- Location
- Georgia, US
- Pronouns
- He/Him
My god, you're a daywalker! A person who demonstrates both nerd and jock characteristics.
Is SV a bit too hostile to nerd culture?
- Thread starter Spacehillbilly
- Start date
AmbarGriss
Totally not four rats in a trench coat
- Location
- Brazil
He have all of our strenghs and none of the weaknesses.
- Location
- in the trash
The OP's mistake was to assume that nerds are somehow a monolithic, unified bloc, when that couldn't be further from the truth.
I mean, we literally argue over the stupidest fucking shit. Just pay a visit to VS debates some time
I mean, we literally argue over the stupidest fucking shit. Just pay a visit to VS debates some time
I'm going to quote the Hacker's Manifesto here and hope the formatting translates over.
The quintessential nerd identity was -- was -- about rebelling against the system, learning new things and exploring new ideas, rejecting exploitation and the 9-5 wageslave lifestyle, living in a place where who you are matters more than what you look like because people don't see you, they see your accomplishments and use that to gauge your skills and if you fail, it's because you have to learn more and improve, not because you slammed into a door and the bouncer doesn't want to let you pass.
Fascist nerd culture bought into the mainstream. It's all about judging people by what they look like. It's all about rejecting new ideas. It's all about feeding the profiteers. The gatekeepers, teachers, adults, corporations, and lawmakers who used to keep smart kids down have now become the perverse altars of the fascist nerds' martyrdom even as their objectives and beliefs converge. Corporations are rampantly racist and sexist, but if you don't get the promotion you deserve for being a white man, it's all because of the SJWs.
Underachieve. You're entitled to everything, so you shouldn't have to work for it.
Copy it. If you eat the same pile of shit -- comic books, films, television shows, video games, whatever -- enough time, you'll absorb all its nutrients. Keep everything as bland and tasteless as possible.
If there's a mistake, it's never because you screwed up. It's always because someone else hates you.
Never go where your skills are what truly matter. You deserve a free pass because of what you look like.
Let yourself be exploited. Swallow everything that's been prepared for you. You are what you buy and the only thing you want to see on the shelves is yourself. You made it, but no one else is allowed to make it.
People who don't look like you don't deserve entertainment.
People who don't look like you don't deserve art.
People who don't look like you don't deserve to be seen.
People who don't look like you can't be allowed to be seen, and they can't be allowed to have what you have. That would make you less special.
'Cause see, fascist nerds are part of the mainstream now, and being part of the mainstream means you have to keep other people out. There's only so much privilege to go around, after all.
Article: ==Phrack Inc.==
Volume One, Issue 7, Phile 3 of 10
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The following was written shortly after my arrest...
\/\The Conscience of a Hacker/\/
by
+++The Mentor+++
Written on January 8, 1986
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Another one got caught today, it's all over the papers. "Teenager
Arrested in Computer Crime Scandal", "Hacker Arrested after Bank Tampering"...
Damn kids. They're all alike.
But did you, in your three-piece psychology and 1950's technobrain,
ever take a look behind the eyes of the hacker? Did you ever wonder what
made him tick, what forces shaped him, what may have molded him?
I am a hacker, enter my world...
Mine is a world that begins with school... I'm smarter than most of
the other kids, this crap they teach us bores me...
Damn underachiever. They're all alike.
I'm in junior high or high school. I've listened to teachers explain
for the fifteenth time how to reduce a fraction. I understand it. "No, Ms.
Smith, I didn't show my work. I did it in my head..."
Damn kid. Probably copied it. They're all alike.
I made a discovery today. I found a computer. Wait a second, this is
cool. It does what I want it to. If it makes a mistake, it's because I
screwed it up. Not because it doesn't like me...
Or feels threatened by me...
Or thinks I'm a smart ass...
Or doesn't like teaching and shouldn't be here...
Damn kid. All he does is play games. They're all alike.
And then it happened... a door opened to a world... rushing through
the phone line like heroin through an addict's veins, an electronic pulse is
sent out, a refuge from the day-to-day incompetencies is sought... a board is
found.
"This is it... this is where I belong..."
I know everyone here... even if I've never met them, never talked to
them, may never hear from them again... I know you all...
