lot of sense.

on my end, i don't think you're a bad person - but i do think that you fundamentally misunderstand me, the essay, and the appropriateness of your behavior. for your health, and to avoid further derailing of the thread, i am going to stop interacting with you here. please feel free to DM me if you want to keep talking.
 
If that is the will of the Staff, very well. I do believe that I have done my best to play the ball and not the person, focusing on behavior that I interpret as done unthinkingly, not wilfully so I hope that line was not perceived by the Staff as to have been crossed.
 
Still, this is just speculation. We don't have Georgia; we have George.

Or do we? We have no guarantee – other than the stifling cisgenderism ruling over our understanding of history – that George Dornin didn't spend the rest of his life thinking back to that night, to that time wearing the dress and awkwardly moving through the first steps of the dance, of that aborted transition. Of course, he couldn't have gone further along its track: he had a life to live, and a life he was loath to abandon. What makes a society transphobic is not only individual acts of violence targeted against trans people, but also the way that the very foundations of that society are built so as to prevent trans lives from being lived. George had to know – even if he was not necessarily conscious of it – that there were consequences to staying in the dress; it's not difficult to imagine the rational, sad choice of putting it down, and living the rest of his heartbroken over what he was not allowed to become.

Or maybe that is just what Georgia wanted us to think, and the memoir is just one part of the larger ruse of a canny trans woman looking to avoid suspicion as she lived a double life of a Republican politician and a famed stage queen? It's hard to imagine, but it is not impossible: it is a part of the larger trans potential of history.

Then again, even if someday someone will unearth a photo album from a San Francisco cabaret, c. 1870, where Dornin performs as the queen of the night, it won't resolve the question one way or another. Maybe he wasn't trans; maybe he didn't think of himself as a woman; maybe he just liked the dress that much.

The point is this: he could have been a she, even if he wasn't. And I am personally haunted by Georgia Dornin, and the materials she'd have woven her trans femininity from.
Though this decision is not purely an internally motivated one, I don't consider myself an egg, or a trans person in the closet, even though it's entirely possible and maybe even likely that in some other world - one with fantastical magic or technology, different notions of gender, or simply a minor change to my personal history - that I would not be as I am. I live in the world as I live in it, and I think counterfactuals can only inform how I think of myself so much before they become meaningless. In some other world I would be a woman, or a man, or something else, or a tremendously lethal robot. Maybe even a catgirl. It doesn't have to matter. (Maybe it didn't matter to George Dornin, either.)

2.III Source: It Came To Me In A Dream

Because I'm bored and releasing my skepticism inhibitors a little bit and seeing what things bubble up when I accept posting stuff whose justification might as well be I Made It The Fuck Up dot mp4 is as fun as it is intellectually unsound uh, interesting, I'm going to write another essay. What is it that makes us want to be something? What is it that lets us obtain it? These are not, unfortunately, trivial questions. Similar questions motivate entire fields of research, like economics. But the economics of gender - and desire, and reproduction, and so many other social things, because they're entangled though not identical - are, at least below the graduate level, either farcical or very basic. I'll try and not be the former, though I don't think I can avoid the latter, because lmao, I am barely qualified for any of this at best and half of what I'm going to say is supposition and the other half is opinion.

2.III.a Cooking the Egg

Social goods do not make up a hydraulic system for an undifferentiated commodity below a certain, and possibly useless, level of abstraction. They are not water. Though, it's worth saying that they are not stone. Not always. Systemic pressures shape our gender and shape our choices about gender. The language of the closet and the egg, where sexuality and gender are some hidden variable, effectively immovable, are extremely useful for conveying the pain that making the choice to not live a trans life, a gay life, a queer life has upon some. Agency and choice are so often flattened, and with the particular dynamic of the free choice being the most valid target for restriction and recrimination, while the unfree choice needs to be accommodated - which, so framed, seems almost ironic even though I know the logic behind it - a painful, excruciating choice often has to be described as no choice at all for that pain to find relief from the larger system.

