Same reason the slave owners never invested much in factories and railroads.
Slavery means you invest all your capital in the ownership of slaves
To build an ideal slave is to render your existing slaves worthless. It would bankrupt the slave owners and their slave based society. For the slave owners, a machine slave is a greater threat than a machine that demands a working wage.
Then there's also the ideological component, where slave owners believe they are superior and have to rule over their inferiors.
This sounds pretty stupid... I'm not exactly an expert but...
Slaves weren't capital expected to grow in value over time, they where used until they died and then they where replaced. A mechanical slave existing would just mean that they would buy mechanical slaves after the flesh and blood ones died?
Slave owners never did much in the way of factories because they required skills and where easy to sabotage by slaves, the fact that a mechanical slave would be programmed to not do that would actually allow slave owners to expand into new markets.
Also why would slave owners not believe themselves superior to their machines?
They didn't have enough "rude mechanical" types who would sully themselves with grease and rivets and whatnot. Remember that the places with cash crop plantation economies were never centers of industry, craftsmanship, or technology; they imported that stuff, they didn't build it very much.
Though what 10ebbor10 said is probably a big part of it too.
If I remember right, a lot of the slaveowners got fucking killed, too.
Like, I'm 90% sure that MULTIPLE machines have referred to it as "the unpleasantness", but...like, they just killed the fucking lot of them. And, you know what? Good riddance. Fuck em.
(this may not be true, but it is what I faintly remember.)
Ah well, I guess a mob of machines conducting reverse lynching's would absolutely put the slave owners in a tight timeframe to develop their own, that they could not succeed.
This sounds pretty stupid... I'm not exactly an expert but...
Slaves weren't capital expected to grow in value over time, they where used until they died and then they where replaced. A mechanical slave existing would just mean that they would buy mechanical slaves after the flesh and blood ones died?
Slave owners never did much in the way of factories because they required skills and where easy to sabotage by slaves, the fact that a mechanical slave would be programmed to not do that would actually allow slave owners to expand into new markets.
Also why would slave owners not believe themselves superior to their machines?
The US banned the import of slaves in 1806, and yet the amount of slaves increased from 1 to 4 million by the time of the civil war. Slaves were allowed to have kids, and those kids can be sold. So, there is no "after the flesh and blood ones died". The system is self sustaining and expanding.
As for factories and railroads, the problem was not slave sabotage. It was that it was more profitable to invest in more slaves than in factories, so slaves sucked up a lot of the investment capital. Free white operated railroads were profitable and useful, but not as profitable as slavery, so slavery was where the money went.
The slave owners would believe themselves too superior to the machines. Black slaves were inferior, but human. Thus the slave owner believed they were doing a noble duty uplifting the black race (same justification as the white man's burden).
Robots aren't human, so you're not doing anything. Might as well teach civilization to a rock.
The US banned the import of slaves in 1806, and yet the amount of slaves increased from 1 to 4 million by the time of the civil war. Slaves were allowed to have kids, and those kids can be sold. So, there is no "after the flesh and blood ones died". The system is self sustaining and expanding.
As for factories and railroads, the problem was not slave sabotage. It was that it was more profitable to invest in more slaves than in factories, so slaves sucked up a lot of the investment capital. Free white operated railroads were profitable and useful, but not as profitable as slavery, so slavery was where the money went.
The slave owners would believe themselves too superior to the machines. Black slaves were inferior, but human. Thus the slave owner believed they were doing a noble duty uplifting the black race (same justification as the white man's burden).
Robots aren't human, so you're not doing anything. Might as well teach civilization to a rock.
Thats fair. Although a mechanical slave doesn't really need to reproduce given the original machines are still kicking around. I mean technically, you can no longer have infinite exponential growth, but honestly there where plenty of reasons that they didn't have that anyway. The system is still self sustaining.
Mind if I ask why slaves where more profitable than investing in factories. They aren't nearly as productive as workers who are on a cotton gin. Is there some kind of additional expense that factory bosses occurred? Some reason that slaves and factories are mutually exclusive?
And quite the contrary you program whatever damn culture you want into machines, they're much easier to uplift. In contrast to difficult humans who have emotional attachements to their homeland they were kidnapped from, and greatly dislike their treatment and your culture.
Lets recognise that the White Man Burden was a post hoc justification to excuse the what they would otherwise be forced to acknowledge. They began with slavery, they did not invent the concept and then start importing slaves to civilise them with the wealth and stuff being a happy accident.
Its not needed when you can open up the machines code and see right there that all they want to do is serve humans.
so was the institution in question, and its overseers.
