In other words while our boy has tech that makes 2+2 equal kumquat, the reapers sensors are seeing the ripple effect in that now their sensors read 2+2 as equalling 4.091 instead of just 4. The shift is enough that with study the reapers get marginal upgrades, while our boy's empire is still god-teir in comparison.

Pretty much. Though if you think about it -- what are the odds that for example a Babylon 5 hyperspace plane existed in the Mass Effect dimension before Andes started throwing around Jumpgate technology? Or subspace. Or the laws of physics that make artificial gravity without eezo a thing? It's one thing to have the engineering techniques and schematics necessary to exploit those principles of the mechanics of the universe; it's another thing for those principles to be present in that universe. I've been hinting at this for a while now.

Best to step softly- and leave only canyons of evaporated matter if you must intervene.
Hey now, he's trying to be nice.

And no, that's not a codephrase for deploying the Collimated Coronal Mass Ejection Cannons. (AKA: Stellar Disruptors ; AKA "planet shattering beam weapon goes BRRRRR!")
 
Hehe hahaha @Logos01 I loved that game. Late game I'd send planetoids equipped with spinal Stellar Disruptor beams, with Lightning Array for CIWS and AA/AM , with mini SD cannon for antiship weapons. By the time I get to Orion the Guardian is barely a threat.

The series ended with MOO 2. Everything else many fans treat as AU
 
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@Logos01 Okay so I just started reading this and so far so good. (just finished chap. 3) But one thing I have to point out is that some of the worlds you go to I have never heard of before, never watched the show or I don't get the references to to the world so that I know which world you are talking about. It would be super helpful if you could put a little info post at the end of the chapter that tells readers what world you went to in the chapter. Or a link. Just something. It would be so helpful.

Also I had no idea what world you went to in Chapter 3 when you mentioned The American Empire. Never heard of it before. Took me a while to look it up.
 
@Logos01 Okay so I just started reading this and so far so good. (just finished chap. 3) But one thing I have to point out is that some of the worlds you go to I have never heard of before, never watched the show or I don't get the references to to the world so that I know which world you are talking about. It would be super helpful if you could put a little info post at the end of the chapter that tells readers what world you went to in the chapter. Or a link. Just something. It would be so helpful.

Also I had no idea what world you went to in Chapter 3 when you mentioned The American Empire. Never heard of it before. Took me a while to look it up.
Yeah, it's actually rather obnoxious when authors do that, and it is kind of niche content from that setting. All I can say is keep reading -- while I do intentionally use settings without always explaining exactly what they are or where they're from, I do at least 'call back' to them with clear references most of the time. Part of that is the development of the cosmology of the story as the story progresses.
 
Chapter 86: Diminishing Returns
Q4Y24


It's funny how, sometimes, events converge despite being entirely disparate from one another.

I was standing in the virtual meeting space construct with The Doctor, as she was displaying the result of six months of study and progress with the Damarian dragons. I was ... less than enthused with what I was looking at. "Would you care to explain to me, Doctor, exactly why 'putting big black spikes and tentacles on them' was your idea of progress, here?"

The Doctor hemmed slightly, before waving her hand to show the relevant dataslides. "It... does evoke bad iconoggraphics memetically speaking, doesn't it? Yes. These little ... creatures ... gave us quite a bit of consternation, Maker, I am not ashamed to say. The difficulties in breeding new stock was only exceeded by the outright impossibility of directly cloning them. The various cloning methodologies at our disposal have consistently failed to create viable organisms. Without access to that, we were required to revert to vat-grown subjects and forced maturation methods. This had some amount of success, of course, but the subjects we created were even smaller than the original stock."

She raised her glasses up higher on her nose ridge. In a virtual construct. Her eyes didn't even need... bah. I did, however, cross my arms and pointedly refuse to sigh. "I'm not seeing, Doctor, how that gets us to edgelord-skin dragons. Please, connect those dots for me."

She smiled wanly. "Indeed. The key to our discovery of this 'improvement', your holy majesty, came from an almost entirely accidental source; none of our known methods were working to improve the creatures' development, so we sent them to the Seekers' chantries in the deadworlds to determine if Dho-Na rituals could be used to at least give us a path to further development. The oddity came from the inversion of the expected outcome; we did indeed find an improvement in development maturation outcomes of the vat-grown dragons. But only in the control groups."

I blinked, and examined the specific bit of data more closely. "That ... despite every ritual tried? Wait. The maturation... ahh. Now I see why the spikes."