Damn kid. Tying up the phone line again. They're all alike...
You bet your ass we're all alike... we've been spoon-fed baby food at
school when we hungered for steak... the bits of meat that you did let slip
through were pre-chewed and tasteless. We've been dominated by sadists, or
ignored by the apathetic. The few that had something to teach found us will-
ing pupils, but those few are like drops of water in the desert.
This is our world now... the world of the electron and the switch, the
beauty of the baud. We make use of a service already existing without paying
for what could be dirt-cheap if it wasn't run by profiteering gluttons, and
you call us criminals. We explore... and you call us criminals. We seek
after knowledge... and you call us criminals. We exist without skin color,
without nationality, without religious bias... and you call us criminals.
You build atomic bombs, you wage wars, you murder, cheat, and lie to us
and try to make us believe it's for our own good, yet we're the criminals.
Yes, I am a criminal. My crime is that of curiosity. My crime is
that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like.
My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me
for.
I am a hacker, and this is my manifesto. You may stop this individual,
but you can't stop us all... after all, we're all alike.
+++The Mentor+++
The quintessential nerd identity was -- was -- about rebelling against the system, learning new things and exploring new ideas, rejecting exploitation and the 9-5 wageslave lifestyle, living in a place where who you are matters more than what you look like because people don't see you, they see your accomplishments and use that to gauge your skills and if you fail, it's because you have to learn more and improve, not because you slammed into a door and the bouncer doesn't want to let you pass.
Fascist nerd culture bought into the mainstream. It's all about judging people by what they look like. It's all about rejecting new ideas. It's all about feeding the profiteers. The gatekeepers, teachers, adults, corporations, and lawmakers who used to keep smart kids down have now become the perverse altars of the fascist nerds' martyrdom even as their objectives and beliefs converge. Corporations are rampantly racist and sexist, but if you don't get the promotion you deserve for being a white man, it's all because of the SJWs.
Underachieve. You're entitled to everything, so you shouldn't have to work for it.
Copy it. If you eat the same pile of shit -- comic books, films, television shows, video games, whatever -- enough time, you'll absorb all its nutrients. Keep everything as bland and tasteless as possible.
If there's a mistake, it's never because you screwed up. It's always because someone else hates you.
Never go where your skills are what truly matter. You deserve a free pass because of what you look like.
Let yourself be exploited. Swallow everything that's been prepared for you. You are what you buy and the only thing you want to see on the shelves is yourself. You made it, but no one else is allowed to make it.
People who don't look like you don't deserve entertainment.
People who don't look like you don't deserve art.
People who don't look like you don't deserve to be seen.
People who don't look like you can't be allowed to be seen, and they can't be allowed to have what you have. That would make you less special.
'Cause see, fascist nerds are part of the mainstream now, and being part of the mainstream means you have to keep other people out. There's only so much privilege to go around, after all.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That is the quintessential punk identity. The manifesto you listed combining punk attitudes and cyber attitudes is basically the foundation for the cyberpunk ethos of the titular genre.
The specifics of terms like nerds is unclear to me, its unclear to me if there is any formal interpretation or many colloquial personal ones so I can only give my personal impression that:
Geek=someone who is knowledgeable and informed about a topic.
Dork=someone who is an obsessive fanboy with low social skills.
Nerd=someone who is knowledgeable and informed but is ALSO an obsessive fanboy with low social skills.
You may be confused because nerds and dorks often have delusions about being punk because fantasizing about being punks is the latest consumer fantasy corporations are feeding them. Geek are closer to being punk but people who are punk are making a conscious choice to rebel. Geeks are like people who just decide to become the world expert in traffic light frames because they were bored and curious. Nerds have fandoms, Geeks have hobbies. While it can often be a fandom which companies are busily feeding consumer products, it can just as easily be something no one is selling any to because its just too quirky or obscure or impossible to make a profit on.
But then again I'm not sure if I can really lay claim to these terms and say what they really mean, so maybe its just a semantic argument and we're on the same page. And I think a lot of the crowd you just ragged on here as epitomized by the likes of GG is probably closer to dork than nerd by the standards I specify, who don't show a proper appreciation or understanding of the material they doggedly defend or they'd understand that artistic and social critiques of their medium is a good thing. Dorks couldn't even make it as nerds, and don't understand the difference between the two, that there's more to being a nerd let alone a geek than having obscure culturally fringe hobbies, and the kind of things dorks pursue have generally long ceased to be obscure or culturally fringe anyways.