But this is philosophy, where someone can be free even in their cell, even under threat of death and pain. It's also more personally true to me - I don't see myself as trans, closeted or in an egg or otherwise. I have also seriously considered, at points, living a trans life. I may well do so in the future. I don't reflect on those considerations as being idle thoughts or mere dalliances, and in a nearby universe I might be contextualizing moments from my childhood, the entertainment I consume and my creative endeavours as being part of a trans journey. Those moments still exist, could still be contextualized in such a way. I wore dresses as a child, did drag and wore tights on stage, made female characters in RPGs, consumed specific genres of porn. I wear my hair long, I still dance when standing idly, I enjoy the length and thinness of my fingers. And given an arbitrary choice of bodies, it's unlikely I'd make one exactly like what I have, in any respect. That's not nothing. But it doesn't have to be something. It doesn't have to hurt me.

Now, to be clear, this is privilege. Not quite white or patriarchal privilege, per se, though I benefit from both and those benefits factor into my decisions, but the privilege of being born into a life where I am, if not free of want, if not living as my most ideal self, close enough to a local maxima of contentedness that my choice feels like a choice. My want does not drag me onward and outward, through rough terrain and economic slopes, to something difficult or even impossible to fully grasp. I won't claim that this is possible for everyone, or any moral superiority to me or those who made me. It just is what it is. I could live a trans life; I don't feel an egg.

One of the issues with breaking away from egg/closet frame is that it can simultaneously feel like letting society off the hook for everything it does and being the libertine who will drag the movement down by promoting bestiality or sex with minors at Pride. In the broadest sense, it's inevitable that the structures of society will shape what sorts of lives are seen as possible. Does that mean a society which makes trans lives difficult, painful and short should be left off the hook? This is an awful conclusion for anyone, but particularly for someone who doesn't feel the eggshell cutting into them, to argue for. Does it mean all modes of living should be supported? Leaving aside the moral smears which I'm sure we're all familiar with, let's once again make things personal. If I want to be a multi-billion dollar human-shaped war-machine - and no, that's not an attack helicopter joke, it's me saying A Stranger I Remain is a trans anthem - and I'm not living in a society with the approximate resources of God, it's hard for me to say that this want should be satisfied. On the other hand, lower the budget and this becomes a transphobic bon mot about access to care.

For the people who most need advocacy, who most want to live queer lives, the closet and the egg are useful frameworks, and definitely useful tools to short-circuit the complexities that can blunt the real moral urgency of changing the status quo. I'm privileged, I don't need such advocacy, I've found an equilibrium - my gender is hydraulic. Other people have genders of stone. Solidity is a function of pressure.

2.III.b Gender Volcanism

Right around when Joe Biden was elected President of the United States, there was a... meme, for lack of a better word, going around, that the President-Elect was going to round up the masculine/right-wing/unvaccinated and forcefem them. Many jokes were had, at least among those I hang out with, about signing up for the feminization camps, or how (unintentionally?) eager some of the fear-mongering seemed. Of course, it didn't actually happen. Unless, of course, you want to consider the entire structure of present (WASP) society a system to forcefem those assigned female at birth and forcemasc those assigned male at birth, plus whichever intersex people get caught in the gears. This isn't yet opposed to the logic of the egg, where people have a hidden variable saying what they are, but it does make me think - if our present world is a forcing system, and presumably the world of Joe Biden's Forcefem Camps is too (for most people), let us try to imagine the liberated system, where every hidden variable comes to light.

It's... pretty difficult to do. When do systems of incentive and disincentive turn coercive, or make people inauthentic to who they 'really are'? Someone like George Dornin, for a night, could be cajoled, bribed or (maybe) even tempted into stepping into the role of a woman. If stepping into that role for a lifetime, perhaps in a place dominated by men (but perhaps not), meant being esteemed, or cared for, or desired, (or simply paid) in ways one would not as a man, is that a mechanism which pushes people into a new closet, the way the risk of losing those things - the love of a family, the acceptance of a community - keeps people in their current ones? The philosopher in me says there might not be a difference in any way that matters.

