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[Nanoha/Vividred] All the colours of the Earth

[X] Interrogate Yuuno on Nanoha and Hayate's issues, demand that he do something about it. Even if he can't tell the adults about it, he can help fix things here.
[X] Make him teach the two of them and test everyone for magic ability, we'll need it if we're going to help him.
[X] Find out the source of the 'noise' problem.
[X] Ask him why the Jewel Seed will go after him, and if we can use him as bait while looking into other stuff.
[X] We'll help him with his Jewel Seed problem, as long as he promises to look into the sick children afterwards. We won't go to the adults yet, but if there is a solution he'll have to provide it. If he can fix it for Nanoha and Hayate, he can fix it for the others.

Get his cooperation and help first, we can solve the world's problems and the masquerade later, friends and tentacle monsters first.
 
Why do we need his cooperation/help anyway for everyone? Just have him teach us those magical exercises. Once we have the knowledge, it doesn't matter what he does- he can go off in his magical spaceship for all we care. Unless I'm misunderstanding, it's teaching people how to set up a little telepathic barrier, something that anyone with any power can do. If most humans don't have the magic to do even that, well, I'm sure we can work on something.

"Interrogate" and "demand" are not how we secure Yunno's cooperation, anyway. The best way to secure his cooperation is to give him an out for his superior officers in the TSAB.
Also, don't we basically already know the source of the 'noise' problem? Why are we voting to do that?

Since we're not going to finish with the Jewel seeds by the time the TSAB show up (almost certainly) then asking him to help everyone won't really matter since he'll probably be taken back to civilization in the Asura (or equivalent ship that carries the TSAB initially).
 
notgreat said:
Also, don't we basically already know the source of the 'noise' problem? Why are we voting to do that?
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Engine Sickness is well known to be caused by the, well, Engine.

There was massive controversy about that, a few years back. All power sources have victims, but usually they're mostly people who've chosen to work there - modulo economic conditions - not, well, random children. The manifestation engine is the next best thing to being powered by a forsaken child, and don't think people are happy with it. There was never any hope of keeping the situation secret, either; the statistical pattern of engine sickness is glaringly obvious.

However, by the time they'd put things together, most of the victims were already dead.

It turned into a political shitstorm. Of course it did, but shutting down the manifestation engine wasn't really on the table. From an ethical point of view, the damage was already done; the dead were dead, and ~95% of the remaining victims recovered after being moved away from the Engine. In most cases that meant moving to the USA or Europe, either of which is far enough away for noise to be a minor annoyance rather than an overpowering Noise of Doom; minor enough that a well-functioning brain would adjust to filter it out, even if they hadn't figured out some 'mental exercise' or other that kept it down. That's as opposed to going back to coal, where tens of thousands of people (seriously) die every year to mine the stuff, to say nothing of the sheer amount of suffering and death caused by the resulting pollution.

People wouldn't normally be receptive to that kind of argument, but the politicians also had strong reasons to prefer the manifestation engine to other power sources, and the ones who were actually seriously hurt by it - that is to say, Japan - are also the ones who gained the most by keeping the engine running, so they leaned heavily on those lines of reasoning. For what it's worth, it's accurate; this probably is the best choice. Nuclear power wouldn't have the same problem, but, well, perception... and anyway, it does cause some deaths, so the Engine is still probably preferable. Of course, all the parents involved got generous compensation packages to keep a lid on their complaints.

So that's a thing. For what it's worth, the under-construction second Engine is being built in the middle of the pacific ocean, and they're planning to build the third - larger one - on the Moon, with the two on Earth being shut down and kept as spares once it's done.

To answer a different question:

<Suzuka> Hmm? I have no idea what you're talking about. The Engine makes electricity, which is generally transferred using microwave transceiver satellites, though they're planning to build the second Engine at the base of an orbital elevator to avoid atmospheric power loss for at least the first stretch. It's really exciting!
 
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Interesting, but why is Nanoha still in Japan? Does she hide her relapses from her parents?
 
