Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Finished: Final Fantasy Tactics]

Etranger · Oct 8, 2023

Yeah this sequence held up really well when I was a kid but as an adult with critical thinking faculties it has some profound WTF moments. Definitely one of those things you have to feel with your heart rather than think about with your head.

Also, noting here as well that Cait Sith is likely part of the horrible obnoxious mascot trend that you see in a lot of American and Japanese media around this time (the 90s). He is Final Fantasy's Urkel.

ZerbanDaGreat · Oct 8, 2023

Omicron said:
Once we've made our way out of the Looping Room, we find this: a really annoying piece of platforming in which giant three-quarter circle rocks are rolling along a bridge across the void. If they touch us, they'll pancake Cloud and drag him back to the entrance (though this does no damage). In order to make it through, we have to time our run to be under the open part of the three-quarter circle when it goes over us… And then do it again multiple times as more rocks come falling down. It's impossible to get right the first time, trial and error is the only way through, and it's damn annoying.

Rebirth better have a lavishly-produced 20-minute setpiece of the party having to avoid giant rolling cartoon boulders with perfectly them-shaped safe spots or no balls.

Omicron said:
As Tseng studies the mural and everyone is looking at him, another ghostly presence appears - then, shortly after, manifests within the vision.

I look at these images and just instantly begin hearing Cruel Angel's Thesis in my head.

Omicron said:
Sephiroth: "So cold. I am always by your side. Come."

View: https://youtu.be/CHENRaquRHo?t=43

Alternatively, he saw that one clip of Rebirth going around and decided to get a headstart on the puppy play.

Omicron said:
Cloud ignores the two calling his name, instead creepily chuckling about "Black Materia" and "Call Meteor." Aerith shouts at him to get a hold of himself, and the laughing ends with Cloud clutching his head like he does during Flashback Migraine, whispering his own name: "Cloud, I'm… Cloud…" And then his body starts splitting into an afterimage like Sephiroth's did, as if something inside him was struggling to get out, or as if he is having an argument with himself, until eventually it subsides and he manages to say "I remember! I remember my way," the light returns, and he turns around to the girls and… Says this.

Me at 4am on a Saturday morning when I haven't slept and my friends are beginning to notice that I never logged out of Discord.

Omicron said:
As Aerith explains after listening to the voices of the Ancients again, this projection above the altar isn't the Materia, it is only a projection of the Materia… That being, the entire temple.

The temple itself is the Materia. And because of its size, it can't be taken away and used by anyone. Instead, the model contains a device which shrinks the temple as you solve a series of puzzles. If you can solve all the puzzles, the temple will eventually fit into the palm of your hand, and can be used as Materia. There's only one problem: You can only access the puzzles while inside the temple, so in the process of shrinking it for use as Materia, one will inevitably be crushed to death.

I'm sorry what the fuck kind of Looney Tunes Acme Shrinking Temple-ass head-ass...

Omicron said:
Cait Sith: "Hi, Cloud. This is Cait Sith. I overheard the whole story!"
Cait Sith: "Don't forget about me. Everything you said makes perfect sense! You can use my stuffed body for the future of the Planet."
Cloud: "We can't let Sephiroth get his hands on the Black Materia. And we can't let the Shinra get theirs on it either."
Cait Sith: "But Cloud. There's really nothing else you can do. Everyone, please trust me."
[There's a dialogue option to choose whether to trust Cait Sith or not, but choosing not to just loops us until we agree.]
Cait Sith: "All righty then! Leave it to me! Please hurry, you've got to get out of here! I'll be waiting at the exit!"

Cloud: "I ain't call to talk to you, put the moogle's tummy on the phone."

Omicron said:
Cait Sith: "Looks good. You are perfect for each other! Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future!"

Cait I think you better finish reading the update before going and giving out fortunes like that-

Omicron said:
[As Cait Sith hops forward, the temple starts shaking, and he trips and falls.]
Cait Sith: "Owwww… What happened?"
Cait Sith: "I can still move more."
[He gets up and arrives in front of the altar.]
Cait Sith: "This must be it! The Ancients sure did a great job making this."
[Cait Sith turns to the camera, cat and moogle both waving to the player.]
Cait Sith: "I can protect the Planet too! I'm kinda embarrassed…"

Cait Sith: "There's plenty of stuffed toys like my body around, but there's only one me!"
Cait Sith: "Don't forget me even if another Cait Sith comes along."
[He turns back to the model.]
Cait Sith: "Good bye, then! I guess I'm off to save the Planet…"
[Fade to outside the temple, where Cloud & co are watching.]

