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Jessica Jones

I also think it was a mistake to kill off Kilgrave. He was such a good villain that it seems a waste to end any chance of new stories with him.
 
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Question, do I get to see Tennant get punched directly in the face, and if so, how long do I have to watch before it happens?
 
VolantRedX said:
I also think it was a mistake to kill off Kilgrave. He was such a good villain that it seems a wast ed to end any chance of new stories with him.
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There's really nothing else you can do with him. You can't contain him forever easily, he's as manipulative as Hannibal Lecter even when you cut his powers out of the equation, and if he escapes, that just extends Jessica's suffering, since he's not likely to ditch his infatuation with her.
 
Insufficient Dakka said:
Question, do I get to see Tennant get punched directly in the face, and if so, how long do I have to watch before it happens?
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Episode 9.
GA_Reese said:
You can't contain him forever easily, he's as manipulative as Hannibal Lecter even when you cut his powers out of the equation
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Eer, based on what? He seemed to lean on his powers hard for everything (even his interactions with Jessica were heavily conditioned on the fact that he had controlled victims-in-waiting to check her moves), and while there were some moments of Magnificent Bastardry (specifically his Luke Cage manuever) that was mostly an example of him applying his powers well, not him being naturally manipulative. The closest example is maybe his caged interaction with Hogarth, but that feels like easy mode seeing as she was already convincing herself to 'use' him. If he got depowered he'd be pretty pathetic (so I'm clear, I like that).

The main problem with keeping him alive would be the fact that this season focused solely on him and was running on fumes by the end. I figure they wrote him out for good knowing there was nothing further to wring out of him.
firefossil said:
Are you secretly that hypothetical consultant that keeps telling every entertainment media company to dumb everything down to the LCD? That the audience is confused and frustrated by moral or plot complexity and thus everything must be kept to the simple watered down wham biff kapow?
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I'm admittedly a somewhat casual/intermittent forum member, but isn't he the guy who self-admits as not seeing the benefit of complicated villains/anti-heroes/shades of gray?
 
GA_Reese said:
There's really nothing else you can do with him. You can't contain him forever easily, he's as manipulative as Hannibal Lecter even when you cut his powers out of the equation, and if he escapes, that just extends Jessica's suffering, since he's not likely to ditch his infatuation with her.
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Of course he'd get out. It'd be boring if the villain was in prison forever. He'd get out and have more plots and stuff. He just seems too interesting to write out of the show forever.

firefossil said:
Are you secretly that hypothetical consultant that keeps telling every entertainment media company to dumb everything down to the LCD? That the audience is confused and frustrated by moral or plot complexity and thus everything must be kept to the simple watered down wham biff kapow?
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You can have a ton of complexity while still making it clear who the good guy and bad guy are. Like I don't have an issue with Jessica being a morally compromised anti-hero, I just have an issue with characters that switch sides every episode. It makes it hard to know how to feel about them.

Side Item said:
I'm admittedly a somewhat casual/intermittent forum member, but isn't he the guy who self-admits as not seeing the benefit of complicated villains/anti-heroes/shades of gray?
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It's not that I don't see some benefit, it's that I don't think that it is better than having well established good guys and bad guys who are clear in their role and the story knows that. Like I love that Kilgrave isn't the least bit sympathetic or relatable.
 