Guys: How do we feel about taking a field trip to the Engine, utilizing our ninja skills and dimensional shenanigans to get Yuuno close, and seeing if we can filter out the "Aberrant L-mode carrier wave?"

pressea said:
For starters, Raging Heart is probably 5D at least. Like that diagram Arisa stared at. Can't duplicate that with a mere 3D printer.
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Maybe RH has specs installed, a construction manual.
 
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Olivebirdy said:
We'd be in a different dimension. Yuuno is able to set up Dimensional Barriers that only magic-user can get into.
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That'd certainly solve the "well defended" problem in terms of getting in, but it leaves the problems of
1) Possible changes to output
2) The magic engine not reacting well with the barrier (imagine what would happen if the engine counts as sufficiently magical to be brought into the barrier instead of copied)
3) You have to go back into realspace to set up the barriers, presumably.
4) The barriers have to be invisible, intangible, and long-lasting.
5) People will notice the change. Imagine if it, say, makes people think that Engines are safe after a certain time period? People will spend a lot of resources to try and figure out why people have started not getting sick.

Instead, spread knowledge on how to set up a personal-scale barrier against it. That's far easier, less likely to break something, and won't be immediately obvious that something has happened that's internationally important. Instead it's two girls who are spreading word on how they've managed to beat Engine Sickness through mental exercises and the POWER OF FRIENDSHIP.

Heck, I wouldn't be too surprised to see Precia's backstory modified to be working on a magic engine very similar to this one, giving Alicia a super-bad case of Engine Sickness.
 
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Baughn said:
It's why they're clingy. Feel free to work out the psychological consequences.
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Sort of like emotional/tactile siamese twins? Even if this adventure with Yuuno leads to a more permanent solution to dealing with "E S", Nanoha and Hayate will be joined at the hip for a good while. The fact that BoD will worsen Hayate's condition probably will make them cling all the more. Maybe Nanoha will try to find a way to support Hayate magically? Would that accelerate the "Doom Process?"

Since it looks like "The Book" is still around, the dynamics of the Wolkenritter and their "mistresses" should be interesting. The whole antagonistic angle between the WR/Hayate, and Nanoha-tachi of the original looks to be short-circuited.

But yeah, speaking of the two in one breath "Nanoha and Hayate", or "Hayate and Nanoha" looks like a thing. I wonder if they'll ever "discover boys", as bound to each other as they seem.
 
notgreat said:
Instead it's two girls who are spreading word on how they've managed to beat Engine Sickness through mental exercises and the POWER OF FRIENDSHIP.
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no dont

Keep Nanoha under the radar as much as possible. Besides, I'm sure they were already questioned quite heavily by people wondering how they recovered and such when they displayed the mental exercises in the first place. If them telling what they could do was going to help, it already would have.
 
pressea said:
no dont

Keep Nanoha under the radar as much as possible. Besides, I'm sure they were already questioned quite heavily by people wondering how they recovered and such when they displayed the mental exercises in the first place. If them telling what they could do was going to help, it already would have.
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Largely correct. Of course, they could try claiming they've figured out something else now. It would even be sort of true.
notgreat said:
3) You have to go back into realspace to set up the barriers, presumably.
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I've been thinking about this. The barriers' canon behaviour makes relatively little sense, physically speaking; there are ways to make them possible, but the implied tech level clashes with what is otherwise demonstrated, and I'll note that said barriers do not appear in StrikerS or later. Admittedly there could be administrative reasons for that, but on the whole they appear to be an appendix of the first two seasons' uncertainty about whether they were SF or fantasy. This story, as with every story I write, is of course SF.

In this story, Yuuno's oh-so-handy "No-one will spot you fighting" barriers are not a thing. They do not exist. Teleportation magic does, and of course RH is capable of that; it can be used for some of the same purposes. I'd suggest making your plans accordingly.
 