Omicron said:
…that's how I might do it, but that's not how the game is presenting it. The way the game is telling it is very clear, someone at Shinra HQ is remotely piloting the Cait Sith robotic body, they can just roll out a new body if the first one dies, and Cait Sith turns around to the camera and pretty much says "I know the established facts of the narrative make this sacrifice meaningless and it's not really a redemption arc, but please treat it as if it were that way, thank you!" and then crushes himself to death in the temple shrinkage system.

You can tell that this arc of the game is a Final Fantasy 4 reference because it revolves around a heroic sacrifice that doesn't make one motherfucking iota of sense and is reversed eight seconds later anyway.

Omicron said:
The strange purple glow is gone, as is the influence on Cloud's mind, for now. He's left alone.

Aerith is immediately concerned with Cloud's safety - but for Cloud, this is one step farther than his usual denial/fugue/avoidance can take him. At last, he realizes what's happened - that he gave the Black Materia to Sephiroth.

Cloud screams and thrashes, struggling to grasp what happened. Aerith tries to reassure him, to tell him that it wasn't his fault, that he didn't do anything, he was under Sephiroth's influence, but…

Well, that's not quite true, is it?

Cloud's fault isn't in not being strong enough to resist Sephiroth's mind control, or in going along with his orders once he'd failed. His fault, his tragic flaw, comes much earlier than that: It's his avoidance of the problem. His refusal to ever confront the gaps in his memory, the strange visions and flashbacks he's been experiencing. He's chosen the comfort of denial, of just looking away and pretending it didn't happen every time, and because of this, he was completely unprepared for Sephiroth taking control of him.

Cloud shoves Aerith back as she tries to comfort him, hard enough she falls, and as he does he, again, splits - the phantom child!Cloud watching his adult self thrash in pain at what he's done, and what has been done to him. He's… punching? Aerith? Or the ground in front of Aerith? I hope the latter, but the low res makes it hard to see.

Given the way Aerith immediately goes limp and Cid hauls ass into the pit to grab Cloud when he sees it, I feel like it's a fairly certain thing that Cloud is currently going absolute babirusa on Aerith with his bare fists.

Again, Rebirth better keep that or no balls.

Zap Rowsdower · Oct 8, 2023

Cypocryphy said:
Ah yes. The Three Great FF7 Fandom Debates. Who do you ship Cloud with, what is the amount of control JENOVA has over Sephiroth, and finally, exactly what level of sentience does Cait Sith (the doll) have? The Compilation games eventually vaguely decide that each Cait Sith is its own individual sentient personality working in tandem with his Shinra handler, who can override "Cait" and assume direct control. Which is a nice compromise when you consider that vanilla FF7 seems to change its mind from scene to scene on just what is what.

I'll elaborate a little more when it becomes relevant, but there's some minor cut content that explains a little bit more about just what the fuck is going on with him. It'll be interesting to see how much of it, if any, will make it into Rebirth.

Anyway, I was a very small child when I first played FF7, and the entire scene from Cait Sith offering to sacrifice himself up to Cloud going nuts made me cry like a baby.

Is "why did the ancients make a magic doomsday device" a fourth, or does that actually get an explanation at some point?

Because I've seen a lot of spoilers and none of them have ever actually explained why the Black Materia was a thing outside of "it was a thing".

YOLF · Oct 8, 2023

Leaving aside the dubious mixture of completely different cultures in the visual identity of the temple and Ancients, the escalation of Sephiroth's sense of unreality in his presence here culminating in the peak of Cloud's dissociative issues is a very distressing plot sequence. Hell of a chilling point to close this update, damn.

... okay the way the game executes Cait Sith's redemptive sacrifice is just so unhinged though. I had been wondering how the game was going to turn Cait Sith around as an ally after the cuttingly blunt way he just admitted to being a spy and using them while calling up only a shred of actual sympathy and otherwise invoking shallow emotional appeals so they'd let it slide before resorting to implied hostages. I was maybe expecting the story would pull something highly convoluted about how Cait Sith being so calculatingly shameless is supposed to be largely an act and he really didn't mean any of his implied threats so that he could keep helping the party while being monitored despite having to help Shinra.

Not that. Definitely not that. The suggestion of how "Cait Sith" could be a mind upload or in some other way have a legitimately distinct perception of identity or self from the employee behind it is a good way to square this circle, but now I'm really wondering how the heck Rebirth is going to play it.

Nachtprophet · Oct 8, 2023

Fitting in with all the other FFIV call-backs I always considered Cait Siths "death" and immediate replacement a great self-parody of all those fake party member deaths in IV that were followed with the characters being perfectly alive and rejoining later.