The Doctor nodded in affirmation. "The twinned data-points of the 'eldritch' rites failing to promote positive outcomes, and the variance in the control-groups' outcomes based on their proximity to the local hyperplanar taps that provided the power for the facilities. Yes. We did not have a solid model to explain that phenomenon until we started observing the thaumic magnitude variances of the matured dragons. It seems that dragons grown closer to hyperplanar taps have stronger thaumic signatures. Heartstones utilized for 'magic' purposes also regenerate more quickly on a function correlated to proximity to hyperplanar taps ... but have no measurable impact on the operation of the taps themselves. Nor have we measured any thaumic fluctuations on any of the planar realms our taps connect to."

I furrowed my brow in confusion. "Well that's frustrating. What are your current conjectures on the matter?"

A new panel of data displays flickered into being with yet another wave of her hand. "As with all sorcerous phenomena, precise quantification is ... challenging. And with the data indicating that the presence of eldritch phenomena actually impedes the formation of the non-eldritch magical energies, we have had to re-think many of our methods. The progress we have managed to make has come from the little we have been able to make has been due to the Computation Orbs you acquired the schematics for immediately before the Incident. While the operational mathematics involved are very different from Dho-Na Curvature mathematics, and we lack the means to fully power Orb devices, we have been able to make some basic progress in better-tuned sensor equipment for our purposes."

I stared at her. "Get to the point, Doc."

She cleared her throat. "Yes. Well. We managed to observe thaumic flows of non-eldritch energies. What we saw has been rigorously corroborated, and we developed additional testing regimens as seen in these datagrams to confirm it. The non-eldritch thaumic energies of the heartstones, and the dragons by extension, form more readily when the boundaries between planes are weaker, and the boundaries between dimensions are stronger. If the eldritch energies are thus extra-dimensional; the 'arcane' energies are extra-planar."

I reviewed the displayed datagrams -- they tested this by having a batch of maturation vats containing immature dragons passed through numerous gateways between known planes over and over again, in different configurations of each. As well as being closer and further from hyperplanar taps. And sure enough; the development was more effective for them when this was done. "Extraplanar ... as in native to a dimension, but not native to any defined space within that dimension. Lovely... yet another angle of concern to deal with things beyond our ability to fully grasp them that might intrude upon our existence. Joy upon joy."

The Doctor noded sternly. "If nothing else, Great Maker, the extradimensional warding mechanisms you have historically insisted upon would still be effective protections against such. And as we have seen with the implantation of minute-scale hyperplanar taps in maturing dragons, we can use this method to increase their body volume by roughly a factor of five ... while simultaneously increasing their thaumic output from 0.3 microthaums to 50 microthaums."

That was ... almost two hundred times more potent, per dragon. Still not that much, considering the tithing of the Seekers started at a minimum of one millithaum per seeker, each month. Still -- it was progress. I looked over the next segment of data being presented. "Wait. Everything you've demonstrated thus far was that the arcane energies are incompatible on many levels with the eldritch. What from this is indicative of being compatible with the process of the Seekers' tithings to make it worth trying to combine the two?"

The Doctor shook her head mildly. "It is more the formation -- or more accurately the manifestation -- of one form that is impeded by the presence of the other. Once already present they do not seem to have a deleterious effect outside of warding and banishment regimens. With the dragons already needing to be vat-grown at Seeker monastaries and chantries in order to grow to full size anyhow, it seems only natural that if we could integrate them with the current tithing processes that it would be ideal to do so. And as you might recall, the only portion of the process that's truly eldritch in nature is the soul-bonding. Transferrence of arcane energies via eldritch soul-bond might not be the most efficient process, but as the core of the tithing process is in fact the Philosopher's Stone material, it should be possible to imbue draconic heartstone energies into the Stone material and allow transferrence that way."

I tilted my head. "And that would give our necromancers the ability to operate as proper sorcerors instead. Myself included. I cannot complain about this concept."

Yes. This was progress. It still wasn't going to be enough to do what I'd hoped it could accomplish ... not without taking decades longer than I was comfortable taking, but it was still progress.



I found myself once again accompanied by Commander Shaleson. This time, my accompaniment included something that I should have seen coming but never really thought about; one Chaplain-Lieutenant Samuel Danvers. It had apparently been 'decided' by the General and the Shade leadership that despite my rather copious ability to protect myself, even though I was only transiting as an avatar rather than my original self. Even after all this time of living with being a head of state, even with that having been something I actively intended to occur, it still felt strange to have to have a permanent bodyguard retinue.


