Itinerant: A Pilgrim Quest
- Location
- St. Petersburg
[X] "Yes."
Curiously, the 'beast' avoids naming the conclusion out loud. He is way more courteous than the abbot made him sound. And he has a name, too - Elver. How would they know of his name if killing is all he does?
A wicked desire that can never be satisfied, a monster appearing where injustice is strong to make men mend their ways, whose wrath can only be stayed by the will of the Saints that sent it. If there is even a grain of truth in what Eadald said, it makes me wonder what kind of sins the monks are guilty of.
What is it glad about?
Curiously, the 'beast' avoids naming the conclusion out loud. He is way more courteous than the abbot made him sound. And he has a name, too - Elver. How would they know of his name if killing is all he does?
A wicked desire that can never be satisfied, a monster appearing where injustice is strong to make men mend their ways, whose wrath can only be stayed by the will of the Saints that sent it. If there is even a grain of truth in what Eadald said, it makes me wonder what kind of sins the monks are guilty of.
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6.7 The Beast Speaks
Gargulec
impact!
- Location
- a garden
And here we go! It is, like, a monologue. Also, one day, we will find out if it is a fantasy quest. Or maybe a Kill Six Billion Demons fanfic? I mean, the entire universe is one, right? Who knows. It is a wild world. Or perhaps you are still in fever. I mean, who said it is a fantasy quest?
The beast remained out of sight, a hulking shadow ahead; but it seemed pleased with your decision to hear it out, and when it spoke again, its voice was glad and warm.
"Oh, it is… is idle curiosity. A question preceded by a story, that I have to tell – but there is no need to worry, the night is still far from over, and we will have our bloodshed in due time."
And the beast sat, its frame lurching down – and in the dark of the night, its shadow appeared to be of the shape of the great stone that the kin of Ulla the Hammer venerated, disregarding the decrees of the saintly faith.
"It is, I think, no big assumption to allow myself to think that you are like me; that is that your faith in the potency of the Saints is infallible, and that you would never doubt in their justice and goodness. Of course, it may surprise you that I, Elver Red-Tooth, the scourge on the faithful, would describe myself as pious, but in truth, I very ardent in my devotion. How could I be not, if I am their tool, the rod they wield against those who they have decided to punish?"
"A very wise man, in the blessed, early days of the Saintly Faith spoke of it as such: the Malefactors are nothing but the apes of the Saints. Repulsive and evil, standing against everything that the Saints deemed good, but in truth being servants to them. For how could evil be stronger than good, if good had not allowed it to be such? You may not be learned in the ways of theology, but I am sure that you had heard such disputes before. And if not, then I have equally little doubt that you will hear them many times, in your long journey ahead."
"Now, that you understand why I am both vile – there is no denying that I am a beast that despises the tribe of men, and suffers at the glare of the just sun – and very pious, you have to understand that while it does bring me great pleasure to torment and slay the monks you decided to protect, it is but for the will of the Saints that I had been allowed to become such a bane for them."
"And this brings me and you – and our fight, which is sure to follow – to the question that is rather difficult, but no less worthy of consideration for that. As you can see, I am an instrument of the Saint's wrath; I do not question why – my fate abides as the fate must. But what does it make of you?"
"There are, I think, three distinct possibilities, all of them interesting. One is that the Saints have decided that punishment inflicted on those monks is over, and you are now also an instrument of their will, standing with their blessing against a beast such as me, to defeat it, and hearten the faithful with knowledge that the Saints forgive and assist. That would certainly mean the doom of mine, which I have to accepted, for as said, I am faithful."
"But there is also another possibility, more favourable to me than the other, and that is that the Saints had not yet lifted their edict from the abbey, and that the sentence is still the same as it was before – that I am to be unleashed on them to the full extent of my hunger. Which would certainly mean your doom, for you are a wisp of a girl that can barely hold on to her weapons, and I have eaten warriors hundred times as strong and hundred times as brave."
"Yet, there is also a third chance, which makes black heart beast faster. What if you belong to neither the saintly, nor the mortal law, and rather, are here as an agent of some other power? I do not think that the will of the Saints had turned against me, but when I look at you, I see that you may be weak, but your journey will not end on this courtyard, no matter how our fight unfolds. And this, this makes me wonder: are you here to defy the Saints, and their will?"
It spoke no more, freezing like an idol of stone, and you understood that the discussion was finished, and after your response, the night would proceed to violence – in one form or another. Therefore, savouring the peace before being forced to let go, you hesitated with answering. However, you did not wait too long, and finally, declared to Elver…
[ ] "I am an instrument of the Saints, and your doom."
