[X] Death
-[X] "Draw," you call out, and you let your hand go whisper slow to your holstered pistol. It's not a fair fight, you won't pretend to that. But you doubt he's ever been in a fair fight in his life; he had other people to do that for him, while he reaped the profits. You'll at least let him die with steel in hand.
[X] Death
-[X] "Draw," you call out, and you let your hand go whisper slow to your holstered pistol. It's not a fair fight, you won't pretend to that. But you doubt he's ever been in a fair fight in his life; he had other people to do that for him, while he reaped the profits. You'll at least let him die with steel in hand.
Not like we can enforce restitution, he'd just flee offworld asap if he's still scared or triple security and we have to kill them all again
Scheduled vote count started by Maugan Ra on May 20, 2024 at 12:28 PM, finished with 85 posts and 52 votes.
[X] Death
-[X] "Draw," you call out, and you let your hand go whisper slow to your holstered pistol. It's not a fair fight, you won't pretend to that. But you doubt he's ever been in a fair fight in his life; he had other people to do that for him, while he reaped the profits. You'll at least let him die with steel in hand.
[X] Death
-[x] "Stand," the Last and First said, and then shot him in one knee. "Stand," he said, and shot him in the other kneecap. "You've demanded more from those you've hurt, with less cause. Stand, though your body is broken, stand on your two feet, oh honored Fane. Stand and die with a gun in your hand."
[X] Restitution -[X] "No more bondsmen or women. Only folks paid a fair wage that can come and go as they please without getting hunted by your hounds."
Hmmm, I think I would like some clarification from the QM. @Maugan Ra would you be able to tell us the mechanics of intimidating someone and if we got decent successes on a social check just how far will they go and how long will they stick to any agreement after being thoroughly scared shitless?
But I can explain the mechanics behind social combat/influence in the system of Exalted: Essence and explain how Last and First would have to go about trying to make Orthlack do what he wants in the hypothetical world where he didn't paint the wall with the man's brains
(Keeping in mind that as the QM Maugan could alter or ignore these rules anytime he wants to if he feels they get in the way)
Virtues and Intimacies
Significant Characters may have virtues and intimacies, aspects of her life which are the most important to her, and personality traits that define how she engages with the world. In Exalted, these are Virtues and Intimacies. Virtues define what drives a character and how she acts, creating a worldview and defining how she engages with every other part of her life. Intimacies define what the character cares most about in her life.
Together, Virtues and Intimacies define what a character values, and how she acts to uphold those things. Social interactions are a give and take between character's Virtues and Intimacies and getting someone to act requires appealing to their fundamental desires.
Virtues and Intimacies come in two intensities, Major and Minor. As a general rule of thumb, if the Virtue or Intimacy are important values that the character tries to align with where possible, but not a defining trait that factors into nearly every major decision she makes, then its Minor.
Exalted: Essence has 7 Virtues: Ambition, Compassion, Courage, Discipline, Justice, Loyalty and Wonder. And they are extra resilient compared to Intimacies.
A Virtue isn't just what drives a character to act, it defines what kinds of actions she'll take to accomplish a goal or deal with a situation. Her Virtues color everything she does and explain where her impulses come from and her base reactions to any situation.
Virtues are defining features a character isn't going to leave behind or abandon on a whim. The only way to change a character's Virtue is through a story that changes the character's fundamental nature. There are no social mechanics to represent this, because the life upending process of a Loyal character suffering soul crushing betrayal and shifting her Virtue to Justice, or a wide-eyed adventurer having the Wonder ground out of them by a cold and unforgiving world and shifting to Courage is not something that's covered by a simple social confrontation.
Ambition and Loyalty are also slightly unique. If a character has a Virtue of Ambition or Loyalty then they also define what precisely their Ambition is or what they are specifically Loyal to. For example, Ambition (Become the Greatest Swordsman Alive) or Loyalty (The Mask of Winters)
A character's Intimacies define what she cares most about in life, from her relationships with others to her beliefs and ambitions. While Virtues drive how a character acts and views the world, Intimacies are concrete people, goals, or ideals the character values and will act to protect. They come in two categories, if the Intimacy represents how the character feels about another person then it is a Tie, if the Intimacy represents a personal goal, ambition or code of conduct then it is a Principle.