As the whole "are the Ancients actually ancient aliens, or not" question has been brought up again, I always considered that just another case of misleadingly vague writing.

See, that explanation Sephiroth gave in the Nibelheim flashback never actually says that the cetra came from space. It's "Cetra was a itinerant race. They would migrate in, settle the Planet, then move on..." If you consider that "The Planet" is the name everyone in VII calls their world, this can easily just be a weird formulation of "The Cetra were a nomadic people that travelled across the land, made temporary settlements, then continued travelling." With the ancestors of the modern humans being the Cetra that gave up that livestyle in favor of agriculture und permanent settlements.

At least the German translation of VII seems to have used a phrasing that's closer to that reading. I'm not good enough at Japanese to definitely understand the original text, but at a cursory look at it, it's similarly vague as the translations and uses an uncommon phrase for "itinerant race" that might just be a synonym for nomads. Of course you can totally have space nomads, but I think if that was always the intended reading they would have made it more explicit.

venom3053000 · Oct 8, 2023

And just for fun, my best guess for the parties education levels

Cloud: home schooled
Tifa: home Schooled
Barret: home schooled
Aerith: either home schooled or the slums had a daycare
Red 13: home schooled by hippies
Yuffie: home schooled and ninja training
Vincent Valentine: Was a Turk so am guessing an actual school
Cid: actual rocket scientist
Cait Sith: works a drone at Shinra so am guessing at less a collage education (probably hopes to pay off the student debt by the time their fifty)

Zap Rowsdower · Oct 8, 2023

Nachtprophet said:
Fitting in with all the other FFIV call-backs I always considered Cait Siths "death" and immediate replacement a great self-parody of all those fake party member deaths in IV that were followed with the characters being perfectly alive and rejoining later.

As the whole "are the Ancients actually ancient aliens, or not" question has been brought up again, I always considered that just another case of misleadingly vague writing.

See, that explanation Sephiroth gave in the Nibelheim flashback never actually says that the cetra came from space. It's "Cetra was a itinerant race. They would migrate in, settle the Planet, then move on..." If you consider that "The Planet" is the name everyone in VII calls their world, this can easily just be a weird formulation of "The Cetra were a nomadic people that travelled across the land, made temporary settlements, then continued travelling." With the ancestors of the modern humans being the Cetra that gave up that livestyle in favor of agriculture und permanent settlements.

At least the German translation of VII seems to have used a phrasing that's closer to that reading. I'm not good enough at Japanese to definitely understand the original text, but at a cursory look at it, it's similarly vague as the translations and uses an uncommon phrase for "itinerant race" that might just be a synonym for nomads. Of course you can totally have space nomads, but I think if that was always the intended reading they would have made it more explicit.

-->were itinerant nomads
-->were also capable of building a giant step pyramid/temple complex filled with traps

Did... did that whole temple complex/materia get built in the space of the three to six months/one to two seasons nomadic societies will traditionally remain in a single place?

Nachtprophet · Oct 8, 2023

Zap Rowsdower said:
-->were itinerant nomads
-->were also capable of building a giant step pyramid/temple complex filled with traps

Did... did that whole temple complex/materia get built in the space of the three to six months/one to two seasons nomadic societies will traditionally remain in a single place?

Don't ask me. They also created a spell that destroys the planet you're standing on when you cast it. Maybe the Black Materia came first and they magically magnified it into the temple? This is were you get the Morph Materia...

ZerbanDaGreat · Oct 8, 2023

Zap Rowsdower said:
-->were itinerant nomads
-->were also capable of building a giant step pyramid/temple complex filled with traps

Did... did that whole temple complex/materia get built in the space of the three to six months/one to two seasons nomadic societies will traditionally remain in a single place?

What if it was built over a period of several years, but any given group of Cetra only worked on it for 3 to 6 months at a time, so each tribe contributed their own room/puzzle, and that's why it's so fucking whacky in there.

Thozmp · Oct 8, 2023

Zap Rowsdower said:
Did... did that whole temple complex/materia get built in the space of the three to six months/one to two seasons nomadic societies will traditionally remain in a single place?

ZerbanDaGreat said:
What if it was built over a period of several years, but any given group of Cetra only worked on it for 3 to 6 months at a time, so each tribe contributed their own room/puzzle, and that's why it's so fucking whacky in there.

So, you're saying that the Temple was built by a succession of mad men, each with their own brand of madness?

McFluffles · Oct 8, 2023

ZerbanDaGreat said:
Given the way Aerith immediately goes limp and Cid hauls ass into the pit to grab Cloud when he sees it

Damn, Cid's Domestic Abuse Radar is on point, huh? Must have gotten a lot of experience with it somehow.

