somewhatLazy
Serial Procrastinator
- Location
- lurking
I also like one of dialogue options you can get for being aloof:
Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Playing: Final Fantasy IX]
- Thread starter Omicron
- Start date
- Let's Play
- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Based Aerith
AERITH: Put on the dress, Cloud, or Tifa will have to pilot again -
Guile
Having a really great time right now
Wall Market: that time FF7 briefly turned into a point-and-click adventure game with overtones of dating sim.
Wall Market is why so many people were so sure FF7 wouldn't ever get that Remake treatment, despite everyone clamoring for it for the better part of two decades. The Honeybee Inn was too weird, too wild, they couldn't import it as-is, but a lot of people really liked Wall Market, weirdness and all. It was iconic. You couldn't just cut it.
Then Remake knocked it out of the goddamn park, more than any of us ever expected.
Wall Market is why so many people were so sure FF7 wouldn't ever get that Remake treatment, despite everyone clamoring for it for the better part of two decades. The Honeybee Inn was too weird, too wild, they couldn't import it as-is, but a lot of people really liked Wall Market, weirdness and all. It was iconic. You couldn't just cut it.
Then Remake knocked it out of the goddamn park, more than any of us ever expected.
Ah yes. Reminds me of that bit in Ace Combat 7 where the AWACS operator talks about wanting to eat at some Italian restaurant.
In a game where the world map looks like this.
Honestly it reads more to me as SE revising the sequence to hit the same vibe of Wall Market as a dangerous place that's rough to live in, but is also a queer haven, while cleaning out the mid-90s cruft.
FelOnyx
Love and Peace!
- Location
- Gunsmoke
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Now if they said New Zealand food, that'd check out. Well, it might be a bit too frozen to grow food down there.
On a similar note, one of the best lines in the Remake is Cloud meeting Tifa in Corneo's mansion, Cloud still in drag:
Tifa: "Cloud?! Is that you!? Oh my god, that makeup! And that dress!"
Cloud: "Nailed it, I know. Thank you. Moving on."
This is actually an invention of the English localization team, Cloud's line in Japanese is something more like "I don't need to hear it, there was no other way." Big improvement.
Oh boy, suffice to say after replaying this section myself I've been... I don't know if looking forward to this update, but... interested in what someone else has to say about a lot of it.
Look, we already established Texas, what's wrong with Korea hiding there somewhere too?
And in barely related notes, since the discussion a while ago about the Dragon Quest series I actually went back and started playing Dragon Quest 3 again, which funny enough has a world map that very clearly makes use of our actual globe, to the point that some guides will tell me stuff like "oh yeah head to the town at the bottom part of South America".
Hey, nothing wrong with a girl that likes her boys pretty.
And yes, yet another early character beat for Aerith that makes it clear she's not some demure healing maiden. You know, starting to think FF7 has that good old fanbase issue of "whoops turns out half the fans were raised on fanfiction and haven't interacted with the source material."
Granted that somehow also includes Square themselves, so...
Is there a text speed option anywhere in the menu? I hadn't bothered myself since the text is fast enough while playing unlike some games out there, but there might be a faster/instant text option for screenshots.
Hey, picked the best options first try! Nice.
It is a sidequest on... many levels. And honestly, a good chunk of it flew right over my head as a kid.
Case in point: I don't think I connected the dots on Big Bro at all at the time, and just... I don't know, certainly didn't click as involving cross dressing or anything on Big Bro's part.
And other case in point: I never figured out how to enter the Honey Bee Inn as a kid. Heck, on this current playthrough? I entered, went "wait I need to go save, left... and promptly discovered that you can only enter once, and had to reload an older save
"Funny except when it's not" is... an apt description, that's for sure.
...Yeah, I can't really see it. I mean, I can see how people would see it but it absolutely doesn't click that way for me.
Besides, if we want mild sexual assault undertones we still got the other room in the Honey Bee Inn.
Case in point.
It's funny how you can tell how much Aerith likes someone depending on the prices, too. IIRC there's one guy that's like "500 gil and I got her name", Johnny got a flower for around 10 gil, and of course if you buy a flower off of her after the first mission way back when it's only 1 gil for Cloud.
