Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Playing: Final Fantasy IX]

You know, it's really messed up that the Good Boy SeeD decision when you're being tortured in the Galbadian Prison isn't Squall being a Hard Man and clamming up tighter than Elon Musk's butthole, but Squall actively trying to die. After all, the ideal mercenary is strong, obedient, and eminently disposable once he's more useful alive than dead.
 
You know, it's really messed up that the Good Boy SeeD decision when you're being tortured in the Galbadian Prison isn't Squall being a Hard Man and clamming up tighter than Elon Musk's butthole, but Squall actively trying to die. After all, the ideal mercenary is strong, obedient, and eminently disposable once he's more useful alive than dead.

TBF, NORG does wire Squall some money into prison even after he fails to die like he should've, so at least he has that going for him.
 
I mean, I did think about TES when I wrote my post (Morrowing and Oblivion more than Skyrim, though), and, well, it does have some serious issues with the system implementation—
Implementation being the key word there, I think. Because, no matter what your TES opinions are, you have to admit that their implementation drastically changes the end result. Skyrim and FF2 are not equally bad, because their systems were implemented differently.

"Issues with system implementation" do not automatically mean the system is bad.

I do think TES would've worked better with a more straightforward "rise skills on level-up" system.
Why? So that player actions have less consequence in their builds? So that player progression is more standardized? So players are encouraged to hoard all their alchemical reagents until they can max out their alchemy skill, to get the most bang out of their buck?

You can't just say "I think this would be better if it didn't have X, so X is bad". You have to, at the very least, explain why you think X makes it worse—and what "worse" even means. It's possible for multiple different progression systems to work in different games, due to some combination of the games' other different design decisions and their different goals.

Diablo's murder-powered-gachapon-machine progression would fit most Final Fantasy games poorly, but it's suited to the game Diablo actually is. I don't like that game, but that doesn't mean Diablo's progression systems are bad. They're just a means to an end I don't care about.

In large part because of the social contract within the group: you're playing with real people who've all gathered to have fun and tell a collaborative story, so a lot of rough edges and potentially problematic design could be smoothed over with "OK, we're here to investigate the murder of Comte de Saint-Germain, so that's what we're doing now, not training".
Fucking railroader.


I don't think I would ever use Runescape as example of a design decision working.
RuneScape has been running since 2001. Over 300 million people had opened accounts by 2012, and it's still going. Even in the 2020s, it was continuing to generate over 100 million euros in revenue per year.
Plenty of critics have praised it for various features, with its progression systems being among them, a fact which I learned from digging deep into the Reception section of its Wikipedia page.

I understand why not everyone would like RuneScape or its progression systems; said Wikipedia page quotes critical reviews, too. But what it's doing clearly works for what it's trying to do, and there's an audience for that. The fact that you personally don't like RuneScape says nothing about the viability of its game design.

(Ninja'd but. Whatever.)
 
I mean, I did think about TES when I wrote my post (Morrowing and Oblivion more than Skyrim, though), and, well, it does have some serious issues with the system implementation, not least of which is tying stat progression to skill progression in such a way that leveling your skills non-optimally means you're going to be weaker than you could be forever.

I can't speak to Morrowind and Oblivion, but Skyrim skills and perks are order agnostic: the same build, regardless of how you get there, will have the same strength, and in Skyrim it is wholly possible for one character to get everything; there is no permanent weakening of a build because you happened to start as an Altmer pickpocket.
 
I can't speak to Morrowind and Oblivion, but Skyrim skills and perks are order agnostic: the same build, regardless of how you get there, will have the same strength, and in Skyrim it is wholly possible for one character to get everything; there is no permanent weakening of a build because you happened to start as an Altmer pickpocket.

Oblivion is, to put it bluntly, not like that. It marries level scaling to 'well you thought you were going to get stronger when you level up? fuck you for not designing your own class with skills you never use so that you can control when you level up and actually get +5s to the relevant stats on level up so that you can keep pace. this requires you to get at least 10 skill points in the right skills before every level up. also all of the default classes cannot achieve this naturally, because you level up every 10 skill points in class skills, and all of the classes have the skills you'd use if you wanted to be that class as class skills.'