The question of what, exactly, they would be able to accomplish in my defense should the need arise was a deeper one that I didn't much like the potential answers to: I wasn't yet so far gone that the idea of someone willingly committing suicide-by-abomination in order to buy me the time necessary to flee had become something I could be comfortable with. And yet ... that was exactly what the Shaleson's team had signed up for. It was even why they'd brought on a rotation of chaplains -- that was, Shades who were also Bearers with at least four decades of experience in that role before signing on as Shades -- to further facilitate the team in that capacity.


Happily, today was a day that would involve little more than continuous boredom on the part of the Shades in my service. Though even then, I'd taken some small liberties in arranging for reducing the total boredom involved. For myself, obviously, but also for Shaleson and Danvers -- the idea of making them wait in line at Babylon station's customs ingress was just too petty to indulge. So instead I was using remote Synth bodies for the three of us, mostly operated via non-sapient Host controller until we got to see Officer Zack Allen's eminently unenthused mug.


He, of course, was staring into his scanner/reader without even bothering to look up -- you could tell it had been a slow day for him as well -- and held out his hand expectantly. "Identicard, please."

Shaleson, in her synthsleeve, held out the three cards for myself, for the good chaplain, and her own without saying a word.

Allen's eyes boggled ever so slightly as he looked at the first card's readout. And a little further again when he looked up from it and saw the three of us -- and more specifically me. "Holy Hannah … what the hell … I mean, hello, your Emperorness… err. I'm sorry, we weren't expecting you -- let me get the ambassadorial honorguar--"

Shaleson reached out to interrupt Allen before he could activate his commlink, pulling him slightly aside. "Mr. Allen. Can I call you Zack? Well, Zack, I want you to think very carefully about the fact that His Holiness isn't on any incoming schedule; and that we arrived on an Earthforce transport shuttle. I want you to think about how a head of state would feel about having his careful efforts at staying low-key on this visit ruined by some well-intentioned security guard's attempts to give that head of state a welcome committee he didn't want. Take all the time you need." She paused, almost as if hitching for breath. "Had enough? Good. Now, I want you to process the remaining IdentiCards and confirm whether or not we match them -- no special favors there, all above board -- and then I want you to forget you saw us. Can you do that for me?"

Allen just nodded, his face pinched with an awkwardness that was equalled only by the mild-mannered intensity that Shaleson's demeanor embodied. "Y.. yeah." He swiped the other two cards while barely even looking at the readouts, and started pulling at the collar of his neck.

I couldn't help it. "You know, Mr. Allen, I hear the Minbari have just utterly exceptional tailors in their Worker caste."

He adamantly looked away from me. Everybody's a critic.

It took barely twenty minutes of a semi-meandering wander about the receiving facilities of the station before we reached a set of quarters quietly rented out in advance of our arrival, whereupon I grabbed Shaleson and Danvers' actual bodies with just enough tightness as to draw them through the gap between spaces with me, swapping out the synth sleeves with our actual bodies -- or as close to it as I could come at this point for my own, anyhow. It took another forty minutes from there to get to our destination; the quarters of Ambassador Kosh.

We didn't even get to actually ring the door to request entry before Lyta Alexander, the only living human to actually witness a Vorlon world, opened the door. She hadn't bothered to hide the existence of her methane-breather gills. At least they were less painful than a Younger Race implant would have been. "He isn't receiving visitors."

I quirked an eyebrow. "What's that saying? It's too late for the pebbles to vote?"

She turned away and looked back at the encounter suit. I got the sense of their telepathic communication but waited for her to speak aloud for politenesses' sake. "By all means, then." She stepped away from the door with a sweeping gesture, obviously entirely uncomfortable with what was happening.

I let a faint smile cross over my lips as my entourage and I made our way into the Vorlon's quarters. That smile remained but turned slightly more sour as I looked towards Kosh, focusing my parapsionic presence in a manner that to a psychic being is quite similar to making eye contact with someone. "I don't make it a habit to repeat my offers, Naraniek. But for you, given the stakes, I'm willing."

The only other human -- if either of us actually still qualified -- in the room had a more confused expression at my words than anything. She obviously must not have been told.

Kosh's inner song was in a quiet sort of turmoil for a while. "The tacet is as much a portion of the song as the crescendo. The instrument must play its part if the orchestra is to create beauty in the dark."

I thought for a moment in response. It was Danvers, however, who spoke. "If you are concerned, Kosh, about what place you might have amongst us… know what we are." And with that, the Shade-chaplain ceased making the effort to remain a wholly physical being and instead revealed his half-Ascended state. Lyta's jaw dropped. Shaleson visibly restrained from sighing before joining Danvers in the process.

I just stood there between the two. "As you can see, Kosh, we have come further than you might think."