He also says the difference is pain. It doesn't have to matter, under this view, whether the shape you're in is you in a transcendental sense. Just whether it hurts to hold, that you feel yourself like a rock lodged in your heart, when you want to be fluid, to flow to a new equilibrium. This... only kind of solves our problem. Pain can be treated in many ways; cry into stacks of money, great social esteem for successfully struggling against your desires, drugging it down... okay maybe not the last one. Anyway, a society which offers those as solutions over transitioning might have dealt with the pain, but uh, possibly in an unsatisfactory manner. It's not making trans lives possible. But if pain is the point, then that's only an issue if it's causing a surfeit of pain. Thanks for nothing, philosopher.

Further, how much pain, and of what sort, needs to be accounted for? If it can be accounted for, as interior as the experience of it is. Look too hard for measures of pain and you reach ghoulish arguments which say transitioning ought to be painful - after all, if pain is incommensurable, then it can only be measured against itself. Let those and only those whose lives hurt them more than tedious, infuriating searches for medical opinions, cruel bureaucracy and transphobia transition; that they're willing to suffer all that proves they are escaping a pain which is great enough. Their gender is a hot, sharp stone in their chest. It is volcanic, ready to liquefy.

It's here to explode. Give them some hormones.

2.III.c Everything You Want Is On The Other Side Of HRT

Let's try and circle back; meeting literary theory half-way or not, I do like theses. What makes a gender desirable? Does it even make sense to want gender, like it's a single thing? In my previous post I considered the mode of trans living where all I did was work to be referred to by a different set of a pronouns. Specifically online, but in this case the context is less important than the want. In the actual world, pronouns aren't simply short placeholder words, even in English's rather stripped out grammar. Refer to someone as 'she' and things are connoted, associations are pulled. There's almost certainly an interesting study about how people react differently to a story just by swapping those little words around, I wouldn't know, I'm a philosopher, sources are for other people. Imagine instead that they were merely words. How satisfying would gaining their use be, if it didn't come with other people thinking some things about you, or associating with you differently? We see this pulled as a transphobic tactic, even, whenever somebody gets it into their head to abandon their trenches at 'man' and 'woman' and try to move everything over to some other term like 'double-x chromosome haver' or whatever. Sure, you can have those terms - but only stripped of all meaning.

It never works, but the impulse is there, and so is the anger at the impulse. The anger is to an extent about just what the act demonstrates about the priorities and opinions of those attempting it, but also, I think, because the act itself is a cause for anger. An attempt, however futile, of taking away of more than pronouns and the word 'woman', but all the - imagine me gesturing vaguely and broadly - stuff associated with it. Being 'her' is not enough, the want is to be her (or him, or them, or etc.), the imaginary person who lives in... the brain? The heart? The gut? I don't know. But let's consider that person: who they are, how they live, how people treat them. They aren't just a pronoun and a word, are they - I know mine isn't. How do the feelings about that person change if you change their environment - a world with no people, a world with accepting people, a world with hateful people, a world with worshipful people, with people like them or unlike them? A transphobic world which, just as that person becomes who you see in the mirror, decides to take their ball and go home; everyone's welcome at Ladies' Night and all the bathrooms are unisex. Does that person change? Do they move nearer or further away? Is it even right to talk about just one inner person?

If George Dornin's settler ballroom had never ended, would a Georgia have been found, in the heart and gut under that calico dress?

2.III.d oh i guess this is the crash part of this writing style

Wow I hated writing that section, and I hate reading it. Good lord where is the point?

Ugh.

I suppose all of this essay is to say the logic of the egg and the closet frames society as, essentially, an antagonistic actor. It makes shit worse. It fucks you up. It boxes you in. Which is... true, yeah. Two word summary: society bad. Frankly I don't know, if you were describing queer lives to an alien, how many words your summary would be before it'd stop being 100% negative about society. But if we talk about the society to be created, which might be created in miniature, here and there and everywhere, or even just the selves to be created, past that moment of volcanism and into shaping the flowing rock, I don't think the egg and the closet remain helpful. The neutral ground does not exist: the potentiality for lives isn't something that can just be opened up to reveal something true and transcendental. Society can't stop shaping the forms of what we want.