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Baughn said:
I've been thinking about this. The barriers' canon behaviour makes relatively little sense, physically speaking; there are ways to make them possible, but the implied tech level clashes with what is otherwise demonstrated, and I'll note that said barriers do not appear in StrikerS or later. Admittedly there could be administrative reasons for that, but...
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Seems to me it'd be pretty useless in Strikers since most of the population is magical anyway, and it doesn't exactly prevent structural damage(which the TSAB had to spend a lot of effort to repair at the end of As before the barrier fell). As for mode of operation, probably works by shunting nonmagicals into a small dimension before merging the changes.

Narratively it just lets Nanoha fling around giant laser cannonades without killing thousands with the collateral.
 
veekie said:
As for mode of operation, probably works by shunting nonmagicals into a small dimension before merging the changes.

Narratively it just lets Nanoha fling around giant laser cannonades without killing thousands with the collateral.
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Speaking as the one trying to implement that on some sort of laws of physics, without involving gods... it's possible, but too damn hard compared to everything else we've been shown. I think the story will be more interesting without 'em.

I like actions having consequences, anyway. :)
 
pressea said:
no dont

Keep Nanoha under the radar as much as possible. Besides, I'm sure they were already questioned quite heavily by people wondering how they recovered and such when they displayed the mental exercises in the first place. If them telling what they could do was going to help, it already would have.
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Yeah, the FRIENDSHIP thing was what they already had. And now they're doing new "mental exercises" (spells) that work better. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

And why should Nanoha be under the radar? It's Yuuno who needs to stay under the radar since the TSAB will not be happy if he interferes. It should be noted that the currently-winning vote involves us "demanding he do something about it", something that seems more likely to backfire than to just have him teach us and then spread the teachings.

Heck, if you really want to stay under the radar, just post the info anonymously on the internet. As long as at least one person with Engine Sickness picks it up and tries it, then the info will spread fairly quickly.


Baughn said:
Speaking as the one trying to implement that on some sort of laws of physics, without involving gods... it's possible, but too damn hard compared to everything else we've been shown. I think the story will be more interesting without 'em.

I like actions having consequences, anyway. :)
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Not going to complain, but it seems fairly easy to implement since the laws of magic can be arbitrarily defined (laws of magic are in this context a subset of the laws of physics). Especially since you can always just have it be some ancient, poorly-documented spell like what the familiar ritual presumably is (the thing that made Arf)

The distinguishing characteristic is pretty easy too: if the object has a linker core of sufficient size then it's brought in.

No arguments on the narrative front though, so that will make things... interesting. Is it possible to make a spell identify the target as it's hitting? (EG laser beamspams that automatically cancel themselves if they're hitting something nonmagical)
 
notgreat said:
That'd certainly solve the "well defended" problem in terms of getting in, but it leaves the problems of
1) Possible changes to output
2) The magic engine not reacting well with the barrier (imagine what would happen if the engine counts as sufficiently magical to be brought into the barrier instead of copied)
3) You have to go back into realspace to set up the barriers, presumably.
4) The barriers have to be invisible, intangible, and long-lasting.
5) People will notice the change. Imagine if it, say, makes people think that Engines are safe after a certain time period? People will spend a lot of resources to try and figure out why people have started not getting sick.

Instead, spread knowledge on how to set up a personal-scale barrier against it. That's far easier, less likely to break something, and won't be immediately obvious that something has happened that's internationally important. Instead it's two girls who are spreading word on how they've managed to beat Engine Sickness through mental exercises and the POWER OF FRIENDSHIP.