6.7 The Beast Speaks
The beast remained out of sight, a hulking shadow ahead; but it seemed pleased with your decision to hear it out, and when it spoke again, its voice was glad and warm.
"Oh, it is… is idle curiosity. A question preceded by a story, that I have to tell – but there is no need to worry, the night is still far from over, and we will have our bloodshed in due time."
And the beast sat, its frame lurching down – and in the dark of the night, its shadow appeared to be of the shape of the great stone that the kin of Ulla the Hammer venerated, disregarding the decrees of the saintly faith.
"It is, I think, no big assumption to allow myself to think that you are like me; that is that your faith in the potency of the Saints is infallible, and that you would never doubt in their justice and goodness. Of course, it may surprise you that I, Elver Red-Tooth, the scourge on the faithful, would describe myself as pious, but in truth, I very ardent in my devotion. How could I be not, if I am their tool, the rod they wield against those who they have decided to punish?"
"A very wise man, in the blessed, early days of the Saintly Faith spoke of it as such: the Malefactors are nothing but the apes of the Saints. Repulsive and evil, standing against everything that the Saints deemed good, but in truth being servants to them. For how could evil be stronger than good, if good had not allowed it to be such? You may not be learned in the ways of theology, but I am sure that you had heard such disputes before. And if not, then I have equally little doubt that you will hear them many times, in your long journey ahead."
"Now, that you understand why I am both vile – there is no denying that I am a beast that despises the tribe of men, and suffers at the glare of the just sun – and very pious, you have to understand that while it does bring me great pleasure to torment and slay the monks you decided to protect, it is but for the will of the Saints that I had been allowed to become such a bane for them."
"And this brings me and you – and our fight, which is sure to follow – to the question that is rather difficult, but no less worthy of consideration for that. As you can see, I am an instrument of the Saint's wrath; I do not question why – my fate abides as the fate must. But what does it make of you?"
"There are, I think, three distinct possibilities, all of them interesting. One is that the Saints have decided that punishment inflicted on those monks is over, and you are now also an instrument of their will, standing with their blessing against a beast such as me, to defeat it, and hearten the faithful with knowledge that the Saints forgive and assist. That would certainly mean the doom of mine, which I have to accepted, for as said, I am faithful."
"But there is also another possibility, more favourable to me than the other, and that is that the Saints had not yet lifted their edict from the abbey, and that the sentence is still the same as it was before – that I am to be unleashed on them to the full extent of my hunger. Which would certainly mean your doom, for you are a wisp of a girl that can barely hold on to her weapons, and I have eaten warriors hundred times as strong and hundred times as brave."
"Yet, there is also a third chance, which makes black heart beast faster. What if you belong to neither the saintly, nor the mortal law, and rather, are here as an agent of some other power? I do not think that the will of the Saints had turned against me, but when I look at you, I see that you may be weak, but your journey will not end on this courtyard, no matter how our fight unfolds. And this, this makes me wonder: are you here to defy the Saints, and their will?"
It spoke no more, freezing like an idol of stone, and you understood that the discussion was finished, and after your response, the night would proceed to violence – in one form or another. Therefore, savouring the peace before being forced to let go, you hesitated with answering. However, you did not wait too long, and finally, declared to Elver…
[ ] "I am an instrument of the Saints, and your doom."
[ ] …and that was a lie.
[ ] "I am here by chance, and mortal and unblessed."
[ ] …and that was a lie.
[ ] "I am here by some other power; I do not know its name, but I know its strength."
[ ] ...and that was a lie.
[ ] "Your sweet falsehoods fail to instill doubt in me. Begone, Malefactor."
[ ] …but you did not believe in that.
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- Location
- scrabbling
[X] "Your sweet falsehoods fail to instill doubt in me. Begone, Malefactor."
Elver is at best benefiting from felix culpa. Even then, goodness would not allow his rampage to last as long as he claims it has.
Elver is at best benefiting from felix culpa. Even then, goodness would not allow his rampage to last as long as he claims it has.
- Location
- United States
Oh man. Theological debates and trying not to blaspheme in our answer. This is going to take some thinking.
I really wish I could write in a response that's a combination of...pretty much all four answers, but I'm guessing that's not allowed. So I'm going to take a bit of time, and then make the best vote I can.