GG likes to pretend its still the 90s with Jack Thompson and Hillary Clinton attacking videogames with most people not playing it, but who are they kidding they grew up in an age where 90% of kids play videogames, many adults played videogames, and its a culturally mainstream product where bigass companies hawk triple AAA goods with production values in line with blockbuster movies and audiences to match.
While we're on the topic I'll note that cyberpunk is more an 80s/90s and Gen-Xer thing borne in response to Reagan rightwingism triumping with its greed is good messages and capitalism at its apex. Millennials grew up in age where communism is dead but End of History is also kind of dead, they're not committed to punk but they're not mindlessly consumerist either, they're sort-of closer to the post-cyberpunk attitude that has a more nuanced perspective between the two extremes.
And note the geek/nerd/dork and other such things can be applied to just about anything, certain song lyrics come to mind:
Smash Mouth said:
Of course MRAs raging about SJWs believe that they're the real true fans and the groups they hate are the fakers.Smash Mouth said:
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Selwyn
Tomorrow Will Come
- Location
- Mongolia
You know what I noticed? Nerd fanbois will whine about how they can't get a girl who's into the stuff they like but will also complain about the fandom chicks on Tumblr.
It's almost like... the women they want are on a pedestal... between nerd enough but not too nerd (and certainly not more nerd).
Food for thought.
@firefossil very nicely put, you basically outlined what I was thinking. I just couldn't explain it like you could.
It's almost like... the women they want are on a pedestal... between nerd enough but not too nerd (and certainly not more nerd).
Food for thought.
@firefossil very nicely put, you basically outlined what I was thinking. I just couldn't explain it like you could.
- Location
- New Delhi, India
Almost my ass; most media nerds consume places women on impossible pedestals that no one would act like in real life, so when nerds try to interact with women in real life based off of those expectations they fucking fail miserably.
EDIT: I'm mostly apathetic towards nerds; I'm of the opinion that so long as they're not really hurting themselves and/or anyone around them, that if their hobbies have positively impacted their lives and allowed them to connect with others and/or self-actualize, then being a nerd's alright, but that when it's used to do the exact opposite it's genuinely awful.
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Arthur Frayn
Fake God by Occupation, Magician by Inclination
- Location
- Land of Do As You Please
- Pronouns
- They/Him
The nerd/geek/dork/whatever ideal woman seems to be a supermodel who approves and validates all of their behavior and slots into their life without majorly disrupting it. A hot chick who can play Halo (but isn't better than them), who likes Star Wars (but not as much as they do), and wants to have sex all the time (but only when they want to).
That and start to finish it was an excuse to harass and attack people, mostly women, as a form of nerd gatekeeping.
I think a lot of it is- nerdstuff is not only mainstream but has been for years, Superheroes and SW dominate the box office, AAA video games sell as much as blockbuster movies, there's more women gamers than men.
Some 'nerd culture' stuff is a rejection of that and trying to move back to a fantasy time when nerddom was, to the people behind it, their small group of friends and not anyone who doesn't like them or they don't like and if they're not from it, making it like that. Notably what set it off was... someone making a video game not directed at them and getting positive reviews.
Seriously, I recommend using a different term- Like Men's Movement or such- and looking at places like The Good Men's Project who have a lot of articles on those subjects.
MRA groups are notorious for being incredibly focused on being anti-feminism/anti-women, to the point where they'll attack men's groups who try and tackle things like male suicide and such but who do *not* blame women for it (and note that feminism is a-okay with you tackling the problems you named, and a number of major groups have on their sites links to male abuse hotlines and such for men who need it).
MRA is kinda the toxic side of men's issues, that tries to eat the rest by turning discussion on men's problems into anger directed at others.
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AmineHsu
A worm, not a man, scorned and despised.
- Location
- NoVA
So, I see this topic and my interest is piqued cause I see this notion that 'nerds'/'geeks'/'dorks' were never ostracized/treated poorly which... doesn't line up with my life experiences and that across at least three different states.