The former commercial telepath shook herself out of her reaction. "Are you… you're not human."

I shook my head, briefly discorporating with my Taelon meridians just to emphasize the point. "That is … a much more delicate and complicated question than it might otherwise seem. In so many ways that matter, I and my people have not sacrificed one inch of our humanity. In many others, we are not even remotely human. A matter of perspective, perhaps."

I turned back to Kosh. "I won't ask you again, Kosh."

He turned away. Again, that just barely ghosted dissonance in the 'song' of the collective energy being made itself felt before being translated to English. "Go. Your offer is welcome, but cannot be accepted."

I shook my head in regret. "I would have liked to have shown you our Wisdom."

I didn't bother waiting to leave his quarters before stepping sideways with my bodyguards back to my Heartroot. Shaleson didn't bother waiting for us to separate before throwing her two cents into the fire. "Well that was a productive meeting, your Holiness."

I didn't even bother glaring at her. "I can't say I was expecting otherwise. Bastard is several hundred thousands of years old. You get stuck in your ways."

Shaleson just gave a blank expression in response. It didn't take a mind-reader to see the skepticism she had with the notion that such a thing had much to do with one's actual age.

I looked over at Danvers. "Did you get any readings that the Vorlons or Shadows were screwing around with Dho-Na Curvature phenomena?"

Danvers shook his head. "Nothing I could pick up. Not that this would be definitive, of course, You Who Are Hidden."

I blinked. That was a new one. Made sense, given how the Censor 'named' me, but still. I shook my head. "Well, as long as the station itself isn't exposed to any eldritch contamination then we shouldn't have to worry about narrative causality there despite how openly we've been moving. The rest … is on them."

Danvers merely bowed his head slightly. "It is as you say, Holiness."

I sat down to think for a while. Without even a fragment of Kosh, many of my hoped plans for the future wouldn't get to pan out. This would require some serious rethinking. Still; it wasn't like I could just amputate a limb and run off slapstick with it into the night; if the being wanted to die for his cause, well, that was literally his hill to die on and I had to respect that. Like it was another story, but I at least had to respect it.



I found myself, a few days later, back in the cradle of my people's civilization, refocusing on the training regimens that my people had developed over time. While I had other Avatars to handle the bulk of the training methods, I found that there was something calming or mentally stabilizing about invoking the soul-cultivation art of The Glow from the Last Dragon 'Verse. Going through the forms of the arts, as modified to include biotic techniques and parapsionic talents, was coming more and more readily to me -- though I knew better than to try to force it.

Today, I was sparring with Shaleson and Danvers both at once, in the depths of space roughly a lightyear out from Sol. Though I myself had not taken the true plunge to becoming a half-Ascended, even in my Avatar state, the sheer volume and strength of my soul -- thanks to the Red Sign -- had left me with functionally the same 'tier' of existence as they; shifting to a discorporate state was perhaps even easier for me than it was for them. The sparring we were engaging in was one that borrowed heavily on biotic charge FTL maneuvering, parapsionic teleportation, and blasts of photon-ray cannon charged energies with full banishment effectors all around; depending on our Wards and personal shielding methods from the various exotic technologies I'd acquired for my people to protect us.

The constant flashes of lights as we ran the gamut of the defined five light-second diameter of the 'sparring ring' -- a range only feasible thanks to the scanning and scrying techniques we all three had access to -- in my attempts to barrage the other two or trick them into striking one another, and their attempts to strike me in kind, all happening at speeds that were impossible for a vanilla human to even process, made a strobing effect on the sensor feeds and readouts for all three of us. Despite that, due to the distances involved, the actual mark-one eyeball really got almost nothing to see; and thanks to the sheer processing speeds at which our minds could actually operate at, the whole endeavor was if anything actually quite calm and relaxing. I was able to treat the whole thing almost as a form of kata rather than the live-fire exorcise that it really was.

A burst of light here, a parapsionic and Glow-reinforced grasping of an 8th-Ray reinforced beam of intensely charged light there with the physics-defying result of it being bent towards another combatant; a kaleidoscope of bursts of Cherenkov-blue bursts from eezo-backed dark energy manipulation there, a purple-black but somehow brightly visible corona of a sloppy teleport over there … and of course the randomized obstacles added by the observer drones to make the whole process more interesting for all involved; they added up to a sort of pyrotechnical display; one that would never be seen outside of the radius of the 'ring' thanks to the cloaking and concealment precautions my bodyguards had ironically insisted on … that were based on my own protocols in the matter.