I have a question about some particular economics, though: how much is cost a factor for machines? Like, I know Dora scrimped and scraped to keep every bloody farthing of her wages for buying her commission at the expense of her recommended maintenance schedule, but are parts and maintenance actually an expense on the level of real-world healthcare for machines? Or is our lens as readers being coloured by Theodora Scrooge's penny-pinching (and her not-insignificant issues with spending money on herself)?
Wondering because I'm in the planning stages of a Concert-based adventure using the RPG 'book', and a player interested in a machine PC asked what the costs of self-upkeep would look like.
I have a question about some particular economics, though: how much is cost a factor for machines? Like, I know Dora scrimped and scraped to keep every bloody farthing of her wages for buying her commission at the expense of her recommended maintenance schedule, but are parts and maintenance actually an expense on the level of real-world healthcare for machines? Or is our lens as readers being coloured by Theodora Scrooge's penny-pinching (and her not-insignificant issues with spending money on herself)?
There's also the issue that she is a Military machine ( far more expensive spare parts) operating on a human wage for a job which is deliberatly designed to pay terribly (because all humans are assumed to have estates).
A human without estates could not keep themselves alive on an officer's salary.
Like, let's take the cost list from the start of the first story here.
"Tailored, self-repairing, climate adjusted uniform, £120. Brass gorget with energy screen generator, £92 4s. Infantry sabre model 2160 with adjustable settings, £75 1s 6d. Space Pattern Infantry Laser Pistol of 2155, with engraved nameplate, £105. A tidy bill for an enlisted machine, Dora."
Thats fair. Although a mechanical slave doesn't really need to reproduce given the original machines are still kicking around. I mean technically, you can no longer have infinite exponential growth, but honestly there where plenty of reasons that they didn't have that anyway. The system is still self sustaining.
Mind if I ask why slaves where more profitable than investing in factories. They aren't nearly as productive as workers who are on a cotton gin. Is there some kind of additional expense that factory bosses occurred? Some reason that slaves and factories are mutually exclusive?
And quite the contrary you program whatever damn culture you want into machines, they're much easier to uplift. In contrast to difficult humans who have emotional attachements to their homeland they were kidnapped from, and greatly dislike their treatment and your culture.
Lets recognise that the White Man Burden was a post hoc justification to excuse the what they would otherwise be forced to acknowledge. They began with slavery, they did not invent the concept and then start importing slaves to civilise them with the wealth and stuff being a happy accident.
Its not needed when you can open up the machines code and see right there that all they want to do is serve humans
Again, the problem is that in the changeover, their entire existing stock of slaves becomes worthless. Slave owners regard robots the same way an oil baron regards cheap, renewable energy. It's an existential threat.
The economics of slavery are complex and depend on location, and there is a lot of stuff going on that can not usefully be discussed (and on which I know too little to make a proper argument). The short of it is that return on slave bonds was pretty, that slavery was heavily financialized allowing it to suck up investment capital, that the constant increase of slave prices formed a sort of asset bubble, and so on. Capitalism isn't perfect and doesn't always do the best thing. The slave system was toxic even for the ones in control.
As for the final argument, the point is not to have an effective uplift program. The point is to enshrine yourself in a mythology where you are superior, where you are grand for merely existing. The system of uplifting doesn't need to work (it's better if it doesn't), it just needs to exist the existence of the system and how the white people are on top.
And sure, the white man's burden is a strong case of motivated reasoning, but being made up has never kept ideologies from catching root anyway.
The slavery system endures not just because it's the more economical thing to do, but because the people perpetrating it are true believers that their inferiors need to be enslaved. And they're not just going to give that up for a robot
And yeah, Fusie's costs for maintenance and upgrades are kind of ridiculous. The vast majority of machines either have it pretty cheap (household machines are made of relatively cheap materials like aluminium and tempered glass) or are covered by their jobs (like Fusiliers, but also a lot of the more heavy industry type machines like miners, lumber workers, etc). Fusiliers are by far an outlier cost-wise, like the difference between maintaining a compact car and an M1 Abrams battle tank.
Again, the problem is that in the changeover, their entire existing stock of slaves becomes worthless. Slave owners regard robots the same way an oil baron regards cheap, renewable energy. It's an existential threat.
The economics of slavery are complex and depend on location, and there is a lot of stuff going on that can not usefully be discussed (and on which I know too little to make a proper argument). The short of it is that return on slave bonds was pretty, that slavery was heavily financialized allowing it to suck up investment capital, that the constant increase of slave prices formed a sort of asset bubble, and so on. Capitalism isn't perfect and doesn't always do the best thing. The slave system was toxic even for the ones in control.