Like, I'm not going to say it was worse than homosexual or blacks students have suffered at bigoted schools, cause I know it wasn't but it did happen to me and I'm sure it did to others too and having community and things to bond with others over helped me get through what was a really crappy situation.
I do feel a bit like SV is hostile to the idea of someone using 'nerd culture' as an escape from a world that doesn't like them.
Like, I'm not going to say it was worse than homosexual or blacks students have suffered at bigoted schools, cause I know it wasn't but it did happen to me and I'm sure it did to others too and having community and things to bond with others over helped me get through what was a really crappy situation.
I do feel a bit like SV is hostile to the idea of someone using 'nerd culture' as an escape from a world that doesn't like them.
Tithed_Verse
Vainglorious
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Yeah, well my biggest problem is that when I was a kid, I was androgynous enough that women assumed I was a girl, and men assumed I was a boy. It was nice, and it lasted until my early 20's. I'm still upset about the fact that my body stole that from me, and I can no longer swap social roles just by changing my clothing. The truth was I was cornered by a lot of bitter old divorced women and lectured about how men are pigs and women would be better off without them. I also heard a lot of jokes from older men that went "Women, can't live with them, can't XYZ them". But what I noticed was that men rarely tried to provoke young boys into violence against girl, but older women often tried to provoke young girls into violence against boys often. I heard men discuss how scared they were of a girlfriend stealing all of their money, and women discussing how to wrap a man around your finger so he'll do anything you ask.
I found that men are scared of women manipulating them, and women were afraid of men's physicality. But I also found that men strongly disapprove of other men who use their physicality against women, and women tend to approve of other women who manipulate men. (Then again men have much more mixed feelings.... both approval and disgust... towards men who manipulate women, but women are less afraid of men manipulating them. They're afraid of the guy sleeping around on them, but not of the guy stealing their heart as one in a long line of conquests. Men, on the other hand are, as mentioned before, afraid of being wrapped around a woman's finger and being 'horsewhipped')
I admit I'm not really clued into current major women's speakers and causes... I'm really not clued into current major men's speakers or clauses. All in all, gender issues remain a vaguely alien idea to me. I don't really think of myself as masculine or feminine, and I think it's extremely disconcerting that people identify themselves so strongly with these 'gender roles' that are really just fake characters from sitcoms. Sometimes I feel like me and my equally 'who gives a damn about gender rules' spouse (Who's a self identified feminist, but is equally alienated to the actual movements and concepts of gender as I earnestly am)
But when I grew up, the way men behaved vs how women behaved seemed a trifle unfair to men.
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elenchus
leftism is quantifiable
- Location
- Texas ;_;
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Unrelated to your main point, but it sounds like you might be nonbinary or genderfluid and struggling with indirect body dysphoria. Have you tried discussing with a gender care therapist? Some community clinics have low-cost therapists for LGBTQ+ people, though I don't know if Iowa does.
- Location
- Georgia, US
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The reactions to this thread have not been against the idea of nerds being picked on, obviously that's something that has happened. Rather it was just confusion at the idea that it happens here when the entire point of SV is to act as a cluster of forums for generally nerdy topics.
Honestly I'm skeptical of this, how so?
AmineHsu
A worm, not a man, scorned and despised.
- Location
- NoVA
There has been a repeated refrain that since some nerdy stuff (comics, video games, rpgs) have gained popular acceptance, nerds are no longer picked on.
And someone in this thread did claim nerds were never really picked on
Mostly in the perception it was only ever a thing in response to this movie and only for a short while after.
Mostly in how eager people are to yell nerds aren't a real group or don't deserve to be a group/community because some members have admittedly acted pretty scummy.
I mean, the fact that some nerds are real scumbags is a fact. The fact that some nerds decide to defend d said scumbags because of a sense of community/loyalty is a tragedy and failure of the community. But I don't think that means the group no longer deserves to exist...
I also don't think just because Big Bang Theory, Big Budget Comic Book movies and AAA video games are popular somehow means nerds magically don't get picked on.
Bill Gates isn't proof nerds won, Bill Gates (for as great a guy as he is now) got where her is cause he was cunning and honestly a social powerhouse and il his ambition was often at the expense of other nerds he wad alle to manipulate into benefiting himself.