It is a terribly designed levelling system. Though you can just destroy the game at level... 4 IIRC you need for the main story quests, via judicious abuse of creating your own magic spells.
 

So that you could play without regard of how your actions in the moment affect your progression.

FFII is an extreme example of bad implementation, but the issue of incentives to use the skills you want to advance even when the situation doesn't naturally call for it (such as crafting stuff you aren't planning on using or crawling in stealth everywhere or healing when not injured naturally and so on) is rather fundamental to the design in the absence of social constrains against such a behavior.

Is it possible to disregard such incentives and only use skills when the situation actually calls for it? Yeah, sure. It can potentially create an amusing failstate where some of your skills are underleveled because you're too good at the game (such as never advancing the armor skill because you're good at evasion/stealth sniping/whatever), so they would fail you when it matters most (which is a particular problem with level scaling, though as I understand it, Skyrim cut down on it significantly), but that's something of an edge case. However, to me, at least, the existence of those incentives creates a persistent feeling that I could be playing better, more optimally, that I'm missing out by not engaging with the system to the fullest, so I strongly dislike systems like that.


Well, if social contract's not to your liking, there is also the fact that it's a lot easier to just write the rule to the effect of "the roll must actually be narratively meaningful for you to learn anything, you have to try and accomplish something within the game world for the numbers to go up". Video games are a lot more limited when it comes to stuff like that.
 
Skyrim has one of the better level-by-doing systems around (I have many other issues with it, but this isn't a major one), but it still runs into the fundamental problem of what I'm going to call "giving me a day job."

That is, if I want to forge my own cool magical sword, then I'm going to be dedicating a few hours to going out, mining iron, smelting it, forging it into weapons or tools that I can then sell for money, which I will use to buy the soul gems which I will use to enchant the jewelry I've made, and doing so in an endless cycle, unlocking new forging and enchanting abilities but still always needing to be at my forge and at my enchanting table, creating items for sale and then reinvesting them in crafting reagents, until I have reached the level required to make the enchanted sword I want.

Now, doing so is extremely powerful. It will grant me vast wealth and power. There is a popular, humorous webcoming strip about "while you were smithing, the draugr were training" but that's not how Skyrim works; having a career as a miner-blacksmith-jeweler will let you obliterate the shit out of those draugr.

...but it's still a day job doing boring, repetitive shit, instead of just spending an amount of fungible XP into Crafting without having to worry about interacting with the system more than I want to.

It also means I can't invest in Sneak without actually using it, so as to have Sneak as a backup when my usual storm-the-gate approach isn't working; if I want Sneak I need to be always sneaky all the time even when I don't find it fun, because if I use the headstrong approach, then that one time I run into a situation I would rather handle with stealth, I can't, because I was given no option to level stealth at any point.

It's the least of Skyrim's sins, but it's still annoying, and that's one of the best incarnation of level-by-doing progression!
 
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I find it interesting that FFII and the disappointing turns of its leveling system have come back to the conversation at the time when the main game being played is FFVIII, which has its own issues with leveling, if in completely opposite directions from those FFII had.

Of course, if we're having the conversation about leveling system where specific actions help you level specific abilities, and how to do it well versus how FFII did it poorly, in a thread about the Final Fantasy series, Final Fantasy Tactics would be the game to speak about, but doing that would require a lot of spoilers at the moment.
 
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So that you could play without regard of how your actions in the moment affect your progression.
Point 1: As Kadmus pointed out, Skyrim lets you do that

Point 2: Does it actually ensure that? Plenty of RPGs with basic level-based progression have ways to screw over your long-term progression. For some examples (of a slightly more specific issue), check TV Tropes's Permanently Missable Content and Unintentionally Unwinnable pages. (Or Unwinnable By Design, if the designers are feeling mean.) It's just a matter of changing what can mess with your long-term progression.

Point 3: Is the ability to play without regard to how your momentary actions affect your progression desirable? Or does it make your momentary actions meaningless? Is it a problem that (to quote hbomberguy) everyone's JC Denton ended up different? Is it good that everyone's Adam Jensen ended up the same?

Think about Star Wars games, or Mass Effect, or the other games with a crude alignment system. (The good ones, anyway.) Is it bad that doing too many Dark Side actions will cripple your Light Side power progression? Or is that an essential component of what makes those power sets Dark Side and Light Side instead of just Red versus Blue?

