10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
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Do you know which update that was?
Inheritance Of Man (A Mass Effect Empire Quest)
- Thread starter Crystalwatcher
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
Crystalwatcher
(Verified GM)
- Location
- Limbo
Thread is moving faster than I can type, so dropping this here and catching up before i make an idiot out of myself.
So using what data she did have, Liara looked like the perfect candidate to facilitate positive relations between the Citadel and Covenant, even if she didn't actually graduate.
So, again, mis-informed decision on Eve's part that probably could have gone better.
So to them, "potential loss of limbs" isn't as important as "even if you don't graduate, you still get awesome combat training". They're aware PTSD and Trauma are major factors, and thus have large set ups for that, but again, everyone considers that common knowledge.
If you look into the details, then yes, there's a long list of possible side effects such as said PTSD from the training. But again, who exactly looks up possible dangers when going on 'vacation', especially rebellious teens who are going on said vacation to stick it to their overbearing parent?
So part of the blame can also be laid at Liara's feet. Also Benezia's.
Their primary religion and the core pillar of their society is based around Eve's status as their god. To the point if you go back and look at the few times Eve directly intervened or did something in relation to them the entire faction radically changed course. And in Liara's case, it was more a political move to improve relations between the Council and the Covenant by giving one of their own something the Covenant considers sacrosanct. Namely permission to go to Heaven and receive direct teaching from the Eventide.
It was in a previous update a while back. I'd have to go dig it up, but most of what they do are off screen because they're a Covenant asset. If you guys do the Hounds of Hell option though, you'll start getting more on-screen helpfulness from them.
To be fair, this is a failure on Eve's part. She doesn't know much about Asari culture (that's all locked behind the piety option), so when she was going through applicants, all she saw was a nearly-hundred year old alien (remember she's used to dealing with the covenant who average life span reaches 100-170 or so) with prior military training (again, remember, she doesn't know that her training was only partial, or that it amounted to one of her body guards giving her lessons) and a part of the big faction the Covenant have been trying to play nice with. And had no prior felonies or history of hostile behavior.
So using what data she did have, Liara looked like the perfect candidate to facilitate positive relations between the Citadel and Covenant, even if she didn't actually graduate.
So, again, mis-informed decision on Eve's part that probably could have gone better.
There's also the fact of a radical difference in cultures and sub cultures. For the Covenant, pretty much all of them grow up with the fact Satan is real, and it's coming to kill us all if we don't work to stop it looming over their heads. So pretty much everything is geared towards building up to that in one fashion or another. They didn't think to consider what it'd be like to be a civilization with something like that not hanging over their heads.
So to them, "potential loss of limbs" isn't as important as "even if you don't graduate, you still get awesome combat training". They're aware PTSD and Trauma are major factors, and thus have large set ups for that, but again, everyone considers that common knowledge.
If you look into the details, then yes, there's a long list of possible side effects such as said PTSD from the training. But again, who exactly looks up possible dangers when going on 'vacation', especially rebellious teens who are going on said vacation to stick it to their overbearing parent?
So part of the blame can also be laid at Liara's feet. Also Benezia's.
The loyalty ingraving is something of a given considering the Covenant's culture.
Their primary religion and the core pillar of their society is based around Eve's status as their god. To the point if you go back and look at the few times Eve directly intervened or did something in relation to them the entire faction radically changed course. And in Liara's case, it was more a political move to improve relations between the Council and the Covenant by giving one of their own something the Covenant considers sacrosanct. Namely permission to go to Heaven and receive direct teaching from the Eventide.
This also explains it better then me.
I'm surprised the Krogan haven't tried getting in on it, also the Metacons may be a decent reason to petition a fix up for/of the Genophage.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
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Not really.
If you're running a psychological and psychical torture chamber, it's your responsibility to clearly communicate both the content and risks, and clearly verify that these risks are understood.
Hiding the risks in the small letters of the contract, or the common sense clauses is not an excuse.
Failure to do that puts the blame squarely here.
Edit: Similarly, the fact that we didn't have enough information in order to make meaningful decisions is just one more argument to shut down the Playground, at least until we actually have said information.
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- Location
- madison
wait, we need to take that option to gain common knowledge level of understanding about species? I thought it was for deep cultural understanding and such, not "read space Wikipedia" level stuff? I think one action per species for that kind of understanding is maybe a little excessive?