Bill Gates is proof ambition and social prowess win in a capitalistic society.
Blah, feel like I got a little of topic.
Sword of Mars
Magical Girl Aficionado
- Location
- Canada
No, not at all. I know what real mockery and hostility to 'nerd' 'culture' is and it doesn't exist here. It also isn't that fake GG shit, or whatever those Fascist wannabes 'just asking questions' think it is.
It's about liking things. Specifically it was about liking Computers, Comic Books, Board Games like Chess, and Tabletop, Anime, before that was segregated into "Otaku/Weaboo" subcategory science fiction and generally liking fiction at all in public. My father wanted to make something of himself. He was for a brief time a super nerdy fellow. He grew up on a farm and he wanted to know about computers, so he went to school for it, you know what that got him? He was disinherited and nearly disowned. It was the snide bullying over liking things 'uncool' and expressing interest in things beyond what society thought normal at the time. Shit, when I was in the fucking Chess club in highschool we either A) didn't talk about it to avoid getting insulted, or B) just dealt with the ridicule of liking something as nerdy and uncool as 'chess'. Older fellows were called manchildren for expressing interests in more 'childish things' or whatever.
THAT, was the hostility to Nerd culture. Right now in the highly technology dependent and comparatively more open minded society hostility to Nerd Culture is basically nonexistent beyond fringes and fads like certain types of Luddites, hipsters and well certain types of old people. Nowadays if my father was to go back into computers he'd be credited as a 'smart man' compared to his current profession as a used car salesman who are nowadays considered 'scum' or 'slimy'.
Fuck maybe I should start a thread about 'What's the fucking deal about the hostility to Used Car Salesmen?'.
It's about liking things. Specifically it was about liking Computers, Comic Books, Board Games like Chess, and Tabletop, Anime, before that was segregated into "Otaku/Weaboo" subcategory science fiction and generally liking fiction at all in public. My father wanted to make something of himself. He was for a brief time a super nerdy fellow. He grew up on a farm and he wanted to know about computers, so he went to school for it, you know what that got him? He was disinherited and nearly disowned. It was the snide bullying over liking things 'uncool' and expressing interest in things beyond what society thought normal at the time. Shit, when I was in the fucking Chess club in highschool we either A) didn't talk about it to avoid getting insulted, or B) just dealt with the ridicule of liking something as nerdy and uncool as 'chess'. Older fellows were called manchildren for expressing interests in more 'childish things' or whatever.
THAT, was the hostility to Nerd culture. Right now in the highly technology dependent and comparatively more open minded society hostility to Nerd Culture is basically nonexistent beyond fringes and fads like certain types of Luddites, hipsters and well certain types of old people. Nowadays if my father was to go back into computers he'd be credited as a 'smart man' compared to his current profession as a used car salesman who are nowadays considered 'scum' or 'slimy'.
Fuck maybe I should start a thread about 'What's the fucking deal about the hostility to Used Car Salesmen?'.
Tithed_Verse
Vainglorious
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I'm well aware of the fact that I don't have a gender identity, but what can I do about it? Wearing a gender identity is like wearing an uncomfotable shoe, but it is as expected in society as high heels, ties, and other uncomfortable clothing, especially for the type of job I work (finance).
my aging is causing much worse body dysphoria than my losing my androgenity: Among other things, I can't run on nothing but coffee for two days with no sleep anymore, I'm going deaf and hear a constant ringing, I can't lift my spouse into the air and spin them around like we're gymnists anymore, and I'm developing crow's feet around my eyes, laugh lines on my face, and I'm prematurely greying. And my cute perky butt is getting saggy. My pubes have gone ghost white as of two years ago, and I'm seeing grey in my eyebrows. Losing my andronegity and losing my youth were a rapid one two blow that happened so close together it's hard to say how seperate they really are emotionally. But there's nothing I think I can do about it. I'm even losing my ability to learn, it's no where near the levels it used to be, but that's probably because worked in an enviroment that was about 10-20% methane gas for 16 hours a day, seven days a week for two months and a bit until the fire department noticed. Pretty sure that's enough to cause some brain damage.