Different games require different systems, because different games are different.

However, to me, at least, the existence of those incentives creates a persistent feeling that I could be playing better, more optimally, that I'm missing out by not engaging with the system to the fullest, so I strongly dislike systems like that.
Is there any game where this isn't a problem?

Final Fantasy 1 has the most dead-simple RPG progression system possible, with spells for spice. The only way to affect it is to savescum if you don't get as many stats as you wanted when you level up. And yet, people still worry about optimizing their parties, just in different ways. (Or sometimes by savescumming suboptimal level-ups.)

When researching explanations of why thieves are bad, I came across people saying they kept resetting the first part of the game and adjusting their party comp. Or think of how Omicron reset to avoid winning battles with part of the party dead, to make sure none of them lost EXP. Or people worry about whether they taught their mages the right spells.

Or, you know. Level grinding.

A game can either have ways that you could play more optimally that you miss out on, or your actions can have no impact whatsoever on the game. Games have to balance the tension between these two undesirable outcomes, but you can't improve one without worsening the other. (And it's hard to worsen one without improving the other, though you might ruin other parts of the game in the process.) There are many ways to balance this tension, and none of them are innately bad.

Well, if social contract's not to your liking—
You misunderstand my point. (Well, calling it a "point" is a bit generous. You misunderstand my joke.) There is not one singular Social Contract that governs tabletop roleplaying; there are several, variable. Unless you define all the unwritten rules around the TRPG as a single contract, but then there are multiple rules with multiple potential settings, so that's the same result.

My point is that both "players shouldn't disrupt the game" and "DMs shouldn't railroad the players" are important aspects of the typical TRPG social contract. Those rules often come into tension; different tables resolve that tension in different ways, and ways that work for one table might not work at another. Heck, even when the same players are playing the same system at the same table, they might change how they resolve that tension.

For instance: The players need to destroy a lich living in a cave. They could delve into his lair and face countless undead foes head-on, or they could use magic to redirect a nearby river into the cave and get a bunch of priests to bless the water as it flows in. Are these players stomping all over the DM's carefully-laid plans and destroying the game, or are they finding creative solutions to the problem the DM gave them? It depends on the context. It depends on the tone of the game, it depends on whether the lich is an important antagonist, it depends on what the players (DM included) want out of the game.
Different tables use different social contracts, because different tables are different.

This kinda plays into my main point, but mostly it's an unrelated way that different games are different, which is why I decided to collapse it into a two-word joke the first time.


Skyrim has one of the better level-by-doing systems around (I have many other issues with it, but this isn't a major one), but it still runs into the fundamental problem of what I'm going to call "giving me a day job."

[proceeds to describe level grinding]
If the way I abridged your post didn't make it clear, I don't think this is a problem unique to Skyrim or level-by-doing progression systems. Here, let me show you.

If I want to beat that nasty dragon boss, I'm going to be dedicating a few hours to going out, wandering in the wilderness, fighting random encounters, gaining XP and money, which I will use to restock on consumables and rest and inns, and doing so in an endless cycle, increasing my damage and HP but still always needing to be in the wilderness and the inn, selling vendor trash and then reinvesting them in equipment, until I have reached the level required to beat the boss I hate.​

The difference between a basic RPG level system and a level-by-doing system is basically just that the former has you doing one thing whenever you need to grind for anything (rare drops, gold, XP, etc), while the latter has you doing different activities to grind for different things. (Which actually RELATE to the things you're grinding; why would stabbing goblins make you better at brewing potions?)
This is bad if you only like that one activity, but good if you like variety. (Or if you like all the activities.) Different games are different, and so are different gamers. No category of mechanics is inherently better or worse; it's all about what you're using them for. (And the details.)

Incidentally, that's also why stuff like chocobo racing exists. From one perspective, it's another grind you have to go through to see everything the game has to offer; from another, it's something you can do when you're tired of level grinding, which still rewards you with something useful in the main game.
 
...but it's still a day job doing boring, repetitive shit, instead of just spending an amount of fungible XP into Crafting without having to worry about interacting with the system more than I want to.