Is that a good enough thesis? Ugh. Feels a bit pedestrian after some of those turns of phrase. Anyway, just to repeat that basically all of this is opinion, however florid the prose, and if you say 'that's not my experience' I will 100% absolutely not argue with you.

God, let me never write another essay in this style, I'll take misuse of set theory over this any day of the week.
 
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Uh

Okay so I have a question and I feel like... idk?

But like... I don't get it? I don't understand the thesis statement of the essay?

Like, the argument is, as far as I can determine, that some extremely online trans women come from other extremely online communities, and probably still have hangovers from them, and arguably those aren't even 'hangovers' and the presentation of these girls as being either not 'really' women or being a sort of evolutionary stage towards 'actual' trans femininity is unfair to them?

Is that right? Because I sometimes think its right and I sometimes think I conjured it out of whole cloth and its not related to the essay at all?

And then, like... What does that have to do with the bit at the start about how boys dress up as girls when there aren't any girls? Even assuming the kinda sorta jab at SV is, like, some deeper point (which I also don't understand? Its raised to be dismissed because... uhm?) I don't see how these different things tie together? The whole history bit seems like it doesn't connect to the rest?

Like even the people who don't like the essay seem to understand it more than I do?
This is sorta where I'm at. This essay is something I'd sorta characterize as "in need of a point" for a large chunk of it. And the fact that she purposely choose jarring transitions between her arguments just makes it even harder to grasp. I read the entire thing and having a day to think about it, I'm just struck by the impression that you could cut 90% of it and achieve the same effect.
 
A friend who read it believes that your take on incels is incorrect from their personal experience dealing with them. In their view they are entirely separate from the rest of the manosphere, and say that incels' don't consider 'chads' real men, they consider them more 'subhuman brutes' who they dehumanise, while extending that dehumanisation to the women who 'choose' them. 'An incel believes himself the only true man and the only true human', in their words. They do not seek to be the chad, because they believe themselves superior 'intellectual' creatures. They believe themselves perfect, and that the rest of the world is wrong. This entitlement leads to 'a deep sense of victimisation and betrayal' when the world does not behave as they think it should, which drives their violence. Manosphere 'bros' who talk about alpha/beta/etc are entirely different in their belief system and eggs (at least, crackable eggs)/trans women are rare because the belief system is antithetical.

They also echo Cadis in that they believe a large portion of the essay could be cut without actually losing anything. They consider actually engaging a waste of time (I think they do not derive joy from internet arguments) but I felt their insights were useful criticisms.
 
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A friend who read it believes that your take on incels is incorrect from their personal experience dealing with them. In their view they are entirely separate from the rest of the manosphere, and say that incels' don't consider 'chads' real men, they consider them more 'subhuman brutes' who they dehumanise, while extending that dehumanisation to the women who 'choose' them. 'An incel believes himself the only true man and the only true human', in their words. They do not seek to be the chad, because they believe themselves superior 'intellectual' creatures. They believe themselves perfect, and that the rest of the world is wrong. This entitlement leads to 'a deep sense of victimisation and betrayal' when the world does not behave as they think it should, which drives their violence. Manosphere 'bros' who talk about alpha/beta/etc are entirely different in their belief system and eggs (at least, crackable eggs)/trans women are rare because the belief system is antithetical.

They also echo Cadis in that they believe a large portion of the essay could be cut without actually losing anything. They consider actually engaging a waste of time (I think they do not derive joy from internet arguments) but I felt their insights were useful criticisms.