YOLF said:
... okay the way the game executes Cait Sith's redemptive sacrifice is just so unhinged though. I had been wondering how the game was going to turn Cait Sith around as an ally after the cuttingly blunt way he just admitted to being a spy and using them while calling up only a shred of actual sympathy and otherwise invoking shallow emotional appeals so they'd let it slide before resorting to implied hostages. I was maybe expecting the story would pull something highly convoluted about how Cait Sith being so calculatingly shameless is supposed to be largely an act and he really didn't mean any of his implied threats so that he could keep helping the party while being monitored despite having to help Shinra.

Yeah see, I would have expected a slow redemption arc where the fairly insincere bits of "oh you know I kind of like you guys honest" from last updates... became actually sincere, and maybe the intern or whoever behind Cait Sith would help the party rescue Marlene or something. Could easily be an arc that takes place over the next ten hours of gameplay.

But nope, instant "redemption" in the very next area of the game, it's absolutely wild. Though I suppose from the perspective of party members other than Cloud and Aerith, it is in fact a dramatic sacrifice??? Except then a new Cait Sith shows up immediately after which should absolutely raise questions of "wait didn't you/your robot just die" and how it got there so fast. Idunno, maybe the party theory-crafted that Cait Sith is Dio's Fursona and every time he gets KOed in battle a helicopter just airdrops another one to the party, so this isn't even unusual.

WestOrEast · Oct 8, 2023

Omicron said:
Why on earth would they build a doomsday device Materia???

Why not?

ArlequineLunaire · Oct 8, 2023

Omicron said:
Sloppy on Seph's part, if you ask me.

Hah, you said the word!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXWmgX-V02k

Egyptian murals inside an Aztec pyramid.

This is making me irrationally mad. Ancient things are not interchangeable. I get that the Ancients are fictional but - you can't just grab a literal Egyptian mural, down to THE STYLE OF HATS AND HYEROGLYPHS, and put it in a Mesoamerican pyramid!! You can't do that!! It's illegal!!!

Morrowind says Hi.

About the Red Dragon, while the name sounds generic, it was a title given to Satan or at least an associate of his in the Book of Revelation, so it's fitting given the revelation (NPI) of a doomsday device (also makes that one Spyro villain seem more portentous). There was also a Persona Quest on SV where he was planned to have a major role, hence me being quick to remember the Biblical figure.

As for why the Ancients would make a doomsday device, since the closest thing we've made to one is the Atomic Bomb and I've talked before about whether the Ancients are Jewish-coded... I'm now wondering if they fought against space!Nazis back in their day

Guile · Oct 8, 2023

As much as FF7 lived in my head rent-free since 12-year-old me played it, the Temple of the Ancients has been completely erased from my brain.

Omicron said:
It's funny. Once again, I can see how that exchange's original context might get blurry over time and someone might come out of this thinking, 'Aerith is so pure of heart she'll even weep for Tseng', when the reality of that scene is a lot… Sadder? There's something really poignant to Aerith having had so few people who truly knew her that she ends up mourning a man who abducted her and delivered her to Hojo because he's the closest thing she's got to a family friend.

Which is kind of crazy, for someone as personable as Aerith. I guess she was a lot more careful of letting people close than she outwardly appears. She was, technically, in hiding from ShinRa since like age 5.

The Ancient (and other identical Ancients we'll meet throughout the dungeon) acts as a save point, inn, and shop all at once, which we probably shouldn't be looking too hard at (why do they need money?).

I'm assuming they eat it. Nyum nyum!

Noxlux013 · Oct 8, 2023

Omicron said:
Which is, amazingly, the moment Cait Sith picks to come back.

Gun Jam said:
Where do they store these things, that he got over so quickly?

Actually, that's a good point. I've been vaguely assuming the guy controlling Cait Sith is floating in a sensory deprivation tank, or wearing a NERVgear, or something, back in the Sector 0 Shinra Arcology. But that's how far away? Genuine question, I have no clue where we are or which continent we're on now. But Cait Sith is able to participate in combat without communication lag between drone and controller.

So maybe the guy is in some sort of 18 wheeler turned command center with a dozen replacement Cait Sith waiting just over the horizon, tailing the party from a dozen miles away. And healing spells don't actually work on machines, we're actually on Cait Sith N° 47 and the controller has been swapping the drones in the middle of the night and then refusing to elaborate come morning.

foamy · Oct 8, 2023

Cait Sith is a robot Moogle controlled by a mind-controlled/possessed clone cat controlled by someone in Shinra. That is why they were equipped with the Manipulate materia, you see.