All Intimacies are tied to one of the character's Virtues and viewed through the lens of that Virtue, it helps describe how the character relates to the Intimacy and what she'll do to defend it. For instance, if a character has a Justice Virtue, then intimacies tied to Justice are bound up in righting wrongs or seeking revenge and she perceives people in her life as someone to be protected from wrongdoing.
Specific Intimacies may come and go. People can grow apart, find new interests, take up new causes, or fall in and out of love.
Social Influence
Whenever a character interacts with another to make them act in a way that she wants, she is using social influence. Social influence is the act of persuading, intimidating, coercing, seducing, commanding, or any other action to get someone to do what you want without involving direct violence.
When a character tries to influence another, they roll the appropriate Attribute + Ability against the target's Resolve. For PC's base Resolve is 2 modified by Integrity score. If the target has at least one dot in Integrity then her Resolve is 3, if she has at least three dots then her Resolve is 4. Antagonists, who do not have an Integrity score, have a set amount of Resolve based on how much of a social stonewall they are meant to be.
If the influencer rolls a number of successes equal to the Resolve of her target then she succeeds, if she has more successes than her opponents Resolve then those extra successes can be used to purchase extra effects.
This base Resolve is then adjusted up or down based on the target's relevant Virtue and Intimacy, depending on whether they would support or hinder the influence, adjusting by 3 for Major and 2 for Minor.
If an enemy warlord attempts to convince Amethyst the Dawn Solar to abandon her pursuit of him in order to protect her wife the influence could be in accordance with her Major Tie (Love) for her wife, but against her Minor Virtue of Justice, so we remove 3 from her Resolve for the Major Intimacy supporting the influence but add 2 for her Minor Virtue opposing it, for a net total of -1.
If multiple Virtues or Intimacies are relevant then the one with the highest Intensity, either for or against the Influence, from each category applies.
Furthermore, when purchasing additional influence effects with extra successes, if the effect would oppose a Virtue or Intimacy then you increase the amount of extra successes required for the effect by the Virtue or Intimacy Value, Virtues and Intimacies that support additional influence effects do not offer a corresponding discount.
There are many different social influence actions, but in the interest of saving time the relevant ones for Last and First attempting to make Orthlack do what he wants are Instill, Persuade and Weaken. The number in parenthesis is the cost in extra successes you need to buy the action as an extra effect
Instill (1 success): You create a new feeling or belief for the character tied to a character's Virtue. Instill covers actions to convince a character of a truth, inspire her to belief or great emotion, or create fear. This creates a new Minor Intimacy based on what you made the target believe or feel, and the newly acquired intimacy is tied to one of the target's appropriate Virtues, if you do not know the targets Virtues then they decide which one it's tied to. Only one Intimacy may be instilled per a social influence action. An Intimacy may be applied without tying it to a Virtue, such as inspiring a Tie of fear toward yourself, but unless reinforced by some form of magic such an Intimacy only persists until the end of the play session before fading.
Persuade (2 successes): You convince the target to do something. This usually targets a Virtue or Intimacy, but if the suitable leverage in the form of bargaining, coercion or intimidation is applied then she doesn't need to know her target's Virtues or Intimacies. Persuade covers everything from threats, to sweet talking, to inspiring another to act. On a success the target will do what you say so long as it does not pose more than a minor inconvenience to herself.
To convince the target to do something more dangerous or contrary to what she wants you must spend extra successes to buy the effect of Persuade again on the same action.
Purchasing it again persuades the target to do something that would pose an inconvenience or even danger to herself, but she still will not risk serious injury or her livelihood.
Purchasing it yet again persuades the target to risk almost anything, she will put everything on the line and even allow the task to change her life. She still won't risk certain death, but short of that she is up for the challenge.
Weaken (3 successes): You weaken an existing Intimacy from Major to Minor, or Minor to removed completely. Only one Intimacy may be weakened per a scene, and if you fail this social action then the situation must change in some meaningful way to allow another attempt. This does not work on Virtues.