Heck, I wouldn't be too surprised to see Precia's backstory modified to be working on a magic engine very similar to this one, giving Alicia a super-bad case of Engine Sickness.
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1) Worth getting Yuuno close to check, if we don't, we won't know
2) Again, this is Yuuno's area of expertise. Worst case, we arrange the border so the machine is not inside. Either geometrically, staying away from it, or magically, seeing what Yuuno has to say.
3) We might have to go into realspace, yes. I'm sure there's an unguarded broom closet somewhere. We might not have to. Again, up to Yuuno.
4) Yuuno might need materials. Let's ask him.
5) Ok, so people have stopped getting sick, this can mean that people can stop worrying about it, so they don't need to put funds into researching it, or they do want to research and they don't find the shield, or they research and they find the shield. Two of these are not a problem. If they do find the shield, that's only as bad as the fact that girls have beat the Engine sickness through the power of friendship.(In the other path.)
The problems with the other path are A. Betrayal of Yuuno. Not to mention, he won't want to help anymore. B. Dissemination of magical theory. That's just as bad as leaving a shield. If you don't want the info publicly available, then we'd have to personally go to everyone who has the sickness.
 
notgreat said:
Is it possible to make a spell identify the target as it's hitting? (EG laser beamspams that automatically cancel themselves if they're hitting something nonmagical)
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It's possible, though a spell like that would be unreliable and - importantly - easy for your actual target to disrupt. "Stunning" spells depend more on judging the defences of your target, then hitting the narrow band between overloading the barrier jacket and outright killing them.
 
notgreat said:
Not going to complain, but it seems fairly easy to implement since the laws of magic can be arbitrarily defined (laws of magic are in this context a subset of the laws of physics). Especially since you can always just have it be some ancient, poorly-documented spell like what the familiar ritual presumably is (the thing that made Arf)
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The "Al Hazard did it" option, sure. :p

I'll admit there are ways to make it work. For starters, I don't expect anyone would object if I never explained it. Still... I already watched Nanoha; let's do something new here. :)
 
Olivebirdy said:
If they do find the shield, that's only as bad as the fact that girls have beat the Engine sickness through the power of friendship.(In the other path.)
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It's the difference between some people finding a mental exercise to prevent sickness and someone getting into a highly secure location and doing something to it. One is a pair of innovative and lucky individuals (or just the info spreading online and no one knowing where it came from) and the other is something that basically demands a deep investigation.
The problems with the other path are A. Betrayal of Yuuno. Not to mention, he won't want to help anymore. B. Dissemination of magical theory. That's just as bad as leaving a shield. If you don't want the info publicly available, then we'd have to personally go to everyone who has the sickness.
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Huh? We ask him to teach us. Unless he actively goes looking for the fact that we spread the information, he won't ever know (assuming we do it anonymously online). Plus, Yuuno's much more worried about him being punished since the TSAB are like the Star Trek Federation with its non-interference policy.
And we don't teach the theory, just the single spell. Sure, in a few years people might figure out how to do magic based on that, but you basically have to make our Earth have really low powered mages or else it wouldn't make any sense why we didn't develop the magic tech tree, so it probably won't be that disruptive.


And more importantly, is the time issue. Solving the Engine problem is likely to take quite a while. While we're doing that, the Jewel Seeds are out there rampaging around. Honestly, solving the Seed crisis is more important than solving the Engine problem. Teaching us one spell is probably a lot easier than setting up a large-scale telepathic blocker in a secure location, and a lot less likely to get Yuuno prosecuted once he returns to civilization.
 
Honestly, dissemination of magic theory ~right now~ doesn't matter too much. Chances are pretty high Earth is going to notice Real Quick that there's some stuff that needs investigating with the changes to barriers.

And we've already seen how Yuuno stands up to interrogation. Admittedly, that was interrogation by friendly, curious kids his own age, but still.
 
pressea said:
Honestly, dissemination of magic theory ~right now~ doesn't matter too much. Chances are pretty high Earth is going to notice Real Quick that there's some stuff that needs investigating with the changes to barriers.

And we've already seen how Yuuno stands up to interrogation. Admittedly, that was interrogation by friendly, curious kids his own age, but still.
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True enough. Still, the current vote feels almost hostile to Yuuno. Maybe it's just me.

On a side note, anyone interested in how they call it Higgs-field branes? That means either their translators are ridiculously awesome or they've studied us extensively. (Or they randomly named it after one of our physicists)
 
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