It also means I can't invest in Sneak without actually using it, so as to have Sneak as a backup when my usual storm-the-gate approach isn't working; if I want Sneak I need to be always sneaky all the time even when I don't find it fun, because if I use the headstrong approach, then that one time I run into a situation I would rather handle with stealth, I can't, because I was given no option to level stealth at any point.

It's the least of Skyrim's sins, but it's still annoying, and that's one of the best incarnation of level-by-doing progression!
I mean, why would you invest points into Stealth if you're not planning on using it regularly? You'd have the same occur under a standard level up system too.

And with regards to crafting... that just reads to me as you saying you don't like the crafting system? Which is understandable - lots of game crafting systems are bad - but I don't really think that demanding that people interact with crafting in order to use crafting is a bad design decision. Making it so that the only way to level everything is killing things is also not necessarily ideal.

If we look at a game with a better crafting system though (FF14), then lots of people still complain about having to level it too. Getting rid of the need to level it though would remove a lot of valuable gameplay variety.
 
I mean, why would you invest points into Stealth if you're not planning on using it regularly? You'd have the same occur under a standard level up system too.
Let's compare how that works out in practice. I want to use a skill as a tool. I don't use it often, since it's impractical most of the time or I don't like to rely on it for every situation, but when I do use it (and have a high skill level) it solves the problem I face immediately so investing in it is still useful even if I only use it a handful of times in a playthrough.

Standard levelling: I put points into it. It is now available to use whenever I need it.

Skyrim levelling: I need to go out of my way to grind it, changing my playstyle to accomodate the need to use this skill as much as possible. This is a somewhat miserable experience because I prefer to use this skill as a once-in-a-blue-moon utility thing rather than a primary method of solving problems.

With standard levelling, you don't need to change your playstyle to have rarely-used but still useful tools available to you when you want to use them. In Cyberpunk 2077 for example, I main katanas and throwing knives but when I need to take out enemies at a long distance I pull out a sniper rifle. I rarely use this rifle, but it is exceptionally useful in the rare edge-cases that I need it. Using this rifle as a primary weapon is nowhere near as fun as my katana and knife. If I had to actually use this rifle to grind out the skill points rather than just buying all the sniper rifle perks off a tree, I would not bother with it at all.

This is why I rarely use magic in Elder Scrolls games.
 
Think about Star Wars games, or Mass Effect, or the other games with a crude alignment system. (The good ones, anyway.) Is it bad that doing too many Dark Side actions will cripple your Light Side power progression? Or is that an essential component of what makes those power sets Dark Side and Light Side instead of just Red versus Blue?

I do actually think that Paragon/Renegade mechanic is reductive precisely because it encourages you to pick one and stick to it regardless of circumstances.

It fits better in Star Wars because it's in-setting lore, I guess, but Star Wars games do run into an issue that the dark side has all of the cool power but is also batshit, so, say, in KotOR yo shouldn't bother playing the magic-heavy class if you're planning on being light side, and you don't want to be dark side because it's just pointless evil that usually isn't even particularly interesting.

In conclusion, abandon alignments, they're an obsolete tech.

Is there any game where this isn't a problem?

If you take a really broad view of game mechanics, then probably no, but there are definitely games where the gap between relaxed and optimal play is smaller than in others, and I think level-by-doing design encourage the widening of that gap.

(Which actually RELATE to the things you're grinding; why would stabbing goblins make you better at brewing potions?)

Because you want to brew powerful potions that give you permanent stat bonuses but don't care about lesser potions imitating buffs your cleric can cast anyway, so you advance Alchemy to Grandmaster, brew enough black potions to make your party demigods, then never touch any ingredient ever again.

Though I think Omicron's point about stealth is stronger: level-by-doing systems have trouble with fallback options you usually don't use but want to have available in case you need them.
 
I mean, why would you invest points into Stealth if you're not planning on using it regularly? You'd have the same occur under a standard level up system too.
Because I want a fallback option in some circumstances, and I'm willing to pay an opportunity cost on other abilities to have that option.