As for the final argument, the point is not to have an effective uplift program. The point is to enshrine yourself in a mythology where you are superior, where you are grand for merely existing. The system of uplifting doesn't need to work (it's better if it doesn't), it just needs to exist the existence of the system and how the white people are on top.
And sure, the white man's burden is a strong case of motivated reasoning, but being made up has never kept ideologies from catching root anyway.
The slavery system endures not just because it's the more economical thing to do, but because the people perpetrating it are true believers that their inferiors need to be enslaved. And they're not just going to give that up for a robot
They don't become worthless, because they can still work. Seriously, was the majority of value of a slave in their prospective value to be sold later and the labour they did is incidental? We could have banned slave labour and they would have kept owning slaves? I assume that it must be, because otherwise you're creating a terrible comparison with the energy comparison comparing products to products rather than labour sources to labour sources.
Slave bonds? Googling that goes to this: Slave Compensation Act 1837 - Wikipedia now if you're about to tell me that slave owners kept slaves in part as a speculative investment that they would be compensated for in case of abolition then I'll be stunned at how ridiculous the bad incentives in this system got...
The mythology is literally programmed into the minds of the machines, they could regard humans as their creator gods. It wouldn't even be wrong, and its hard to get more superior for merely existing than that.
They don't become worthless, because they can still work. Seriously, was the majority of value of a slave in their prospective value to be sold later and the labour they did is incidental? We could have banned slave labour and they would have kept owning slaves? I assume that it must be, because otherwise you're creating a terrible comparison with the energy comparison comparing products to products rather than labour sources to labour sources.
Slave bonds? Googling that goes to this: Slave Compensation Act 1837 - Wikipedia now if you're about to tell me that slave owners kept slaves in part as a speculative investment that they would be compensated for in case of abolition then I'll be stunned at how ridiculous the bad incentives in this system got...
The slave would become worthless, because they are outcompeted by robots, they will cost more to house and feed than they produce, rendering their use an economic loss and their value.
In any case, I was referring to real bonds.. Just like how you can mortgage a house, the South had a rich trade of mortgaging slaves. A huge amount of finance and banks were involved with loans backed by slaves. It was one the US's first big financial markets.
The mythology is literally programmed into the minds of the machines, they could regard humans as their creator gods. It wouldn't even be wrong, and its hard to get more superior for merely existing than that.
The problem is not the machines, it's the people. The mythology is for the benefit of the slave owners, not the enslaved. They don't care what the slaves thing.
You can make the robot think you are God, it doesn't matter if you know it's not real.
The slave would become worthless, because they are outcompeted by robots, they will cost more to house and feed than they produce, rendering their use an economic loss and their value.
In any case, I was referring to real bonds.. Just like how you can mortgage a house, the South had a rich trade of mortgaging slaves. A huge amount of finance and banks were involved with loans backed by slaves. It was one the US's first big financial markets.
Bonnie Martin, Slavery's Invisible Engine: Mortgaging Human Property, The Journal of Southern History, Vol. 76, No. 4 (NOVEMBER 2010), pp. 817-866
www.jstor.org
By the time of the US civil war, roughly half the wealth in the Southern US was tied up in slave ownership. I
The problem is not the machines, it's the people. The mythology is for the benefit of the slave owners, not the enslaved. They don't care what the slaves thing.
You can make the robot think you are God, it doesn't matter if you know it's not real.
Its not flipping a switch though, they aren't outcompeted overnight, simply because they wouldn't be able to make enough machines to replace them overnight. the slaves still have value as they're phased out. And they're also outcompeted by machines working for a wage... So they're a worthless long term asset anyway.
I'll have to read up on this, thanks.
Why is knowing that these robots where created and exist for the sole purpose of making your life easier, insufficient?
Unsurprisingly, I was not the only one to have received an unexpected addition in my morning papers. The mess, as empty as it was, was abuzz with it at breakfast, with Miles and Turner both dropping by with copies in their hands.
"You get it too, Fusie?" Miles asked, and I was force to nod.
"Bit disconcerting, isn't it?" Turner added. "Kara's been reading the papers to practise her English and she's the one who found it, it's got her right turned around."
"She's got nothing to worry about," Miles assured him. "It's rubbish, it's not how machines think. Right, Dora?"
"Not any sane machine, at least," I confirmed. "Don't take that thing seriously, lads, it's just somebody glitching out. They're probably already getting looked over…"
"You thought a machine wrote that?" Miles asked, holding the sheet up to the light as if it would reveal something about it. "It was obviously written by a human."
"What?" I asked, and he nodded.
"Of course, none of you lot would ever say anything like that, glitched or no," he explained. "That's a human who's got it in their head that they're doing something wrong, mark my words."