So of course it was in the midst of this process as I dodged yet another round of white-yellow beams of barely contained energy while I wasn't even focusing exactly what I was doing but rather simply doing it -- as that was how all martial arts cliches happened -- that I finally felt the 'click' of the cultivation technique of The Glow finally fall into place, and 'achieved enlightenment'. A fact that was eminently revealed to my pair of bodyguards by the glowing crest of the Red Sign upon my forehead.

I raised my hand up and pinged the other two to indicate a break in the spar. Despite the vacuum, I managed to mutter to myself thanks to the sheer abusrdity of the collective violations of conventional physics I was operating under, and in a flash of red lightning manifested a mirror with which to examine myself. And sure enough, there the eye-distracting pattern that could not quite be made out was, somehow simultaneously blatantly obvious and yet hidden beneath my skin. "I had better not have just become a gorram Exalted."

If some asshole had plugged me into that particular 'Verse I was just going to pack my shit up and go home.

I knew the odds were that it was just memetic overlay from narrative similarity -- martial arts memes were gonna martial arts, after all -- but still. That barrel of joy I did not need. I was both too young and pretty to endure such things and too old for that shit.



A/N: Just to be painfully clear -- no, I'm not adding Exalted to this story. The MC knows the setting and is finding the overlap ominous, but that's as far as it goes. So please consider that theory shot in the gluteus maximus and left to die on the roadside with total indignity.

<Author-san> "Don't worry, Mark. You *definitely* shouldnot read into the fact that you just had a martial arts sparring match *in space* which you ended because your *soul* started to radiate a weird mark on your *forehead*."
<Andes> "What the actual shit, Author-san?! Why you gotta play me like this?"
<Author-san> [IRONIC LAUGHTER INTENSIFIES]
 
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shame that kosh choice to die can understand why with him being so old and seeing so much death in the younger races being laden with guild perhaps also ?
good to see there is progress on project here be dragon cant go wrong with those ^^
 
shame that kosh choice to die can understand why with him being so old and seeing so much death in the younger races being laden with guild perhaps also ?
good to see there is progress on project here be dragon cant go wrong with those ^^
Nothing ever went wrong by allowing mad scientists to add lots of black spikes to already evil organisms. Nothing.

Also, it's hard to impossible to write a Vorlon's dialogue and have it clearly say a damned thing. Kosh was choosing to die because "that was how it was Written". It was his "destined part to play". He may be more flexible and a whole lot less of a douchecanoe than your average Vorlon, but he's still a Vorlon. That's just how they are wired. It didn't have anything to do with how much death he's seen.
 
Nothing ever went wrong by allowing mad scientists to add lots of black spikes to already evil organisms. Nothing.

You know by purposely allowing this your increasing the chances of them winding up as a parody *villain* right? Purposely add enough spikes and edges and the empire might wind up as something like the Disgaea demons.

Meme worthy 4th wall breakers who's only claim to *evil* can be summed up as "maximum bully". Might want to cut back on it before it reaches that point..
 
You know by purposely allowing this your increasing the chances of them winding up as a parody *villain* right? Purposely add enough spikes and edges and the empire might wind up as something like the Disgaea demons.

Meme worthy 4th wall breakers who's only claim to *evil* can be summed up as "maximum bully". Might want to cut back on it before it reaches that point..
I'm sure it's just a phase and they'll grow out of it. We all have a goth/emo period in our development. It'll be fiiiine.
 
Kosh-kun uses Stoic Acceptance.
It is Super Effective!
<some time later>
Kosh-kun has Fainted.


Andes-kakka: "Shame... Such a damn shame."
Ahem. That's Andes-heika-ue to you.

You gotta give Kosh points for not being a hypocrite about it, though. "The avalanche has already started; it is too late for the pebbles to vote" indeed.
 
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You gotta give Kosh points for not being a hypocrite about it, though. "The avalanche has already started; it is too late for the pebbles to vote" indeed.

It's pretty clear that Kosh knows what he's doing, and possibly even regrets it, but he's going to do it anyways.

Although, I'm curious about one thing - If Mark feels that he really needs Kosh around for something, why doesn't he kidnap the Vorlon at the conclusion of his "act"? Hell, Mark could even fake up a "body" without too much effort...
 
It's pretty clear that Kosh knows what he's doing, and possibly even regrets it, but he's going to do it anyways.

Although, I'm curious about one thing - If Mark feels that he really needs Kosh around for something, why doesn't he kidnap the Vorlon at the conclusion of his "act"? Hell, Mark could even fake up a "body" without too much effort...
Respecting the dignity and self determination of others, really.