Let's take Cyberpunk 2077 as an example: A lot of the time in CP77, I'm not interested in stealth. I am a katana-wielding time-stopping god of death, and I will make my enemies know it. However, sometimes, the game gives me a mission where stealth is preferred (there are rarely serious penalties for failing it, but I don't like having friendly NPCs complain that I'm being too loud), or where my enemies aren't evil enough that I feel like mass murder is the solution when a pacifist run is possible. For these situations, I have my stealth investment (camo augs, stealth perks) to facilitate stealth and do a full run through a level without being noticed. These aren't necessarily useful all the time, but I'm willing to take the hit in general competency to have a chance to vary my playthrough.

And with regards to crafting... that just reads to me as you saying you don't like the crafting system? Which is understandable - lots of game crafting systems are bad - but I don't really think that demanding that people interact with crafting in order to use crafting is a bad design decision. Making it so that the only way to level everything is killing things is also not necessarily ideal.

If we look at a game with a better crafting system though (FF14), then lots of people still complain about having to level it too. Getting rid of the need to level it though would remove a lot of valuable gameplay variety.

Skyrim's crafting system is very good at simulating an end-to-end job from mining the ore to selling the finished dagger yourself, and I do enjoy it. For the first five levels.

At some point it just gets tedious, and that point is really early. Unfortunately, there is vanishingly little way of not doing so if you want the rewards of high skills in the system.
 
The funny thing is that when Pokémon Scarlet and Violet came out, suddenly everyone really wanted level-scaling. Granted, mostly just for the Gyms, plus Pokémon's progression system is otherwise quite different from FF8's or Oblivion's
 
Because I want a fallback option in some circumstances, and I'm willing to pay an opportunity cost on other abilities to have that option.

Let's take Cyberpunk 2077 as an example: A lot of the time in CP77, I'm not interested in stealth. I am a katana-wielding time-stopping god of death, and I will make my enemies know it. However, sometimes, the game gives me a mission where stealth is preferred (there are rarely serious penalties for failing it, but I don't like having friendly NPCs complain that I'm being too loud), or where my enemies aren't evil enough that I feel like mass murder is the solution when a pacifist run is possible. For these situations, I have my stealth investment (camo augs, stealth perks) to facilitate stealth and do a full run through a level without being noticed. These aren't necessarily useful all the time, but I'm willing to take the hit in general competency to have a chance to vary my playthrough.
Mmm, this is difficult to say anything about in general imo because it depends so much on game specifics. Like, sometimes you can, as you say, get useful utility out of a small amount of investment in something. Other times, if you're not willing to go all the way down a skill tree you might as well not bother.

Many games have both of these going on - Diablo 2 for instance had many skills like static field or teleport that provided great utility with only 1 or 2 skill points in them, while other skills were very much "invest 20 points or ignore". And that's something that can potentially be done under either system.

The funny thing is that when Pokémon Scarlet and Violet came out, suddenly everyone really wanted level-scaling. Granted, mostly just for the Gyms, plus Pokémon's progression system is otherwise quite different from FF8's or Oblivion's
Tbf, I actually don't want level scaling per se - I want badge scaling, which is different. I wasn't overly fond of the level scaling in the DLC, since it felt kind of silly. This kid going from basic baby trainer to champion level over the course of like two days was dumb.
 
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At some point it just gets tedious, and that point is really early. Unfortunately, there is vanishingly little way of not doing so if you want the rewards of high skills in the system.



The Runescape solution works in Skyrim, too: Buy your crafting materials and just do the actual crafting activity if you want to power-level, instead of end-to-end production.

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This is why I rarely use magic in Elder Scrolls games.

You're missing out, I think. My destruction mage was the most fun I ever had in Skyrim. No enchanting, no smithing, no armour, no weapons, no conjuration. People poop on how destruction works in Skyrim but it is incredibly potent even (hell, especially!) without cheese.
 