The manosphere is defined by it's loose collection of websites that are centralized in misogyny and promoting various forums of toxic masculinity. It is no different then pointing out that the Fathers' rights groups or the MGTOW don't think about "chads" the same way either in their various discourses. It is not to say that they are separate; there are distinct factions within that often bicker. As implied even within Garg's essay, we should perhaps let go of the more rigid technical hierarchy of definitions here. The "Chad" discourse is a common one on the usual vectors for one to fall towards inceldom or pick up artists; ones you don't see commonly in other sectors of the manosphere.

Additionally, it's important to remember much of the essay is concerned with the process of these narratives of identity. See again the take that Catgirls are stereotyped as an immature state; or the egg narrative itself, rather then being thought of as a potential reality of a stable state; albeit, I'd argue as others have said before that identity is not always so rigid in its form.

Unrelated, I've been trying to write up a thought about how nerdom acts as a loose filter for those experiencing anomie (but without a belief in normativity being necessarily great), but I cringe at myself trying to write it because I sound like someone having just discovered Durkheim and so I have been unable to sort those thoughts out.

Relatedly to the initial discussion above though, I would ask the thread, though not to give stories to take over the discussion, to reflect just how much you've got to places of the internet that are vectors for much of the language of these very online positions that we talk about. Have many of us have gone to the chans in our youth? Hung out on certain reddits, RPG forums, and science fiction? In fact, it's not hard to see the fracturing of space battles and then of small groups off of there and SV into the same thing, but this time with blackjack and their specific sometimes oedius politics. We've got like, what, 2 right wing mini-attempts to make their own mega-forum that was meant to ape SB and SV?

So I'd think sitting and reflecting on just how much we've all been in those shared spaces, as it might be relevant to the OP's essay.
 
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I don't know what precise incel spaces everyone is thinking of, when they talk about this comparison, but the one I'm familiar with personally would be... basically 4chan?

Which did in fact have a weird mix of the two groups. How people in /r9k/ would talk about themselves when posting selfies or bemoaning their prospects, when they would insult eachother and tear eachother down... a ton of that culture was reflected in the MtF general over on /lgbt/. And obviously, if you're comparing those groups, that is the best case example - /lgbt/ is going to have the most online, the most bitter, the most toxic of queer people. It was a rough place back in 2013, when I was there, and I'm almost certain it's gotten worse over time, but... the communities there did have a lot of threads in common. The specific ways they would crab bucket and attack eachothers looks, commiserating about how passing and transitioning was impossible, telling eachother to give up... Those were the toxic elements that you could easily see in the other boards too. "You will never be loved as a woman" is the same kind of self hate as "you will never be loved by a woman", really. It isn't a conclusion you come to rationally, it's a bitter sharp part of your heart lashing out in despair in basically the same way.

The manosphere was a lot less distinct of a thing back then, maybe the community has changed, I dont' know. But on a few occasions, when I reached out to someone on /r9k/ who seemed particularly sad and self loathing, and could email them away from the bubble of that culture... they didn't seem that alien or strange, to me. The same hurts, the same disbelief in the self. It was easy to be empathetic, even if they had awful opinions or had reached incredibly sexist conclusions. I've never known what that says about me, really.
 
I think one of the things that isn't often recognized is just how separate female and male versions of entertainment actually are. Transwomen often end up drawing mostly from male version entertainment rather than female version for their ideal.
 
I think one of the things that isn't often recognized is just how separate female and male versions of entertainment actually are. Transwomen often end up drawing mostly from male version entertainment rather than female version for their ideal.

Or in other words...

Catgirl GF: "Hurt me, mistress."
Me: "Fallout: New Vegas has no special appeal to transwomen. It was just a hugely popular game played by a lot of boys who are now in their 20s, which is an age where lots of transwomen discover themselves."
Catgirl GF: "Stop."
 
Or in other words...

Catgirl GF: "Hurt me, mistress."
Me: "Fallout: New Vegas has no special appeal to transwomen. It was just a hugely popular game played by a lot of boys who are now in their 20s, which is an age where lots of transwomen discover themselves."
Catgirl GF: "Stop."
With the reasonable caveat that I feel like RPGs with blank slate character creators which allow you to select a gender and inhabit it in play are more likely to feel meaningful to depressed closeted or future trans women.
 