And besides; to pull that off would require fooling the Shadows, and Andes isn't at all confident he even understands their array of senses, let alone their ability to process information. Beyond which -- it's less a "I have to have your help" and more a "this will be so much more difficult without your help".
 
Respecting the dignity and self determination of others, really.

And besides; to pull that off would require fooling the Shadows, and Andes isn't at all confident he even understands their array of senses, let alone their ability to process information. Beyond which -- it's less a "I have to have your help" and more a "this will be so much more difficult without your help".
I don't understand why Kosh insists on dying. In the show, the only reason he died was because Sheridan made him act, not because of some master plan he had.
 
I don't understand why Kosh insists on dying. In the show, the only reason he died was because Sheridan made him act, not because of some master plan he had.
The show doesn't quite spell everything out for the viewer. However, the Vorlons are aware of the B4 timeloop, and of the future information that comes along with the experiences Sheridan has from being unstuck in time. Kosh in particular is closer to the loop than others; and being informed of his imminent death by Andes made Kosh look deeper into the information available about what the future holds for the galaxy.

So now Kosh knows that he is going to die soon, thanks to being told so by Andes previously, and what role his death will play in the evolution of the galaxy. As a result of being one of the very few Vorlons still truly committed to the cause of uplifting the Younger Races, (and having been willing to sacrifice himself twice in canon), Kosh made the choice he was always going to make in order to fulfill the cause he has been working towards for longer than the human species has existed.
 
The show doesn't quite spell everything out for the viewer. However, the Vorlons are aware of the B4 timeloop, and of the future information that comes along with the experiences Sheridan has from being unstuck in time. Kosh in particular is closer to the loop than others; and being informed of his imminent death by Andes made Kosh look deeper into the information available about what the future holds for the galaxy.

So now Kosh knows that he is going to die soon, thanks to being told so by Andes previously, and what role his death will play in the evolution of the galaxy. As a result of being one of the very few Vorlons still truly committed to the cause of uplifting the Younger Races, (and having been willing to sacrifice himself twice in canon), Kosh made the choice he was always going to make in order to fulfill the cause he has been working towards for longer than the human species has existed.
I thought Kosh's death was after B4 was sent back, and was thus outside the loop?

Kosh's death really didn't do anything to help the younger races out. All it did was reveal that the Vorlons were just as big a bag of dicks as the Shadows, which he could have done in many other ways.
 
As an Igtheist I cannot help but find myself disagreeing with some of the concepts here.

Most notably the one that inexplicable and mysterious powers define one as a 'God'.

First things first, there is more than one accepted definition of godhood, and they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

However, at least within monotheism I've always followed the notion that if god is neither all knowing or all powerful why call him God?

The claims of omnipotence and omniscience are rather recent, to my knowledge being preceded by the simple description of almighty and beyond comprehension which spiralled into infinity.

Then there is the much more limited 'gods' of polytheism. Which tend to have differences between pantheons, but are at least all considered immortal and of power beyond any normal mortal. Though there is some caveat to this. There is an instance of Ares the god of war being defeated by a hero. There is also the time when Zeus punished Poseidon and Apollo by stripping them of their divine power and having them build the walls of Troy.

Even beyond that, gods in polytheistic religion tend to vary in power, and are usually lead by the most powerful or oldest.
However some religions blur the lime between God and mortal further. The Egyptians worshipped their Pharaohs as gods. The Japanese did consider their Emperor as being of divine blood, though surprisingly they do not make a distinction between their 'Kami' and spirits. Which does bring up an important question, at what point is a being considered a god?

For me the descriptions of immortal, divine, transcendent in and of themselves are no issue. Something of nature could certainly come about in a macrocosm of an infinite universe with the right variation of the laws of physics.

However I do not believe that an omnipotent being, nor an omniscient bring can actually exist. Perhaps one could be described as such within the limits of a single macrocosm or 'verse'. However while there can be infinities of varying size, there can only be one with all power, and by definition it has all power. There are enough paradoxes with the context of omnipotence that it might as well be meaningless.

Thus, as far as I can tell there is no true difference between a sufficiently advanced Clarketech civilisation, and divines of a polytheistic pantheon. At least from the perspective of a 'mortal'. Both are powerful and to be respected as such, by neither can defined as the God monotheistic religions worship. The issue here seems to be one of language. Polytheistic gods are closer to divine spirits or immortal energy beings than omnipotent creators. To call beings of measurable power or knowledge god is simply a mistake.
 
I thought Kosh's death was after B4 was sent back, and was thus outside the loop?

Kosh's death really didn't do anything to help the younger races out. All it did was reveal that the Vorlons were just as big a bag of dicks as the Shadows, which he could have done in many other ways.