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The funny thing is that when Pokémon Scarlet and Violet came out, suddenly everyone really wanted level-scaling. Granted, mostly just for the Gyms, plus Pokémon's progression system is otherwise quite different from FF8's or Oblivion's
The thing with Pokemon is more... people have wanted a fairly open Pokemon game for a while, and we finally got it... but then the gyms don't scale with that open exploration, from my understanding. Feels like it can't be that hard to just have every gym leader have a variable that's "use this team if player has this many badges" check, so you can have fun fighting them in any order. Or hell, if you really want to restrict it can always have ones like how Norman in RSE goes "no get outta here brat I'll fight you only when you have 4 badges" to gate some stronger gym leaders.
You're missing out, I think. My destruction mage was the most fun I ever had in Skyrim. No enchanting, no smithing, no armour, no weapons, no conjuration. People poop on how destruction works in Skyrim but it is incredibly potent even (hell, especially!) without cheese.
Can confirm that even vanilla Skyrim magic turned out to be more fun than I expected when your constant shilling of it finally got me to play a mage-specced run a few years back. Not Destruction Only, but mainly Destruction and once you get over the initial humps of enemy scaling it's pretty fun to just smack people around with waves of fire, ice and electricity.
 
The thing with Pokemon is more... people have wanted a fairly open Pokemon game for a while, and we finally got it... but then the gyms don't scale with that open exploration, from my understanding. Feels like it can't be that hard to just have every gym leader have a variable that's "use this team if player has this many badges" check, so you can have fun fighting them in any order. Or hell, if you really want to restrict it can always have ones like how Norman in RSE goes "no get outta here brat I'll fight you only when you have 4 badges" to gate some stronger gym leaders.
It's really not hard. You just start at the end and build an endgame team, then work backwards from there and scale it down nine times. Could probably just write a simple algorithm to do it, even.
 
Final Fantasy III
Pretty much everything I know about FF3 comes from Dan Floyd's video about its character animation, so what I know about its story is limited to what Dan thought was relevant to that particular discussion—specifically, the way that the playable characters have no character, both because they vanish into whichever job you've picked for them (as opposed to, say, FF5) and because the story goes out of its way to decharacterize them.

It doesn't even specify which character says what, which not only robs the game of practically-free characterization, but discourages the player from reading any character traits into these combat units. And even if you did, is there anything to say but "they're nice heroes"? There might be something in the experience of playing the game and reading all the incidental dialogue, but I'm genuinely not sure whether FF3's Warriors of Light have more character than FF2's. And even if they do, the fact that FF3's four player characters meld into one narrative unit who has to split that characterization four ways...not only is the characterization diluted, it's also weakened by the fact that there are three interchangeable characters next to that one at all times. That's red shirt material.

With the bar set so low, I was pleasantly surprised with the story having substance. The player characters don't, they often feel more like plot devices in other people's stories than actual protagonists, with personalities defined more by the needs of plot and game mechanics as anyone else, case in point:
Okay, I gotta admit, it's a little bit jarring that they actually do the victory pose after receiving all these cool new powers given that Aria just died in a genuinely kinda touching scene.
But aside from the main characters, the story...it's no FF7 or whatever, but it's pretty compelling.
The way the world expands is definitely neat, though I kinda wish there was more of a gap between when you left the Floating Continent and when you unflooded the rest of the world. Going around and solving a bunch of people's problems is a solid framework for the story, but it doesn't feel episodic so much as structureless. Xande being motivated by anger and desperation at suddenly being given mortality is a neat motivation, but it's presented without mortality being a consistent theme or philosophical musings on the value of death or basic explanation of why Noah thought Xande might want that, so it's more of a farce than a tragedy. It's not even a big reveal, it's just another detail mentioned in a long cutscene/monologue, which is delivered by another disciple who expects to die soon...
"And to you, Xande, my beloved disciple, I present the greatest gift: the gift of human mortality."
"But master, we are already mortal."
"Now you'll be extra mortal."
The job-swapping system seems like a big missed opportunity for me. If one character can advance in multiple different character classes, I want to be able to combine the abilities I learned in those classes, dangit! When Rushanaq switched from a long and illustrious career as a Black Mage to try summoning stuff, she should have retained some of her black spells! Make them less effective, sure, but those mage levels should have left some impact on her Evoker build beyond raw stats!

Giving status effect spells (and the usually-pointless but always-neat feature that lets you cast harmful spells on your party and beneficial spells on your opponents) additional navigational side effects is really neat. I think I like the mini dungeons better than the toad holes, since mini isn't so debilitating that dungeons become impossible without dispelling the effect, but it's neat either way, and I wish FF3 found some way to do it with more status effects. I'm not sure how you would narratively justify a dungeon you can't enter unless you self-cast Blindna or Sleep or Death, but the presence of both mini-dungeons and toad holes makes it feel like an incomplete mechanic and not just a recurring gimmick.