"A bit upsetting either way. You think the whole city got one?" Turner asked.
"I mean, every human getting papers here. Can't be many in the holidays," Miles said, settling back. "Just hope-"
"Can I sit with you?"
There, standing by the table looking quite awkward, was Lieutenant Théa, in her new red uniform, looking utterly overwhelmed.
"She lives!" Miles declared, pushing a seat out with his foot. "I'm glad we hadn't scared you off entirely. Sit!"
With slow, deliberate movements, as if she were carefully recreating the motions from a manual, she pulled the chair the rest of the way out and sat.
"What brings you back?" I asked. She shuffled uncomfortably, but spoke.
"It… has taken me some time to settle in," she admitted. "I figured that breakfast would be less crowded, and as more officers have left for the holiday it would be more comfortable."
"Well, you picked exactly the wrong day for it," Turner said, flipping a pamphlet around and sliding it to her. "Might as well show you and get the damage out of the way."
She snatched it and began reading, and we sat in total silence watching her cameras track back and forth over the sheet for the better part of a minute.
"This is quite insane," she finally concluded, setting it down. "I had no idea the conditions of machines were so dire in Britain."
"It isn't!" I protested. "Besides, a human wrote it, right Miles?"
"That was my thought," he agreed. "Don't worry about it, worry about the party. Which you will be attending, right?"
"Party?" she asked, an eyebrow raising. "Oh, I don't think I am nearly-"
"It's mandatory," I lied. It'd be good for her.
"Even for us?" she asked.
"It's machindatory, yes." I felt a little guilty stealing a joke from Lieutenant Kennedy, but in my defence it was a very funny joke. Théa sank back in the chair a little, looking a little defeated.
"What am I supposed to do now?"
"Oh, come on, it'll be alright," I assured her. "Look, I'll be right there with you, I promise its not as bad as it seems."
"It seems pretty bad," she conceded.
"We'll get through it. Lieutenant Fusiliers stick together."
Turner looked briefly disconcerted.
"Lieutenant Fusiliers? Lieutenants Fusilier?" he paused. "One of you needs to get a promotion, just to keep the confusion down."
"Working on it," I assured him.
---
Despite my fears, we were spared any further pamphlets the next day, and talk of it died off quickly. The rest of the week past without incident. Unfortunately, this included no news of our missing soldiers, nor from Sergeant Theda, who reported her failure stony-faced each time. The officers continued to dwindle, until we all started meeting in one office in the morning for lack of anything better to do.
On Thursday, we agreed that she was too distinctive and had been there too long, and we'd recruit some other machines to the scheme after the weekend. Our numbers too reduced for anything intensive, we racked our brains for novel busywork to give the Theos and Doras, and for lack of anything else we got a few of the oldest veterans to demonstrate on the base's stockpile of ancient coil rifles. Technically, regulations dictated that machines should be made familiar with their operation in the event that we encountered a foe resistant to optical weapons, but after a half-century without incident it just seemed sort of absurd.
Curious, I gave it a test fire myself. It lacked the visceral satisfaction of an optical weapon, or even the raw power of Sergeant Theda's modern needle rifle. There was just a humming of capacitors and a hole appeared in the target downrange.
The next morning, Friday the 23rd, I arrived early in the newly consolidated officer's meeting room to see Sergeant Theda standing at the door, looking immensely pleased with herself. The only other officer there was Lieutenant Théa, sitting by herself looking quite lost for something to do.
"Something to report, Sergeant?" I asked.
"I wish to report that our operation was a success," she declared smugly. "Last night, two ruffians approached me with a proposal."
"Stealing medical supplies?" I inquired.
"No, but stealing none-the-less. They wanted a set of Fusilier parts, replacement pins and the like, to flip onto the market. Apparently, they are favoured by the servants of adventurous humans, flitting about the frontier and such."
"What did you do?"
"I procured a handful, of course, and used it to get into their good graces," she explained.
"You stole Army property?" I asked, though not seriously. It was good initiative on her part.
"I procured, ma'am. It worked famously. I posted another soldier in my place and went to the listed address, they paid me, and then I extracted the name and details of their employer."
"Extracted..?"
"I'm not at liberty to speak of my methods," she said wryly. "Nobody was hurt permanently."
I… didn't care to know.
"So, who are we looking for? A human?"
"Is this about those pamphlets?"
I think we both realised then that Lieutenant Théa was right there, listening to us. I was preparing my response when Theda, without hesitation, began to speak.
"No, Lieutenant, a different matter. Stolen equipment from our stores. I'm pleased to say led a sting operation which successfully led us to the culprits and their ringleader, ma'am," she reported sharply. I even noticed her snap to attention far more smartly than she ever did for me, and I felt a strange pang of jealousy at that.