Mercurial Iris the Nadir Infernal is trying to help a Dynastic heir escape from her corrupt family. During this course of events, she is confronted by the heir's Earth Aspect bodyguard who demands to know the hidden location of his charge, a Persuade action. Persuasion works typically targets a Virtue or Intimacy, but leverage in the form of threats and intimidation can be substituted. Iris has a dot of Integrity and a Major Virtue of Courage, so her Resolve in the face of the Dragonblood's attempted intimidation is 6.
He rolls an impressive 9 successes meaning he succeeds in the basic persuasion action. However, all Iris says is that the heir isn't at her family home anymore, not very helpful but telling him the actual location of the heir would most definitely be more than just a minor inconvenience to Iris. With his 3 extra successes he would normally be able to afford to buy Persuade again and force more information out of her, but Iris's Major Courage Virtue opposes attempts to get her to talk through threats of force, so instead of costing 2 successes an additional Persuade costs 5.
He cannot Instill a Tie of fear toward himself either, Courage opposes this for obvious reasons so it would cost 4 successes instead of 1.
He spends some successes on Reading Intentions instead, and promptly learns that Iris intends to kill him.
Resisting Influence and Unacceptable Influence (i.e. Social Influence Is Not Mind Control)
Even if a persuading character rolls an infinite amount of successes there are simply limits to what the target may be made to feel, believe or do. Without some kind of magic to back it up, no amount of charisma (or dice successes) could make someone believe that the red apple they are seeing is actually blue, or convince a loving husband to just stop loving his spouse out of nowhere. A long-term campaign to gaslight a target into questioning their sense of reality maybe could, but that's outside the scope of a single social confrontation.
Even if a social influence action succeeds the target may choose to resist anyway because they are fundamentally unwilling to go along with the influence. Should they do so, they have two choices: accept a Hard Bargain instead or ignore it outright.
A Hard Bargain is a narrative tool where the player and the Storyteller come to a compromise. Either the player or the Storyteller has determined that the character would reject the influence no matter what, but perhaps they would instead be willing to perform a different related action, or in the course of rejecting the influence they suffer a setback or weaken one of their Intimacies.
If a satisfactory Hard Bargain can't be reached, or the Player/Storyteller feels that the influence is so far out of the character's nature that they would never even entertain it or anything related to it then they may reject it outright. The influence action simply has no effect and instead the influencer gains the extra successes they scored as bonus dice that they may spend on another action they'll take later in the same scene.
Certain kinds of influence never work period, they are Unacceptable, and a character cannot be coerced into following through, no matter how compelling the oration the proposed influence is so antithetical to the nature of its target that the target can reject it outright without granting bonus dice to the influencer or even before any dice are rolled. Though there are some forms of magic that can force certain kinds of unacceptable influence.
The following are examples of Unacceptable Influence.
Persuading a character to perform an action above the threshold of successes spent on Persuasion. For example, asking someone to take on a serious or dangerous task without spending extra successes.
Any influence that would cause a character to kill herself or do something she knows would result in her certain death.
Asking a character to act in a way that would require her to abandon or ignore her Major Virtue.
The Red Rule: a character may only ever be seduced or put into a sexual situation if everyone at the table is okay with it.
A Character may willingly choose to follow an action put forward by Unacceptable Influence, but only because she thinks it makes sense, she can't be coerced into doing it against her will.
Let's rewind the clock on the Earth Aspect bodyguard attempting to coerce Mercurial Iris into giving up the location of the Dynastic heir. Suppose instead of 9 successes he somehow rolled a staggering 20. More than enough to buy Persuade 3 times and therefore convince Iris to do anything short of certain death right?
Iris's player disagrees. It makes no sense for Iris, a character defined by her Courage, to simply fold like a house of cards just because a Dragonblood intimidated her, it would simply never happen. The Storyteller offers a Hard Bargain to give up information on Iris's Circlemates instead, but Iris's player rejects this too. Iris's Major Virtue is Courage, to betray any of her allies because her own life was threatened would require her to abandon her Major Virtue and would thus be Unacceptable by definition. She argues the action should fail outright and not grant any compensatory benefits to the Earth Aspect.
If the Earth Aspect wants to make Iris give up any information then he will have to find some form of leverage beyond simply trying to intimidate her with threats of violence. If he were holding a loved one hostage or convinced Iris through previous interactions that he was on her side then maybe the situation would be different.