With the reasonable caveat that I feel like RPGs with blank slate character creators which allow you to select a gender and inhabit it in play are more likely to feel meaningful to depressed closeted or future trans women.

I thought about doing a second "me" line going into that and how gender selection is an appeal, but not in any way particular to FNV and could be found in many other games of the era that remain popular but don't have the same reputation of appeal as FNV, like the Mass Effect series, but I couldn't find the right comedic beat for it.
 
Or in other words...

Catgirl GF: "Hurt me, mistress."
Me: "Fallout: New Vegas has no special appeal to transwomen. It was just a hugely popular game played by a lot of boys who are now in their 20s, which is an age where lots of transwomen discover themselves."
Catgirl GF: "Stop."

OTOH I do actually think that there are some male aimed media that tends to have more crossover appeal with transwoman than others. I'm not an expert enough in fallout new vegas to say why that it was one of them rather than say, Mass Effect or Fallout 3, but still.
 
OTOH I do actually think that there are some male aimed media that tends to have more crossover appeal with transwoman than others. I'm not an expert enough in fallout new vegas to say why that it was one of them rather than say, Mass Effect or Fallout 3, but still.

Fallout: New Vegas is perhaps more on the "cult classic" end of the scale of hugely popular than "massively successful franchise", which makes it harder to entertain the idea that FNV is uniquely a transwoman thing and not just a game everyone enjoys that also lets you play a woman: you're going to be constantly confronted with the fact lots of cis people enjoyed the Mass Effect series too, whereas FNV was popular among nerds in the early 2010s but not to the degree that you're constant reminded of just how many cis people (many of them fuckboys) played it.

Which like, if you try to think about FNV as a "trans" game, you do have to come to terms with just how many cis fuckboys played the same game as you and came away liking it and, pertinent to @Gargulec essay, thinking that actually the pseudofascist slavers (and to a lesser degree the jingoist Republican cosplayers) were actually kind of cool. That's the thought that kind of spurred workshopping the joke in my head in the first place.

Well, that and a very silly reply to Abigail Thorn's tweet that read:
Fallout New Vegas will have you question political philosophies in a logistical context and think about how they would have real impacts on a world.

NV makes you think like a leftist which helps you come to terms with it if you are trans in a way character creation alone can't.

I think the appeal of FNV to transwomen lie primarily in the fact it's a fondly remembered game with a high replay value going through its scheduled nostalgia peak. Fallout: New Vegas' biggest appeal to transwomen is that it appealed to nerdy boys.
 
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I do think that games that let you create an avatar to embody on your own terms have a kinda... innate appeal? To trans people above and beyond in some ways? There's a subset of trans girls of a certain ethnic and class background who were very active in those nerd spaces and they do tend to share similar experiences around certain nerd media that are, probably, a bit more specific than things that were popular.

In NV's case is something about having an alter that is not just a character to play as, but an alternate self you created that, I think, draws trans people to that subgenre? The game is remembered fondly for having a wide space to roleplay I think, and that can help sell that fantasy.

And, that doesn't lead to a kind of causal connection from NV to being trans obviously. It's not a great predictor of transness. There simply are very few trans people compared to cis ones, so obviously most things, even ones where a lot of the enduring appeal is much more avowedly trans than NV, will still have afar wider cis than trans audience.

Tumblr, for instance, has been called a trans technology because, in many ways, the features it offers are uniquely hospitable for trans people. That, in the fashion the essay asks of to think of potentiality, can be real without making everyone who remembers Tumblr secretly trans.
 
Well then your friend should post in the thread, if they'd like to contribute. This is a web forum, not a party where we play broken telephone.
They don't want to contribute to the discussion in this thread. I thought that their insights as related to me in a private conversation had value in the context of the discussion and related them, but did not wish to pretend that I was the one who invented them.
 
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