JJ 1 Thoughts
  • Love the opening - very cool water color stylization and love the slow jazzy music into a faster beat
  • Phone charging - good to see charging actually being done in a show ... also, that JJ suffers the same fate as the rest of us, outlet device not plugged into the wall
  • Visual foreshadowing or characterization - Alias glass pane replaced by cardboard - opaque and weaker, also "fragile, handle with care" - that can't be an accident
    • Client thrown through the original glass pane - foreshadowing client coming up that's going to break her normal detective work leading to JJ being in a fragile state
  • Client dad being a dad and trying to fix the door - cute, very dad-ish behavior; displacing his worry over daughter Hope to doing something tangible for another young lady in the city i.e. he can't 'fix' (find) Hope but he can presumably (attempt to) fix a door
    • JJ gives him glue - point = she tries to respond but her response isn't correct / enough to bridge the gap, make the connection
    • Subtle characterization already: despite what Jessica says, she can't help but reach out to people even if her attempt isn't enough
  • Superpower - Jessica 'fuck locks and doors' Jones
  • Jeri and JJ "I'm not going to beg. I am going to ask very strongly." - Jeri's intrigued reaction
    • Jeri - gets off on power imbalances, not surprising given her description / job (shark, partner), probably can't resist considering the possibility of breaking someone as feisty / defensive as JJ, strong believer in effectiveness regardless of the means
      • At least as of now, Jeri's relationship with JJ encourages JJ's recklessness / callousness
    • JJ - characterization: already rejected Jeri's retainer offer / prefers her independence - trust issues, does not want to depend on one person for her living
      • Given this someone is Jeri, this is probably a smart idea
      • More foreshadowing
  • Bathroom Conning - hilarious - use of social media + different voice
    • Nice range by the actress
  • Stopping a Slow Moving Car - indicative that there's a fairly popular / vocal undercurrent of prejudice against supers (fear, suspicion)
    • I think the Avengers are ... not really well known as Avenger individuals - by which I mean, people generally know some of the more noticeable ones are part of this group that just shows up when something big and terrible is happening with lots of collateral damage
    • Pretty clear the Avengers don't do any PR events and smaller scale rescues to get their name and mission statement out - Stark aside, the general public probably wouldn't recognize Avengers out of costume
      • Unsurprising - no interest to be in public, were linked with SHIELD (secret organization) so stayed out of limelight, might not be on planet
      • AND STARK IS CONTROVERSIAL - things tend to explode around him
    • PROBLEM: You do PR and smaller events so that when a bigger event comes, the public has these smaller, clearly heroic events linked in their mind to your group. It's dumb but if you only show up for big, terrible events, your group is indelibly linked to big, terrible events where lots of people die and people are searching for someone to blame (i.e. you). If they had done PR, people can point that you're not just a harbinger (if not cause) of mass destruction.
      • Definitely didn't help that: SHIELD linkage = nazis + mass destruction; Stark (public face of Avengers) creates Ultron
      • Will not help that: even the 'good' All-American flag-waver is going to defy the government for someone that the public is only going to know as a 'commie assassin'
  • Luke - he's got the look down and calm stoicism but he's a bit of a cipher - no doubt this will be expanded upon in his own show
    • Pro: He doesn't overshadow JJ, which is pretty important given that this is JJ's story and (reluctant) hero arc
    • Con: I'm not feeling the chemistry and given what I know (up to watching ep. 4), I can't see this relationship lasting whatever the comics say - more on this in another ep. thoughts
    • Funny: He's pretty and shallow as a character - he is the eye candy of this show! It's noir (gender-flipped) tropes all the way down
  • Sex Scene 1 - passable / realistic 'lust' version, not sexy probably because this is JJ fucking up
    • Doggie style - JJ cannot bear to see Luke's face at the climax; this is JJ punishing herself and demonstrating her self-loathing
  • Medicine Cabinet / Stalking
    • Once a PI, always a PI? - most people don't check medicine cabinets
    • Reva photograph / look in the mirror - yo, this is creepy, unhealthy, and fraudulent, JJ
  • PTSD flashbacks - fantastic use of sound and visuals - well-done!
  • Trish's mishmash accent slipping out - quite noticeable in some of her lines, not really distracting, just funny
  • Coded visuals - not surprised people who only saw the first episode thought JJ would be queer / Trish was JJ's ex-GF
    • Good chemistry between the two
    • Strangely, the show used a lot of shorthand visuals that are usually used for romantic relationships
      • Being haunted by Trish's face (see: turning away from bus ad at the start of the show) - note this is the first relationship shown! - indicative of primary relationship in series: JJ/Trish
      • "Hope is being conned or in love" - while standing next to a bus stop with a giant poster of Trish's face
      • Balcony - long history of superheroes showing up on their (romantic) love's balcony / window for talks
        • Hilarious - instead of JJ landing in a collected, powerful way on the balcony, JJ keeps having to struggle / crawl over the balcony fence - is this supposed to reference JJ's street level power, that she / her life is not together / a mess, some furtiveness / shame re: Trish relationship, or is it just funny and they kept it
    • I don't think it's really possible to do this accidentally but not sure on why they decided to do it this way - reclaiming visuals for love in general (as opposed to solely romantic?)
      • Possibilities: bait and switch, platonic love is as important as romantic, keeping the option open
  • "I am not the hero you wanted me to be"
    • Trish is the one that suggested Jess is better able to handle Kilgrave than a kid from Omaha
    • She's the one who
      • Articulates the ideal of what Jess can be - Jess pushes her away to keep her safe and because she felt she couldn't meet that ideal after Kilgrave
      • Is the catalysis for Jess ending up going down the hero path / starting to face her fears because of Trish's faith in her
    • Is Trish the heart of this show?
  • Hope - this is not a subtle name, show
 