All my childhood my body's been on the edge of collapse: It never took much for it to start dysfunctioning. My father rarely belived me, though, called me a hypochondriac. I remember days, sometimes a whole week of continual farting, for example, or septic ear infections that had me trying to claw my ear off of my face. I even got whooping cough in highschool. Who the hell gets whooping cough these days? I'm not surprised that I'm still this fragile as an adult. But now I'm suffering all new indignities, like sudden bouts of weakness that leave me unable to lift my neck for four hours(has happened, like, twice so far this year). I don't think this is normal, but what doctor would even belive me? And I have hemmeroids now, and I suffered my first broken bone recently. My teeth are bad, I had 14 cavities fixed just recently. I'm getting old and it makes me sad and... this isn't my personal place to air my problems, sorry.
It doesn't help with the doctor that my spouse belives in those weird parasites that change phase from worm to jelly or whatever, and in morgellians. I don't belive in that stuff, it's one of the two my spouse and I fight about. My spouse thinks my problems are because I trust in normal medicine too much and alternative medicine too little. But I think we both get tarred by the same brush when interacting with our doctors, because we always see the same doctors together.
All my childhood my body's been on the edge of collapse: It never took much for it to start dysfunctioning. My father rarely belived me, though, called me a hypochondriac. I remember days, sometimes a whole week of continual farting, for example, or septic ear infections that had me trying to claw my ear off of my face. I even got whooping cough in highschool. Who the hell gets whooping cough these days? I'm not surprised that I'm still this fragile as an adult. But now I'm suffering all new indignities, like sudden bouts of weakness that leave me unable to lift my neck for four hours(has happened, like, twice so far this year). I don't think this is normal, but what doctor would even belive me? And I have hemmeroids now, and I suffered my first broken bone recently. My teeth are bad, I had 14 cavities fixed just recently. I'm getting old and it makes me sad and... this isn't my personal place to air my problems, sorry.
It doesn't help with the doctor that my spouse belives in those weird parasites that change phase from worm to jelly or whatever, and in morgellians. I don't belive in that stuff, it's one of the two my spouse and I fight about. My spouse thinks my problems are because I trust in normal medicine too much and alternative medicine too little. But I think we both get tarred by the same brush when interacting with our doctors, because we always see the same doctors together.
Sorry, that's pretty off topic. But my understanding is everyone's body betrays them when they age, after all old people always compained to me when I was young about how their bodies betrayed them. And I don't want to go under the knife over and over to keep trying in vain to turn back the clock. I'm generally a pretty positive and cheerful person for someone so pessimistic about my own odds of survival for the next twenty years. Something just feels like my life is more than half over.
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- Location
- New Delhi, India
... Fuck this bullshit man.
Tithed_Verse
Vainglorious
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Yeah, and the perfect man is a warrior and a poet who will defend you when you're attacked, but won't start fights needlessly, is sensative enough to tell your needs, except when you don't want him to know, is playful enough to entertain you except when you're in serious mode, who loves you for your personality (but thinks your body is hot). Who doesn't want sex (Exept when you want him to). Or, under a better description, the perfect mate (for either sex) is moderate and unexceptional except when they are.
If you want a partner, and not just a mate, look for people who are similar to yourself enough to be comfortable, but different enough to be challanging.
Hotdog Vendor
Author of 'Sisters of Rail'
- Location
- (5 + 3 * sqrt(5)) / 8
- Pronouns
- She/Her
What even is and isn't 'cool' these days? With the prevalence of social media it seems like everything is simultaneously both depending on whether you ask inside or outside its fandom.
It seems that today 'nerd culture' is not about what you like. It's about gatekeeping and signalling and using 'being a nerd' as a social weapon or tool.
It seems that today 'nerd culture' is not about what you like. It's about gatekeeping and signalling and using 'being a nerd' as a social weapon or tool.
Sword of Mars
Magical Girl Aficionado
- Location
- Canada
Gatekeeping has always been a thing for every group. So is using social weapons against each other, it just hasn't been a popular enough label to hear about it more often. A classic example is probably Fiction vs SciFiction crowd. Or a more recent development Manga vs Anime elitists (or Dub vs Sub elitists).