I really wish I could write in a response that's a combination of...pretty much all four answers, but I'm guessing that's not allowed. So I'm going to take a bit of time, and then make the best vote I can.
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Gargulec
impact!
- Location
- a garden
Now that is a very good question.
Scify
It always starts with a lighthouse.
Also, why do I feel like the name is important? It's a word for a young eel, but I feel like I've heard it as a name before for something...
Gargulec
impact!
- Location
- a garden
I don't usually shoot down speculation like that, but there is 0 significance to it; don't dig into it too hard.
- Location
- St. Petersburg
'pleased'
'may be', or 'surprise you'
a space is missing
If the Saints are indeed behind the punishment, then perhaps if we put up a fight even without their explicit blessing, they may be impressed/amused by our conviction that these people do not deserve their fate, and may be swayed to give them a second chance. Who's to say that they are so above us they can not be interacted with? They may overturn their judgement - Elmer himself admits the possibility - but why should mortals be reduced to mere tools carrying out their will?
We are here, mortal and unblessed. That much is true, or so our senses tell us. But we hope for them to see our side, and have them with us at the end. Of the options we have, this answer falls closest to the following:
[ ] "I am here by chance, and mortal and unblessed."
-[ ] …and that was a lie.
Because while it is the truth, we do not believe it is the whole truth. In fact, just an update before we were certain this was a test.
As for me, I view it as a tribulation. You see a wrong you can right at a perhaps dire cost, what do you do? Without looking at the Saints for guidance, approval and assurance, what do you, you personally, do when you are alone? What sort of character are you? The Saints may back you up, smack you down, or dismiss and ignore you, but that is not a part of our decision.
[X] "I know not the designs of the Saints. But I pray for them to grant me strength to do what I believe is right."
Is that a valid answer? It is no more of an evasion than the last option, at least.
Edit:
I did not notice this at first, but this is, in a way, the complete opposite of what Elmer believes:
The Saints may have uses for him, but his vileness is his own choice, and he is not exempt from answering for it.
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- Location
- Upon the back of the Great A'Tuin
It seems like violence between us and Elver is guaranteed but I believe we have a chance to shape the nature of that violence. Perhaps it would be best to set aside Rye-Stalk and let wisdom be our spear and knowledge, our shield. Instead of giving the beast the bloodshed that it desires let us give an argument as to why it's purpose here is fulfilled, and debate it's nature and ours. After all, it has given us plenty to think and debate about.
- Location
- United States
[X] "I know not the designs of the Saints. But I pray for them to grant me strength to do what I believe is right."
This is what I was aiming for, so I hope it's an OK vote.
The original options seem to be:
1. The Saints are all powerful and guide my path.
Which seems pretty self-righteous and arrogant to me.
2. I walk my own path, the Saints don't affect me.
Which I personally agree with but would be a strange view for our character
3. Yeah I got a strange vision when I almost died and now I'm abandoning the Saints for a weird Crow lady.
I really doubt we'd choose that.
4. Shut up and fight me, monster.
Pretty straightforward and tempting, to be honest. This guy would be annoying enough to debate with even if we didn't have to fight him afterwards.
But the write in strikes a good balance between "still faithful to the Saints" and "confused but hopeful we are doing the right thing", which I think is kind of the standard human condition.
This is what I was aiming for, so I hope it's an OK vote.
The original options seem to be:
1. The Saints are all powerful and guide my path.
Which seems pretty self-righteous and arrogant to me.
2. I walk my own path, the Saints don't affect me.
Which I personally agree with but would be a strange view for our character
3. Yeah I got a strange vision when I almost died and now I'm abandoning the Saints for a weird Crow lady.
I really doubt we'd choose that.
4. Shut up and fight me, monster.
Pretty straightforward and tempting, to be honest. This guy would be annoying enough to debate with even if we didn't have to fight him afterwards.
But the write in strikes a good balance between "still faithful to the Saints" and "confused but hopeful we are doing the right thing", which I think is kind of the standard human condition.
- Location
- St. Petersburg
While I love reading tales about redemption and atonement, I am not sure that this here is a particularly good case for them to be applicable. See, Elmer says that Saints are almighty, and even what people perceive as evil comes from them, and that by doing the Malefactors' bidding one carries out the Saints' will, for Malefactors too are their servants. So if he happens to be vile and take pleasure in maiming, killing and torture, this is all a part of a divine plan.
To tell him that his purpose here is fulfilled would be to recognize that he had a purpose in the first place, that everything he has done was decreed by the Saints, and thus can not be faulted for it. It is... not the view I care about.