The loop contains information about events that happened after B4 was sent back in time thanks to Sheridan getting unstuck in time and winding up decades in the future being a part of the process of B4 being sent backwards. So, while partial, Kosh had the ability to pull information about future events from the Vorlons' record of the Great Circle (the timeloop).

As an Igtheist I cannot help but find myself disagreeing with some of the concepts here.

Most notably the one that inexplicable and mysterious powers define one as a 'God'.

First things first, there is more than one accepted definition of godhood, and they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
The type of god Andes is in the process of becoming is Lovecraftian/eldritch. They possess their powers from a fairly well defined nature of accumulating a sufficient density and quantity of "soulstuff"/"information", as seen in The Laundry Files. The eldritch gods of that setting have an eternal hunger for the souls of mortals and have powers that can drive anyone who barters with those beings to tap into a fraction therein insane. Right now, Andes is somewhere between the Eater of Souls (AKA the Teapot) and Nyarlothotep (AKA the Black Pharoah AKA The Mandate) in terms of potency as an eldritch being. He's also found a way, thanks to other canonical settings, to gain and feed that power without requiring the sacrifice of sapient beings.

At no time have I used any "inexplicable and mysterious powers"; everything in this story is drawn from some other setting, or is an extension of those caused by the merger of the two (such as the Philosopher's Stones of Fullmetal Alchemist and the soul-energy of The Laundry Files being interchangeable).

The Red Sign itself is an eldritch ritual that is slowly grown by adding drops of Philosopher's Stone to it, and then is integrated into a Destiny Entangled copy stored within Andes' inner soulspace. This increases his metaphysical mass at an artificially inflated rate, and is being done by the Jovians in order to turn him into an eldritch god on the theory that it takes a god to fight a god.

You're right that there are lots of definitions of what a god might be, but there's also a lot of overlap in many of those definitions -- especially in fictional settings, which is a core element of this story: all fiction is real "somewhere".

The Jovians are using Andes as a constructed/artificial god because they know that he obtained/created them in the first place to gain enough power to protect himself from the heavy hitters of the multiverse, and have basically made this into a bargain to gain his protection from those same heavy hitters in turn.

There's going to be more types of gods appearing in this narrative; and some of them, Andes is going to acquire traits of in order to further expand his own status as a "heavy hitter". For example; right now he doesn't actually get empowered by prayer. The only example of such a thing happening he has access to is the Ori, currently, and he's not prepared to garner their attention even with the entirety of the Shades backing him up.

As to absolute omniversal omnipotence ... the closest I've come to that in this story is The Censor, and it only has that power and knowledge in a very specific set of circumstances. A set that precludes its ever having a proactive role in this story. The Censor is poorly explained in story so far, but that's not the same as being inexplicable. It's a function of the multiverse, more than an actual being. Andes' failure to die when he slipped through the cracks between realities gave it enough existence to take on awareness, but normally it just... Isn't. It's weird and hard to explain, but The Censor is best understood as the personification of the concept of endings; or as the inverse principal of Authorship. Which itself is necessary for the idea that all fiction is real.

As may not have been fully made apparent; there's more than one Author in the cosmology of LAMIB. There's even meta-authors who exist to settle disputes between Authors, called Auditors. I've left their exact abilities and functions even more nebulous than that of The Censor.

Pretty much every "god" concept you'll see in this narrative will be limited to a single or limited set of Canons by the by, unless they are expressly depicted as extradimensional or eldritch in nature.

Don't think about it too much from there with regards to actual holy texts in the real world and their role in this story. That's a can of worms I ain't interested in opening up.
 
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How does the power of prayer compare to the Philosopher Stone method?
Apples and oranges, really. The Ori method of drawing energy from the prayers of their faithful is less well spelled out, but probably works on a form of life or psychic energy rather than soulstuff. This energy is accumulated, apparently, at the Ori's Celestial City and is attended to by the Doci. The Ori themselves reside within this "eternal flame" as seen in the Stargate episode titled "Origin".

What we know about that energy is that it is accumulated from the intense prayer of all humans in the Ori galaxy as they pray, and that these prayers somehow require that intensity to be fully effective in transferring that energy. And that it's been going on for tens if not hundreds of thousands of years.

The prayers and faith don't seem to actually harm the faithful besides the intensity of the prayer, and what exactly the energy that's transferred is, is hard to say.

My personal take is that it's likely somewhere in the psychic energy spectrum, perhaps like some vital "living psychic core" that minds have simply by existing. That vitality is what we see burning at the Celestial City.