Either Or Both. Honestly I figure it's both, considering what the Don is like once we actually meet him.
Easy enough to forget when you've spent half the game's playtime so far doofing around and crossdressing with Aerith, to be fair.
And of course, you can also take a different route and instead talk about how you have a boyfriend named Barret. Can only imagine the laughs Cloud would get out of that conversation with the man himself later.
I mean, if he isn't dead in an update or two from an eighth of a city falling on him.
Fun fact, some translations apparently swap "cut/rip/crush it" with "cut/rip/crush them". I'll leave it up to the audience to decide whether that's better or worse.Anyway, whether it comes as comeuppance after rescuing a female teammate or as the payoff to Cloud being good at girling, the scene that follows is great. The three throw off their disguises, returning to their standard field sprites, and corner Corneo on his bed, demanding to know what he learned from his men, and threaten to hit him directly where it would hurt the most:
It's one hell of a blame game plan, can't deny that. Killing thousands to tens of thousands of people just to blame it on a terrorist group and wipe them out at the same time? Absolutely vile evil, but most certainly a good way for Shinra to grab more power and control.
Smh should've brought those float materias.
The Don's already a big guy, might as well summarize his original name was Don Jabba at this point when he straight up has a Rancor in the basement.
Also comes with a chance of paralyzing enemies! Oh and is also an objective upgrade to Braver since it has a higher damage multipler and the same charge time as it's also a level 1 limit break, but to be honest that's most of the limit breaks in the same level as each other.
Haven't the games been doing this since all the way back in FF1 to some extent or another? Granted it's a bit more noticeable in FF7 with 3D models where the weapons are always out and ready than in older games where you just briefly see "yo that new sword is brown instead of blue" while someone's swinging said weapon, but still, progress.
And that's also caught right back up to where I am! I gotta get back to playing more before I'm left behind, if I want to make sure things are fresh in memory for discussions.
- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Also, the FF7 Machinabridged gave Reeve what is one of my favourite lines in this section
President Shinra: Now now Reeve, you can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs
Reeve: Alright, let me give an analogy for you. It's like trying to make an omlette... BY DROPPING A SECTION OF THE CITY, ON TOP OF ANOTHER SECTION OF THE CITY!
President Shinra: Now now Reeve, you can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs
Reeve: Alright, let me give an analogy for you. It's like trying to make an omlette... BY DROPPING A SECTION OF THE CITY, ON TOP OF ANOTHER SECTION OF THE CITY!
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Guile
Having a really great time right now
Hm. I'm not sure this is the place for it (yet?) but I do think the sewers/train graveyard is one of two spots that Remake kind of dropped the ball compared to the original. This one, by expanding something that really didn't need expanding when we have places to be, goddamn.
This is absolutely ShinRa breaking his own toys to kill an ant. It's Captain Planet-tier 'run an oil tanker aground on a beach to teach those smug sea-lions a lesson' corporate villainy. And it works, because rich people have no sense of perspective, this is known, but Christ.
The thing is, ShinRa already HAS all the power and control. The civilian government is either a mouth-piece or completely impotent.
This is absolutely ShinRa breaking his own toys to kill an ant. It's Captain Planet-tier 'run an oil tanker aground on a beach to teach those smug sea-lions a lesson' corporate villainy. And it works, because rich people have no sense of perspective, this is known, but Christ.
- Location
- NC
That's a huge relief to learn. Literally my first reaction to hearing FF7 was getting a remake was, 'I hope they change the Honey Bee Inn scenes.' It was an uncomfortable surprise the first time I played through, and I did my best to speed through and not pay attention whenever I replayed the game.
- Location
- SV's Only Complete Persona Quest
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Thing I thought of: The item being called Sexy Cologne implies the existence of Unsexy Cologne
Zap Rowsdower
Ex-cultist vagrant
- Location
- Bright lights, big city
- Pronouns
- He/Him
- Location
- Te Ika-a-Māui
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I would have gone for lynx/axe, but that's technically not a cologne.