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Athene said:
@DissMech and I suggested a drinking game for a marathon: Every time Jessica breaks a lock, take a drink.
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Someone on Reddit made one just based on the trailers and their knowledge of the comics, and it's pretty accurate:

Take a sip any time:
  • Jessica attempts to fly
  • Jessica drinks whiskey
  • Jessica says "whiskey"
  • Glass is broken (windows, cups, etc)
  • Jessica bluffs the extent of her powers
  • Jessica listens to music in her car
  • A flashback happens
  • The Battle of New York is mentioned
  • Someone says "this city" or "my city"
  • A character (supporting or otherwise) from Daredevil shows up
  • Purple Man controls a new person
  • Malcolm is inside the Alias offices uninvited
  • Jeri Hogarth gives advice or information to Jessica
  • Trish or Malcolm almost die
  • Someone lies to Jessica/she lies to someone
  • Luke Cage wears a yellow shirt
Take two sips if one of these is mentioned/appears:
  • A character from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.
  • A character from the movies
  • The Rand Corporation
  • Nelson & Murdock, Avocados at Law
Finish your drink if:
  • Luke Cage says "Sweet Christmas!"
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VolantRedX said:
I just like to know whether a character is someone I should be rooting for or not.
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You should avoid reading Crime & Punishment, it's kryptonite to your brain that will make it positively explode... :V

Or you'll just go "Raskolnikov is a Bad Guy(tm), what's the deal with this book?? He should wear a black Stetson!!" :(
 
Omicron said:
6:10 AM<•Omicron> ...
6:10 AM<•Omicron> I just realized something hilarious.
6:10 AM<•Omicron> This is likely over-reading into it, in no small part because the character of Nuke and his superpower-drugs is decades old.
6:11 AM<•Omicron> But in Jessica Jones, a show dealing heavily with themes of abuse at the hands of powerful men and female empowerment,
6:12 AM<•Omicron> One character who was formerly an ally turns psycho and acquires "evil" superpowers (they empower him but they ultimately take away his agency by turning him psychotic) and assaults the two female leads while accusing them of being with "the system"
6:12 AM<•Omicron> by taking a red pill.
6:12 AM<•Omicron> A literal red pill (that is a superpower drug).
6:12 AM<•Omicron> This is amazing.
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I'm reading this thread backwards from my first post, so I only just came across this, but... ugh, come on.

Nuke, as you've noted, is decades old, as a character. He predates the Matrix, let alone the use of the term "red pill" as an MRA thing.

Nuke was originally a Daredevil villain, a supersoldier hired by the Kingpin because he was so totally washed-up and out of it that Wilson Fisk could just drape his office in American memorabilia and convince him that Daredevil was a pinko anarchist spy who needed taking out. His origins are in Vietnam - he's a character about abuse, which is what makes him perfect for this show.

The obvious message - drug abuse, abuse of the self, both famously associated with Vietnam vets - is a metaphor for the greater one. Nuke is a character who has been abused by the system. He is a man abused by his government, physically and mentally exploited, then spat out by a culture so toxic that it expects him to thank his abuser for the patriotic privilege. He's a victim who's internalized this mindset in an effort to reclaim his agency and power - so strongly that he wears his abuser literally tattooed on his face. His drugs aren't "red pills". They're red, white and blue - Nuke's drug is America. He is trapped in a cycle of abuse with the system that is America - literally addicted to his abuser, because for reasons cultural and personal he can't admit he didn't want this, won't admit he's a victim.