As to methodologies, no individual person would be able to transfer even a microthaum of energy (or its non-thaumic equivalent) annually this way. At least, not a baseline human. I'd imagine an actual psychically advanced person would have more weight to them, especially if they are reinforced in some way such as by the soul-cultivation of The Glow.

The difference, however, is that the process is dramatically safer and could be performed by dramatically more people.

Right now, in the Jovian League there are perhaps 1.5 Trillion sapient people. Of them, about 8 billion are Seekers who perform the philosopher's stone sacrifices using their bonded familiars every month as the sacrifice. That's 0.5% of the total population of the League.

By contrast, nearly 100% would (and do) worship Andes in a non-eldritch way... and then there's also the population of actual human worshippers Andes has accumulated but not been really informed of amongst the communities of the Coalition of Allied Earths (and to a smaller extent the Free Earths Republics). The CAE and FER now total about seven trillion people, of Andes' status as the Holy Emperor of the Jovian League has probably gotten him included in some way amongst the pantheons or list of Saints for a solid six hundred billion or so. More amongst the CAE than the FER. Often this inclusion is sort of seen as political more than anything else; a polite gesture to the League who continues to act as their patron civilization and who helped save them from the horrors of Kromagg Occupation. This isn't really relevant to the story yet because those numbers are purely cosmetic so far... but they wouldn't necessarily stay that way if those worshippers started receiving the Mark of the Sign from Seekers and Andes had a way to actually receive the energy of those prayers.

So it's a tossup. It's different enough that it would be difficult to accurately compare. Excepting that the philosopher's stone method is dramatically more dangerous and traumatic, and requires intense training and oversight. (Such as the Magos Police with their warding equipment and parapsionic training, and their constant Commisar-like scrutiny for signs of corruption in any individual Seeker.)
 
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All this talk of gods has me curious is percy jackson within his range?

I very much doubt it. If Harry Potter isn't, Percy Jackson shouldn't either. The two settings are similarly soft in a mechanical sense.

For a more deterministic magic system, the Cosmere of Brandon Sanderson could be an option. Sanderson loves his complex but hard magic systems so basically his entire multiverse works with them - all magic comes from different shards of a presumably primordial entity and have landed in different worlds.

In Mistborn, for example, we have two Shards: Preservation, which produced the magic of Allomancy where you consume different metals to give you abilities, and Ruin, which generated the magic of Hemalurgy which allows you to steal attributes and concepts of other beings.

The mechanics are very internally consistent, and some of them (like Feruchemy, the ability to store conceptual attributes like speed, health or youth) don't seem beholden to any external power (unlike the other two above).
 
@Zysek , @chance -- Yeah, Harry Potter and Percy Jackson are both out of range. Though I will note that it's not just the deterministic nature of the magic that makes that rule; in short it's a question of the total "weirdness" of the setting, especially that setting's Earth (or Earth equivalent). So Mistborn would be out because of how different that world is at pretty much every level, and how much magic there is in general. Though the explicability of the system does help, the fact that the world it happens in is so distinct works against it.

@BoltzmannBrain -- the reason why the Seeker's rituals work across dimensions is because their rituals create a physical object that can then be transferred to the physical manifestation of the Red Sign and added to it. They're literally tithing drops of liquid-form philosopher's stone every month. That being said, they have also created another set of rituals that are meant to 'embody' the Red Sign -- the metaphysical 'nature' or 'existence' of Andes' "divinity" (inasmuch as a lovecraftian god has any such thing) -- as a transdimensional object, by permanently tying together locations around the orbit of the relevant dimension's Jupiter in a manner to create multiple 3-dimensional representations of the Sign, which are then also tethered by what amounts to nanoscale tears in spacetime that tie the regions to one another across dimensions. The whole point of which being to make a massive wide-area spatial eldritch ward that draws directly from the Sign to empower itself, thus further protecting the Jovians from extradimensional gribblies and other Things Not Meant To Be; and of course the mere existence of the ward-sign instance of the Red Sign, and it being tied to the physical instance, and that also being tied to Andes himself, is why the Jovians can now also do things like imbue the Mark of the Red Sign, which is a bit like a footprint or impression left by the thing; the sheer scale of the Sign by now, both in terms of soul-mass and spatial existence and various energies fed into it, has left it with enough metaphysical mass that merely an echo or afterimage of it also has power. While that's not much, those invocations are kind of like using a gravitational slingshot effect rather than expending the mass itself; and as such they do not reduce the total mass when they are used. Needless to say, the Mark only works in dimensions that have been "opened up" to the Jovian League.
 
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