The whole queer part of this section is giving me big Cyber Six vibes, which is another shockingly queer 90s property and kids cartoon series with a trans/genderqueer/transvestite main character (the author's used the word transvestite, which was also used for trans people in that time period in Argentina).
Nottheunmaker
Altman be praised
- Location
- USG Ishimura
Meanwhile, I was taking bets on if they'd add a secret pink wig a la Lighting. That there isn't struck me as a weird missed opportunity. I remember Lighting being explicitly described as Cloud again, but a woman. Was FF13 really that bad?
Kuja
I'M A SQUIIIID
- Location
- AZ
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Hot take, perhaps: Wall Market is one of the major home runs FF7 scored that secured its lasting fanbase.
Wall Market is in a way the Rocky Horror Picture Show, Final Fantasy edition. Undeniably of its time. Undeniably messy. Undeniably leaning, at times, into what are now considered outdated or harmful jokes.
And yet Wall Market is undeniably an adventure. The writers made a crucial decision that most of the jokes about Cloud's journey were going to come from a place of absurd positivity - the punchline of so many of Wall Market's jokes is how attractive Cloud is, or how much love there is in places like the gym. "You can't wear a wig, bro!" "Why not, bro?" "Because, bro, then I've got nothing to wear!" Even when the storytelling tips over into some of the more gross stereotypes, it's trying to play things off like "a bunch of manly bodybuilders grab Cloud against his will and...carry him off for a shower, because good hygiene is important, bro." Meanwhile, the butt of the harshest jokes are the zombified Corneo henchman, or Corneo himself being made to squirm.
All of this lends Wall market a weird air of fist-pumping joy. Of all possible messages, Midgar's red light district has a story that screams "Be awesome to one another! Respect other people! Don't be an asshole!"
Yeah, it's not perfect. Yeah, there's some moments where Wall Market comes a little back down to earth to remind us that the slums ain't great. But it's astonishing how much it tries, especially coming as it does from a time when it didn't have to try at all. Wall Market could easily have had an entirely different story, one that would have left a black mark on FF7's legacy, but instead it surprised everyone by almost completely dodging that bullet.
Related to all this, another piece of the FF7 puzzle is the meeting of Aeris & Tifa. Once again, FF7 could have slid right down the stereotype of storytelling and sprouted a completely standard love triangle between the trio. And instead of going down that route, they...basically just ignored it. Instead of getting catty, Tifa and Aeris are practically besties at first sight, both women propping each other up in much the same way the gym bros of Wall Market have been propping one another up.
In both the original and the remake, Wall Market's aesthetic, its cast of characters, and the effect both have on our game's mainstays are one of the high points of the game, a truly memorable and...frankly even today unique experience.
Wall Market is in a way the Rocky Horror Picture Show, Final Fantasy edition. Undeniably of its time. Undeniably messy. Undeniably leaning, at times, into what are now considered outdated or harmful jokes.
And yet Wall Market is undeniably an adventure. The writers made a crucial decision that most of the jokes about Cloud's journey were going to come from a place of absurd positivity - the punchline of so many of Wall Market's jokes is how attractive Cloud is, or how much love there is in places like the gym. "You can't wear a wig, bro!" "Why not, bro?" "Because, bro, then I've got nothing to wear!" Even when the storytelling tips over into some of the more gross stereotypes, it's trying to play things off like "a bunch of manly bodybuilders grab Cloud against his will and...carry him off for a shower, because good hygiene is important, bro." Meanwhile, the butt of the harshest jokes are the zombified Corneo henchman, or Corneo himself being made to squirm.
All of this lends Wall market a weird air of fist-pumping joy. Of all possible messages, Midgar's red light district has a story that screams "Be awesome to one another! Respect other people! Don't be an asshole!"
Yeah, it's not perfect. Yeah, there's some moments where Wall Market comes a little back down to earth to remind us that the slums ain't great. But it's astonishing how much it tries, especially coming as it does from a time when it didn't have to try at all. Wall Market could easily have had an entirely different story, one that would have left a black mark on FF7's legacy, but instead it surprised everyone by almost completely dodging that bullet.