Overall...Omicron calls FF3 the best NES Final Fantasy game. If I stop comparing FF3's non-characters to Cloud/Tifa/Aerith/Barret and start comparing them to Firion/Maria/Leon/the other guy, this is an obvious conclusion. FF3 is nowhere near the heights that the series would eventually reach, but it's the end product of a team who spent years trying to figure out how to make this specific kind of game work on NES hardware.

The Space Flea From Nowhere accusations against the series (at least some of of the games) have irked me since FF9. Sure some are less justifiable than others but one of these days Imma put on paper search for a TED talk about how they are actually appropiate thematic conclusions to the thesis of each main villain, because hot damn most people seem to just stay with the surface reading of "wtf".
In fairness, it's entirely possible for a Space Flea From Nowhere to be an appropriate thematic conclusion to the main villain's thesis. Themes are Doylist, but calling something a SFFN is criticizing it from a Watsonian angle. "This boss is a good thematic conclusion to the game" does not contradict "The specific entity concluding that theme was not properly foreshadowed".

Like, contrast FF3's Cloud of Darkness ("darkness" was mentioned as an evil and corruptive force, kinda like Kingdom Hearts but an order of magnitude less often) to FF7's Jenovafication of Sephiroth (both Jenova and Sephiroth are mentioned in disc 1, we learn more about their connection throughout the game, Sephiroth's Jenovafication is a secondary but important part of his plans). Granted, FF7 had the Weapons (which fit the environmentalist themes but weren't really foreshadowed beyond mentioning the planet could protect itself), but they're given more room for post-hoc explanations and development than a secret final boss can.

I agree that people refusing to acknowledge anything but a literal reading of narrative is frustrating, but if you're gonna channel that into a response to criticism, you still need to respond to the actual criticism.


Got to the Oldsters of Light being tapped for the assist and started counting on my fingers. He said five souls of light, right? We're up to how many now??

But then it turns out only one of them was Light enough to count, or they were only a quarter soul of light apiece or something
I know why only one of the nameless old guys came with, but I kinda wish all four came along and collectively restrained one of the dragons. Or something.


As a person most familiar with the 3d remake of FF3 it's displacing to see such a different opening, as the 3d version of the game rather significantly retools the beginning. There you start with the lone hero Luneth and go on to pickup Arc, Refia, and Ingus in the early game to form the full party.
Worth noting is that although you pick up the other three over the course of the first hour or two, they only get unique dialog for about an hour more after that (past which theyre back to being narratively interchangeable), and still share a background of being orphans (with an added detail that the reason they're all orphans is they're the survivors of an airship crash when they were younger, its just that Topapa only adopted Luneth).
Does the 3D remake keep the early-game plot point where Cid intentionally crashes his airship while the orphans are on it? Because this additional context would make that seem like an unbelievably cruel (on top of being unbelievably reckless).


Nah, see, the Black Mage is actually secretly actually the Ninja class. It's just called Black Mage because, really, who would go around calling themselves a Ninja and expect to be taken seriously as a super-spy assassin stabby knife lady?
Yet another way that FF1 ninjas are lame.
 
I do actually think that Paragon/Renegade mechanic is reductive precisely because it encourages you to pick one and stick to it regardless of circumstances.

It fits better in Star Wars because it's in-setting lore, I guess—
I find this argument frustrating. It feels like every time I say "There are circumstances where this is a good game design choice!", you respond with "No it's not. Well, under certain circumstances it might be, but—"

Anyways, you're doing that thing where you say/imply something is bad and then just...don't explain how or why. Why is having to make a choice and stick to it, regardless of circumstances, a bad thing? Is Baldur's Gate bad because you can't reclass your character? Is Deus Ex bad because you can't change your mind about what augments you picked? Is Civilization bad because you can't change from Aztecs to Indians when jaguar warriors become obsolete? Is Undertale a bad game because the narratively interesting endings are locked behind consistency? Is Starcraft a bad game because you can't take back the resources spent on a zerg rush? Is Final Fantasy 7 a bad game because you need to worry about leveling up Materia you want to use?