Or generally Gatekeeping can happen when people find out you have hobbies others don't like. When I was in Highschool, me, my friend D, Mustache and Shaggy (obviously not their real names) and a few others would gamble, and there were a few kids who hated us gambling and stone walled us from joining a few 'nerd' clubs like Art, Computer and Bookclub. The only club we collectively could join was the Chess club (which I got kicked out of for not being a mental athlete in. 6th place in the regional tournament wasn't good enough).
Otherwise known as: You're completely right. What is 'cool' in one area wont be 'in', in the next. Social groups have their own version of what is acceptable but it has been a problem since forever.
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It's unfair to everyone- that's where the term toxic masculinity comes from. It's poison to the people who have it too. Men aren't allowed to be into feminine stuff, and it sucks if you're even perceived as being into it. Men are taught that women are out to get them and have to be controlled, rather than people who they can talk to. Patriarchy BS is not about making stuff fun for men, or not most men at least, it's about making men fit into a mold where they're supposed to control 'dangerous' women and if they don't fit in that mold they get rejected. It's about denying emotions and pain and connection to others. It sucks!
That said, do you blame it being unhealthy on men on nasty cultural assumptions that get picked up, on barriers built up between the genders in society, or on women and feminists? If it's the former, congratulations, a lot of well-learned people agree with you, myself included. If you think it's the latter, then that's MRA turf.
Like, there was a 'manosphere' convention lead by one of the big MRA groups. Aside from 'vanilla' MRA, they also had Redpillers, pro-rape people, stuff like that. That's not even exaggeration, MRA pretty much define toxic masculinity and that sort of thing. The MRA movement is absurdly toxic- and to clarify something, it's not a good movement that was taken over by toxic people, the people who use that name have pretty much been that type from the sort.
Anyway, here's some resources that might be good for you-
Men's Movement.
Good Men Project
Men's Lib reddit (article about them)
"Here was a space featuring serious, constructive conversations about how to lift men up without bringing women down. It doesn't shy away from words like "intersectionality" — but its focus is on how restrictive gender roles hurt men in particular.
It features discussions about topics like the cavalier treatment of male rape in pop culture, or how homophobia is toxic to male friendships, or how to improve services for men who are victims of abuse. And it features real-world activism, like compiling a list of resources for men, holding fundraisers for advocacy groups, and organizing community volunteer events."
If that sounds good to you, check it out.
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Nerx
Chikin Noodle
- Location
- Sunda Kelapa
Could be reactions to nerd elitism, Ideally nerd culture ought to be like Jehovah's Witnesses where newcomers are allowed and inclusiveness is spread. We want to waterboard them with so much lore and participation that there is little to life besides these wonderful fictional things, let them breathe the culture and ultimately be the culture at cost of their previous identity. People should be assimilated not kept away, the problem is that some gatekeepers are preventing that.
I like how you're both trying to present a positive and using analogies like waterboarding, assimilation, and cost of personal identity.
Tithed_Verse
Vainglorious
- Location
- Iowa
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Oh, I definately blame it on barriers built up between genders in society. Femnists have done a great job of tearing down those barriers for women, I honestly strongly appreciate that. And the only femnists who are part of the problem are the 'ironic' misanderists. But I don't hear on the news about femnist groups donating to anti-testicular cancer research. Worse, the News Media sees femnists as a group to cater to, and provides some very slanted statistics to draw their attention. (Anything REALLY bad in the world, I blame on the fact that media is paid for eyeballs not accuracy)
I do hear about femnists teaching their male children that it's alright to have femninine interests, and I appreciate that... but I'd rather they teach the children that there's no such thing as femnine or masculine interests, and that the concept of femninine and masculine is a social delusion, which is the truth.
And my own personal experience with femnists was those bitter old women trying to teach me to be physically and emotionally violent towards men. After growing up with that as a child, I kinda just made an opinion of the group. I'm sure the opinion is biased but... it's just like those kids who grow up in a bad church and decide most christians are bad. I can have femnist friends (and do have femnist friends, as stated previously my spouse is), but the idea of joining a femnist group just isn't very appealing to me. I do appreciate the links you gave me for other men's groups.
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Jace911
Spider-Dork
- Location
- The Gold-Bricking State
Probably because they're a bit busy donating to fight breast cancer, which manifests about 25 times more frequently in women than the much more survivable testicular cancer does in men.
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