Related to all this, another piece of the FF7 puzzle is the meeting of Aeris & Tifa. Once again, FF7 could have slid right down the stereotype of storytelling and sprouted a completely standard love triangle between the trio. And instead of going down that route, they...basically just ignored it. Instead of getting catty, Tifa and Aeris are practically besties at first sight, both women propping each other up in much the same way the gym bros of Wall Market have been propping one another up.
In both the original and the remake, Wall Market's aesthetic, its cast of characters, and the effect both have on our game's mainstays are one of the high points of the game, a truly memorable and...frankly even today unique experience.
There is, of course, a very good reason for dodging the love triangle plot, namely Aeris' relationship with Zack, but a first-time player of FF7 wouldn't know that, and the early impressions of fans is what I'm talking about here.
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I missed so much stuff in this section when I first played through the game. I was completely oblivious to things I didn't even know were missing, and I still thought this was a great sequence.
(I had no idea until, like... 2015, that the Honey Bee Inn was an actual location you could go into that had modeled characters and such.)
(I had no idea until, like... 2015, that the Honey Bee Inn was an actual location you could go into that had modeled characters and such.)
Guile
Having a really great time right now
It's not that, although yes, FF13 is pretty universally (although, I think, somewhat unfairly) panned.
It's that as much as FF7 Remake is the biggest and most involved love letter to its source material in the history of gaming, it doesn't really go in for anything like crossover potential that might dilute the inherent FF7-ness of it all.
dhasenan
always lowercase
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Cloud can't say "but Tifa is part of Avalanche" because that's get-your-friend-killed level of secret, so he has to let the flower girl who's surprisingly good at thwacking stuff with a big stick help shake down a mob boss.
Cloud wasn't ready to talk about his sexuality before, and now he's not ready to talk about his gender. Poor person.
mothematics
How wide is the concept of "you"?
- Location
- the bottom of a coffee cup
- Pronouns
- She/Her
aerith sees cloud in the dress and instantly invents a new spell called strapaga
- Location
- SV's Only Complete Persona Quest
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Or Strap 3 given the translation we're on
ZerbanDaGreat
Daemon Noble of D E M O G R A P H I C S
- Pronouns
- They/them
If, instead, we choose to pick the other room, labeled the 'Group Room,' the girl asks Cloud if he picked that room because he's lonely, then says 'everyone is waiting,' which slightly confuses Cloud, and then this happens.
A pack of bodybuilders led by Mukki barge into the room and corner Cloud; Mukki declares they should 'all wash their sweat and dirt together', grab Cloud (it's strongly implied that they undress him first), and then bodily drag him into the bathtub, where the entire group squeezes itself:
I don't… I don't know, man. What do you even want me to say at this point. What am I supposed to make of this scene.
Ten brooos, sitting in a hot tuuuuub, clipping their models into each other 'cause they're totes gay
The thing is, all of these scenes are basically punishment for failing to navigate Wall Market properly. If you collect the right items, Cloud is picked, and the sequence that then plays out has the potential to be some high tier comedy. Because what happens is Corneo is flustered and stammering and asks Cloud a series of questions like "Do you like me too?" and "What do you want to do?" and we have the option every time of an aloof or a flirty answer, which culminates in Corneo asking Cloud for a kiss, and if we say yes to that…
How the turns table.
Like, what happens there is that after Aerith got her fun by putting Cloud in a dress and teasing him since the moment they met, Cloud turns it around by being picked as Corneo's favorite and then playing along with him until Tifa and Aerith have to barge into the room to stop him from kissing Corneo. He outplayed them.
It's a great beat.
Love the equivalent scene in Remake, and not just because Cloud is always picked so there's no risk of Tifa and Aerith being Imperiled Like That. I'll never forget how Corneo's reaction to Cloud decloaking as a man is, rather than gay panic, just vague annoyance at having his time wasted.
Thinking about how Remake strands you in that sewer for an hour because boy did they pad that out with extra 'dungeon' time, though it's still not the most egregious example on display.
Don't forget Aerith knocking a goon the fuck out with a folding chair.