Making choices that you have to stick with is a key part of strategic gameplay! It's not a bug, it's a fucking feature! Even if you don't like it, how long will it take for you to understand that other people do!?

Because you want to brew powerful potions that give you permanent stat bonuses but don't care about lesser potions imitating buffs your cleric can cast anyway, so you advance Alchemy to Grandmaster, brew enough black potions to make your party demigods, then never touch any ingredient ever again.
What I'm hearing is that you don't actually want to engage with the alchemy system, you just want to skip to the highest level of buff and pretend the rest doesn't exist. And either you assume that every other player must share the same game design values as you, or you assume your personal desires are objectively correct, because you've spent pages arguing that the things you dislike are Bad Game Design with no nuance except "well sometimes it doesn't ruin everything".


Because I want a fallback option in some circumstances, and I'm willing to pay an opportunity cost on other abilities to have that option.
But you're not willing to use stealth as a fallback option if you don't have any levels in it?

As Erebeal said, the reasonableness of that depends on gameplay details. But my whole argument was that level-by-doing (like all mechanics) can be a good thing, depending on gameplay details.


The thing with Pokemon is more... people have wanted a fairly open Pokemon game for a while, and we finally got it... but then the gyms don't scale with that open exploration, from my understanding.
Another example of decisions making sense in one gameplay context and not so much in another.
It's really not hard. You just start at the end and build an endgame team, then work backwards from there and scale it down nine times. Could probably just write a simple algorithm to do it, even.
Nothing in game development is easy. But creating alternate teams for Pokemon gyms should not require much more effort than creating the Pokemon gym in the first place. My guess is that Game Freak was trying to make educated guesses about what parts of traditional Pokemon design would need to be changed to make an unordered gym work and guessed wrong.
 
I find this argument frustrating. It feels like every time I say "There are circumstances where this is a good game design choice!", you respond with "No it's not. Well, under certain circumstances it might be, but—"

Anyways, you're doing that thing where you say/imply something is bad and then just...don't explain how or why. Why is having to make a choice and stick to it, regardless of circumstances, a bad thing? Is Baldur's Gate bad because you can't reclass your character? Is Deus Ex bad because you can't change your mind about what augments you picked? Is Civilization bad because you can't change from Aztecs to Indians when jaguar warriors become obsolete? Is Undertale a bad game because the narratively interesting endings are locked behind consistency? Is Starcraft a bad game because you can't take back the resources spent on a zerg rush? Is Final Fantasy 7 a bad game because you need to worry about leveling up Materia you want to use?

Making choices that you have to stick with is a key part of strategic gameplay! It's not a bug, it's a fucking feature! Even if you don't like it, how long will it take for you to understand that other people do!?


What I'm hearing is that you don't actually want to engage with the alchemy system, you just want to skip to the highest level of buff and pretend the rest doesn't exist. And either you assume that every other player must share the same game design values as you, or you assume your personal desires are objectively correct, because you've spent pages arguing that the things you dislike are Bad Game Design with no nuance except "well sometimes it doesn't ruin everything".



But you're not willing to use stealth as a fallback option if you don't have any levels in it?

As Erebeal said, the reasonableness of that depends on gameplay details. But my whole argument was that level-by-doing (like all mechanics) can be a good thing, depending on gameplay details.



Another example of decisions making sense in one gameplay context and not so much in another.

Nothing in game development is easy. But creating alternate teams for Pokemon gyms should not require much more effort than creating the Pokemon gym in the first place. My guess is that Game Freak was trying to make educated guesses about what parts of traditional Pokemon design would need to be changed to make an unordered gym work and guessed wrong.
You need a chill a bit. This discussion is not that serious. Tone it down a notch and a half.
 
You need a chill a bit. This discussion is not that serious. Tone it down a notch and a half.
Okay, so...what is the point of this post? I make some arguments, you make some arguments, I make some more arguments, you ignore those arguments and tell me to chill. And you think this will be effective, why? What about the unchill part of my prior post makes you think ignoring my arguments and attacking my tone would make me more chill?

If you don't want to continue the argument, don't. If you want to annoy me worse, you're doing a good job.
 
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