---
Now, returning to Last and First's confrontation with Orthlack and what we know.
Orthlack has a base Resolve of 3, a Major Virtue of Ambition, a Minor Virtue of Discipline and a Minor Tie of loyalty toward Marius Hax which could be tied to either Ambition (his loyalty is based upon the status and resources it gives him) or Discipline (he's loyal on the principle of hierarchical power structures and stability).
He also has a temporary Minor Tie of fear toward Last and First, instilled in the last update.
Note that he could easily have more Intimacies (we only know what we could buy with Read Intentions), he almost certainly has an Intimacy relating to the status of his house tied to Ambition for instance. But for the sake of the thought experiment we'll say that this all he has.
Last and First attempting to make Orthlack release all his bondsmen and turn over a new leaf by setting up a system of fair payment and worker protections is a Persuade action, the leverage being applied is intimidation.
A single Persuade will do nothing, as this is definitely more than a minor inconvenience. A double Persuade is a bit fuzzy and may still do nothing, a definite argument could be made that this seriously damages his livelihood and presents a serious risk to his life (there are many in Gunmetal who would either take issue with him doing this or scent weakness). A triple Persuade is necessary to make him change his entire life.
Base resolve is 3 and Orthlack's Major Virtue of Ambition opposes while his Tie of fear supports that's +3 -2, his Resolve is 4.
Last and First is attempting to make Orthlack do what he wants via raw intimidation, that sounds like Force + Presence. He has Force 2 and Presence 3 for a dice pool of 5, he has no applicable Charms. The odds of rolling 4 or more successes are 24.18%, not great odds, but as previously established he must not only succeed but buy two additional Persuades in order to make Orthlack change his ways. Orthlack's Ambition Virtue continues to oppose this, increasing the cost of each additional Persuade to 5 extra success, meaning that Last and First needs a staggering 14 successes to succeed.
Even if he pulls off a miracle and rolls doubles on all his dice he can only get 10 successes. The Persuade action is mathematically impossible.
Even if it weren't though, Maugan would be well within his rights to declare that Orthlack performing a sudden 180 and letting his workers unionize is so out of character that Orthlack would never go along with it as he currently is.
Have a Hard Bargain instead, maybe Orthlack plays along for now, but secretly plots against Last and First.
Or he could have Orthlack reject it outright and give Last and First however many extra successes he scored on the Persuade Roll as bonus dice on his next action as a consolation prize, "combat begins have some extra dice to ventilate Orthlack's skull with" or "Orthlack won't do it but he's going to perform a Social Influence action of his own to try to convince you that he will so you'll go away (Dissuade and/or Persuade, and Instil) hopefully these bonus dice will help you see through the deception" (Bonus dice can be added to static values at a rate of half the bonus dice rounded up).
Would this be a case of an outright Unacceptable Influence? Possibly.
Orthlack's Ambition is to increase the standing of his house, the argument could certainly be made that any action that would ruin the standing of his house would require him to abandon this Virtue. One could also argue that he can't fulfill his Ambition if Last and First kills him, but things start to get a bit fuzzy if we go down that rabbit hole.
Whichever the case, Orthlack is free to Resist regardless.
Base resolve is 3 and Orthlack's Major Virtue of Ambition opposes while his Tie of fear supports that's +3 -2, his Resolve is 4.
Last and First is attempting to make Orthlack do what he wants via raw intimidation, that sounds like Force + Presence. He has Force 2 and Presence 3 for a dice pool of 5, he has no applicable Charms. The odds of rolling 4 or more successes are 24.18%, not great odds, but as previously established he must not only succeed but buy two additional Persuades in order to make Orthlack change his ways. Orthlack's Ambition Virtue continues to oppose this, increasing the cost of each additional Persuade to 5 extra success, meaning that Last and First needs a staggering 14 successes to succeed.
Even if he pulls off a miracle and rolls doubles on all his dice he can only get 10 successes. The Persuade action is mathematically impossible.
I see, thank you for being so informative. So unless Last and First had some hidden feature where he's more intimidating, advocating for something as big as this was a fool's errand so we are better off just shooting him or at least getting him to smuggle us to the Sector Lord.