What I think I am saying is that everyone follows their own desires according to their own will. We acknowledge the power of the Saints, but we can't say what is the role we have in their play, whether we are a hero to be admired, or a cautionary tale of a fool about to be smitten down. What we can do is give it our best to live in accordance to what we believe they stand for. Incidentally, that view would make Elmer not a divine scourge, in the sense he himself attributes to the word, but just another vile, arrogant creature who let power get to his head and confused impunity with the divine right. There would be no higher purpose to his existence, or at least, not in the way he thinks.
It makes a lot of sense, though. We realize that we stand no chance against the beast of his caliber. We know we would fall without some power or other backing us up on this, and yet we still challenge him. Why is that, are we suicidal? No, that's not it. Believing the Saints are with us would be logical rahter than arrogant, because if they aren't, and yet we have no fear... then who is it that we count on?
Even I hope that they are on our side.
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- Location
- Upon the back of the Great A'Tuin
I strongly disagree with your purposed idea that he can't be faulted for his actions if they were allowed by the Saints. Just because the Saints, in their power and wisdom can turn a foul deed into a just one does not excuse the actor who committed it. The Malefactors are no less evil and repulsive even if they are servants to the Saints. Elver thinks and feels and ultimately chooses to torment and slay the monks yet denies responsibility for his actions and tries to pass it off as the will of the Saints. The Saints may choose to use him as a rod of divine punishment, but he chooses to be that tool. It's like you say:
Except I would say that Elever can be used as a divine scourge (through the wise and powerful will of the Saints) while also being a vile and arrogant creature (through his own free will).
[X] "I know not the designs of the Saints. But I pray for them to grant me strength to do what I believe is right."
- Location
- St. Petersburg
That is the idea, yes. I think we are in an agreement more so than not.
It's the difference between a play as a scripted act, and an independent performance of individuals weaved into one coherent story. There is a play either way, but your part in it isn't predetermined - and perhaps, neither is the outcome of the story. Elmer thinks it has been a will of the Saints that allowed him to become a bane; we both seem to think it was his own will, and the Saints just used what was already there, if they had any hand in this at all.
Gargulec
impact!
- Location
- a garden
By what I have to assume is a fantastic coincidence, the discussion in this thread seems to fit perfectly fine with a certain important theological dispute which I am reading about currently - and so, I decided to play along a bit. The following is canon - perhaps.
Reading from the book of Doubts, part 1
Upon learning of the faleshood of his heathen ways, Saint Nebridius wrote a book that is called "Doubts", and he contained within it many questions he could not provide any answers for. And such was sincerity in the search for truth, and such was the yearning of his heart, that in naming them, he was given the grace of understanding, and became a man of the saintly faith.
Are the Saints bound by the relentless flow of time? Their nature is everlasting; those who beheld the name of God know not of transience. How can a mortal mind comprehend their eternal view? What does it mean for us to say: the Saints know what is to come - is it that we have no will of our own, or is our will known to them in ways we will never understand, at least not until the name of the God is revealed to all, and common sainthood is manifest.
Is he pious who follows, or who choses? Is sainthood achieved, or is it given?
A man once asked: is grace given to those, who do all they can do?
There was once a woman who would become a Saint, and a martyr; and vile men tortured her and asked her a question so that they could prove to her the sin of apostasy (for although they carried the word of the Saints on their lips, they were Malefactors at heart): "do you think that you are in a state of grace?" And she said unto them: "I pray: if I am not, may I be delivered into it, and if I am in it, then I pray: may I be delivered from ever leaving it."
A man asked: do the Saints love what is good because it is good, or is it good because the Saints love it? Some say he was a prophet; others claim he was a liar.
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- Location
- United States
Joan of Arc was quite the good debater for a French peasant. I was thinking of her when demon-guy posed the question.
The write-in seems to be giving her answer in a less-composed way. We cannot know the will of the Saints, but we can pray that they might guide our actions.
- Location
- St. Petersburg
Having not read a single theological treatise or dispute, I can hardly comment on those things. However, this struck me as an odd question.
What is an achieved sainthood, and what is a given one?
Scify
It always starts with a lighthouse.
Stab in the dark (and probably vastly oversimplified), but... have you learned much about the religious communities in colonial America? Several believed in pre-destination, wherein your place in Heaven or Hell was decided before you even existed. So, in regards to this story, the question is whether you achieve sainthood through a pious life and good works, or if you become a saint because you were always slated to become a saint.