SolipsistSerpent · Oct 8, 2023

Oh thank god I'm not the only one who felt like they were taking crazy pills when they got to the Cait Sith 'sacrifice' part right after the theft, kidnapping, and extortion.

sweetd · Oct 8, 2023

In dirge of cerberberus we see cait sith and reeve face to face talking to each other and reeve is very much still the pilot, so yes cait sith is very much self aware at the very least

Skyspear · Oct 8, 2023

sweetd said:
In dirge of cerberberus

There is a separate spoiler thread if you want to discuss that; I'd feel leery of posting something like that in this thread.

The Omicron Plays Final Fantasy Spoiler Thread

So that the original thread doesn't end up one long series of boxes and black bars~ Completed: FFI to VIII Current: Tactics Omi has already played (to some extent): FFIX (vaguely remembers), FFXIV Please do not directly quote Omicron in this thread, though quoting in a way that doesn't ping...

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

Indivisible · Oct 8, 2023

*Cait Sith shows up again immediately after a Heroic Sacrifice tm*
Everyone expect Cloud and Aerith, who are unconscious for different reasons: WTF
Cait Sith: Hey cats have nine lives yanno!

Omegahugger · Oct 9, 2023

Omicron said:
This is making me irrationally mad. Ancient things are not interchangeable. I get that the Ancients are fictional but - you can't just grab a literal Egyptian mural, down to THE STYLE OF HATS AND HYEROGLYPHS, and put it in a Mesoamerican pyramid!! You can't do that!! It's illegal!!!

But Egyptian and Mesoamerican pyramids are the same!

Both were built by ~~Aliens~~Cetrans.

foamy · Oct 9, 2023

Omegahugger said:
But Egyptian and Mesoamerican pyramids are the same!

Both were built by ~~Aliens~~Cetrans.

Ancient aliens, at that.

Cataquack · Oct 9, 2023

The whole Cait Sith "self-sacrifice" gimmick sort of reminds me of this ploy that someone pulled in the mystery manga series Q.E.D. The character in question is a serial manipulator and liar, and he has pissed off plenty of people. To get them to let go of their grudges, he arranged for them all to sail on a boat with him. He then made it look like he had been stabbed and murdered, but was really still alive. The idea was that the trauma of seeing him dead at last would sate their thirst for revenge, even when he turned up alive later. Didn't quite work out for the guy, though; one of the guests was worried his girlfriend would be arrested for the murder, so he decided to mess up the crime scene by stabbing the victim more times (actually killing him this time). But anyway, I think that Cait Sith's gambit here is kind of similar; he hopes that the emotional ordeal of his supposed self-sacrifice will quell people's distrust of him, even after he returns from the dead.

MiskWisk · Oct 9, 2023

Omicron said:
Morph is weird, potentially game-breaking Command: what it does is deliver a very weak attack, but if that attack would kill the enemy

There is a bug/intended game feature with a certain weapon that allows you to deal full damage despite having Morph equipped. You don't have it yet, but if you stumble across it I'll (try to remember) to mention it.

Zap Rowsdower said:
Is "why did the ancients make a magic doomsday device" a fourth, or does that actually get an explanation at some point?

Because I've seen a lot of spoilers and none of them have ever actually explained why the Black Materia was a thing outside of "it was a thing".

Not really. Personally, I just consider it the ultimate, "Oh Shit," button.

Sort of like the Osterhagen Key from Doctor Who. Something to use if taking out the Planet is the lesser of two evils.

Walter · Oct 9, 2023

I feel like this update is kind of the gold standard iconic Sephiroth. All later Sephiroth characterization, where he's just this cryptic and messianic presence, who responds to absolutely any question or statement with dark epiphany mad libs, finds its origin here.

It is also worth considering that the emotional throughline of the story (the gang want to kill Sephiroth because of what he's done) would be equally fulfilled if he was, like, taking a train ride around the country to count all the birds or whatever. The whole revelation rollercoaster where every place gives us another tantalizing hint at how the bad guys are being bad guys is entirely beside the point.

This is not a criticism, mind, this whole thing absolutely slaps (Aerith).

Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Finished: Final Fantasy Tactics]

Daemon Noble of D E M O G R A P H I C S

Ex-cultist vagrant

Registered Lurker

Ex-cultist vagrant

Registered Lurker

Daemon Noble of D E M O G R A P H I C S

Gets my kicks above the waistline, Sunshine.

The future's now, old man! (Avatar Art by me)

Having a really great time right now

Lying liar who lies.

Endlessly Devouring

Inattentive Idiot

Lying liar who lies.

Hoot