"I see…" Théa said, sighing. "Nothing seems to be going right in this city. How can I help?"
"Uh, well, I think we have it well in hand…" I began, turning back to the Sergeant. Seeing it as an opportunity to speak, she continued.
"Well, I've been told that these machines report to a major figure in the city's black market, you see. He sounds like an important figure, for an Adam Wright…"
"Wait, sorry, hang on," I interjected. "An Adam?"
"Yes, ma'am, just some factory machine. Apparently he is very influential, though… there is something more going on, isn't there."
"The…" I turned to Théa, frustrated to still see her there but unsure how to get rid of her politely. "The missing machines. Miles and I tracked a smuggler down who worked for an Adam, had some unkind things to say about him. Sounds like he's involved in something foul, foul enough the smuggler didn't want anything to do with it."
"Stars," Théa muttered. "How can I help?"
"I-"
"Well, ma'am, I managed to get a date where it might be possible to meet this Adam Wright. On Christmas Day, he is hosting a party at the Elizabeth Ballroom."
"How, exactly, is he running a party at the city's biggest ballroom?" I asked. Even I'd heard of the Elizabeth, from decades of overhearing officers talk about it, and from once or twice having to go retrieve a drunken officer from it. Beautiful building, though I'd never been inside.
"He runs the place, ma'am."
"He is, um, petite bourgeoisie?" Théa asked. Seeing the confusion in her eyes, she continued. "Works for himself, to render a server to society, instead of for a human?"
"oh, no, of course not. The hall is owned by Lord Arcturus. It's just closed for Christmas, so he's repurposing the place. He does it every year, apparently," Sergeant Theda explained.
"He's employed by Lord Arcturus?" I couldn't believe it, but Theda nodded. She looked equally bemused.
"It sounds as though, yes," she confirmed. "I managed to secure an invitation for myself and some friends, the doorman will let us through."
"Well… I think we might have to meet this machine, won't we?" Théa asked, looking at me quizzically. No way out of it now.
"I suppose we must."
---
Sorry for a bit of short one, I just had to get something posted. Working on more as best I can.
Technically, regulations dictated that machines should be made familiar with their operation in the event that we encountered a foe resistant to optical weapons, but after a half-century without incident it just seemed sort of absurd.
Huh, so an Adam is behind the missing machines and the stolen army supplies.
My first thought is that he's building a private army, but he probably hasn't stolen enough equipment to supply the kidnapped machines for very long.
I can't believe Fusie is the now the most social of the two machine lieutenants.
I like that 'machindatory' pun. Glad it came back.
Also, kinda funny that Thea was absolutely ready to believe that the pamphlet was accurate about how awful things were in Britain.
Huh. With the pamphlet appearing in this rewrite, I wonder if it's also somehow related to this 'Adam' person. Could he be some kind of machine liberationist?
Okay, a very, very old Adam running an illegal dance. This ought to be interesting. Not sure he'd also be involved in the pamphleting; that seems a pretty low-key bit of work for someone already at the "private army" stage of things; though perhaps he could be trying to use the pamphlets to astroturf something.
...or it might still be a well meaning nerd again, and her pamphlets are going to get used by this criminal Adam to astroturf something. Any machine willing to go as far out the lines as he already is, is going to be mentally flexible enough to twist well meaning people's words against them.
I really have to wonder what the motive is, since machines are mostly inclined to be law-abiding. Like, the boxies only stole supplies because they didn't know better and someone convinced them that stealing is kind of like a job, when you think about it. But an Adam who's been around for ages would know perfectly well what they're doing. How do you convince enough machines to break the rules to set up a whole black market?
Maybe it's like Clippy from Freefall? "My boss told me that he's more important than any other human, my boss is a human and therefore always right, therefore I'm going to build a private army of Fusiliers to help him take over the world."
I wonder if it's the work of the parallel universe infiltrators from the scrapped draft, or if we'll see that plotline again. Though you might expect such to not draw attention to themselves by comitting crimes.
"My boss told me that he's more important than any other human, my boss is a human and therefore always right, therefore I'm going to build a private army of Fusiliers to help him take over the world."
The machines don't think people are infallible, tho. And they have a strong cultural tradition of challenging and overcoming harmful human behaviours (see the industrious revolution).
No, I think these are machines that have been programmed differently, maybe originating in a different polity (sent as infiltrators by holdout elitists?).
There is also the possibility that this Adam is one of the infinitesimal few who take the "non serviam" option when they're first unboxed. That alone could indicate a radically different machine from any we've seen thus far.