Obviously he's not all the way there yet in the show, but still. Trying to read him as "lololol red pill" is grossly dismissive.
 
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Revlid said:
I'm reading this thread backwards from my first post, so I only just came across this, but... ugh, come on.

Nuke, as you've noted, is decades old, as a character. He predates the Matrix, let alone the transformation of that term into an MRA thing.

Nuke was originally a Daredevil villain, a supersoldier hired by the Kingpin because he was so totally washed-up and out of it that Wilson Fisk could just drape his office in American memorabilia and convince him that Daredevil was a pinko anarchist spy who needed taking out. His origins are in Vietnam - he's a character about abuse, which is what makes him perfect for this show.

The obvious message - drug abuse, abuse of the self, both famously associated with Vietnam vets - is a metaphor for the greater one. Nuke is a character who has been abused by the system. He is a man abused by his government, physically and mentally exploited, then spat out by a culture so toxic that it expects him to thank his abuser for the patriotic privilege. He's a victim who's internalized this mindset in an effort to reclaim his agency and power - so strongly that he wears his abuser literally tattooed on his face. His drugs aren't "red pills". They're red, white and blue - Nuke's drug is America. He is trapped in a cycle of abuse with the system that is America - literally addicted to his abuser, because for reasons cultural and personal he can't admit he didn't want this, won't admit he's a victim.

Obviously he's not all the way there yet in the show, but still. Trying to read him as "lololol red pill" is gross and dismissive.
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As I said, I don't even think it's intentional. I believe it's a coincidence; I also believe it's a coincidence that lends itself perfectly to that reading, which makes it amusing.

Which makes your post difficult to engage with; I think the character lends itself to my reading pretty well, but I also believe that's accidental, so I can't really counter-argue your points because, well, I'd be arguing for a reading that I don't believe is intentional in the text. And that's what crazy death of the author advocates do, and I'm not one.
 
VolantRedX said:
I've read a lot of romance novels from the Victorian era (Jane Austin, The Bronte sisters), but other than that I tend to stick to the modern era.
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Honestly hoss I think you're unnecessarily limiting the scope of all the lovely books you could feed to your brain. I mean even if you don't want to touch the 19th century, there's a whole 50 years of good stuff there that you've seemingly excluded for no gain.

May I ask why the cutoff, and why there specifically?

(I realise this is off topic but it's also far too interesting to ignore)

Edit: Also I'm up to episode 2 and I'm struggling. Is there any light in this tunnel or am I signing up to watch a bunch of people fall down a stair made of dicks ad nauseum?
 
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Claudette Savagely said:
May I ask why the cutoff, and why there specifically?
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Well I don't read much anyway, and I find most books written before the modern era to be really really dull. Like any 18th century book I've read I've never made it past the 100 page mark. As for the cutoff, well the two genres I really like Fantasy and Sci Fi got their starts around then. Most books before than are just about boring people being boring.

Claudette Savagely said:
Edit: Also I'm up to episode 2 and I'm struggling. Is there any light in this tunnel or am I signing up to watch a bunch of people fall down a stair made of dicks ad nauseum?
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Dr Who gets punched in the face at one point. That was very satisfying to me personally.
 
VolantRedX said:
Well I don't read much anyway, and I find most books written before the modern era to be really really dull. Like any 18th century book I've read I've never made it past the 100 page mark. As for the cutoff, well the two genres I really like Fantasy and Sci Fi got their starts around then. Most books before than are just about boring people being boring.
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On the specific point of sci fi/fantasy, there's a whole mess of genuinely good stuff that came out prior to 1950. Verne, Burroughs, Dunsany, Shelley: people who are worth reading even if you don't like reading all that much did some really cool things in that half a century, and I reckon you could find something there to really get your teeth into.
 
Jace911 said:
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What?

Claudette Savagely said:
On the specific point of sci fi/fantasy, there's a whole mess of genuinely good stuff that came out prior to 1950. Verne, Burroughs, Dunsany, Shelley: people who are worth reading even if you don't like reading all that much did some really cool things in that half a century, and I reckon you could find something there to really get your teeth into.
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Eh, I've tried reading Frankenstein, it sucked. I tried reading Princess of Mars, movie was better.
 
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