Tiypo
Forever Phone Posting
This is the sort of reason we have them. The Plsyground is a forge for OG Mass Effect Shepherds, because we won't be counting on some color coded bullshit to win the war. Are people traumatized, yes; but for every fifty or a hundred that we send to therapy we're probably going to save millions when a Knight is able to turn the tide against a Reaper invasion.
Crystalwatcher
(Verified GM)
- Location
- Limbo
It's more for the non-obvious stuff.
Like the fact the asari don't consider physical maturity as the cut off point, or the fact they actually have different maturity stages to begin with.
Aside from that, Eve collects the surface level stuff automatically, but otherwise doesn't look deeper unless she deems it necessary.
I'll make a codex for the playground.
Aside from that, Eve wasn't hiding the risks, and putting that shit in small letters is what literally everyone does. And I mean everyone. I agree, it's bad form, but even a cursory look around proves my point. If you don't dig into the small text a lot of shit isn't directly stated in big bold letters. And again, different cultures, means different things are considered important to point out.
- Location
- madison
which you can get off space Wikipedia, hell reading the real world mass effect entry on them would explain that they age oddly, hell this would come up in conversation. That asari are not fully mature by age 100 is basic stuff. the basics of asari age is very much surface-level information.
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10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
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- Present
You can't simultaneously argue that she wasn't hiding the risk, and argue that she hides the risks like everyone else.
In any case, the basic facts are not in dispute.
Whether it was through incompetence or inattentiveness, the risks were not communicated properly.
There was no thorough attempt at verifying that the risks had been successfully communicated.
Someone clearly failed, and as the owner and operator of the Torture facility, Eve is where the buck stops.
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I have to point out that the reason Shep was good was because they united people. Being a badass was good, but there were a lot of people like that.
What you need against Reapers is leaders. Not supersoldiers
Crystalwatcher
(Verified GM)
- Location
- Limbo
I'm going to take a brake from this before my temper explodes.
I will admit I understands everyone's stances, but I still stand by mine that there is a MAJOR disconnect in communication here. And that none of you are trying to help me find where that fucking disconnect is, instead of screaming "my morals says this is wrong, and we should follow mine instead of considering the fact they might not be applicable in this scenario".
Which, honestly considering this entire quest is about said differences, is driving me up a fucking wall.
... Actually, no, some of you are trying to help, and I am grateful. But this is still driving me up the wall and I'm done arguing for now.
I will admit I understands everyone's stances, but I still stand by mine that there is a MAJOR disconnect in communication here. And that none of you are trying to help me find where that fucking disconnect is, instead of screaming "my morals says this is wrong, and we should follow mine instead of considering the fact they might not be applicable in this scenario".
Which, honestly considering this entire quest is about said differences, is driving me up a fucking wall.
... Actually, no, some of you are trying to help, and I am grateful. But this is still driving me up the wall and I'm done arguing for now.
This is likely a failure on my end. But again, do you google Africa if your neighbor you rarely talk to is a migrant? I don't, but that's me.
- Location
- Texas
Okay, really? Torture facility? Really what the playground looks like to me is a souped up, technologically advanced Ranger course. Is it absolutely shitty? Yes. Is there a fair-middling chance you'll be maimed? Also yes. Do you come out a better soldier having done the course, even if you dont graduate? Hell yes.
You're acting like we run the playground to satisfy some craving for suffering of others. Just stop, seriously.
Tiypo
Forever Phone Posting
The only reason Shep had to unite people is because no one was ready and few were willing to even try to be ready. Rather than a good politicker, we need people that can keep a level head in the middle of Actually Satan and his armies decending from the skies and figure out how to drive them back.
- Location
- Reno Nv
A bit of a improvement for they playground would be what they will be doing in fine print. That and lots and lots of waivers.
Tiypo
Forever Phone Posting
We probably do have that, but the Covenant members know what they're getting into, and whatever Liara looked up she probably thought was an exaggeration meant to scare people off, because "It can't be that much worse than Asari commando training" would be a frighteningly easy view to take for an outsider.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
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This here is a major disconnect here. The Playground is not a technologically advanced training course. A technologically advanced training course would teach you how to do something, then let you repeat what has been thought under a controlled environment. It would give your opportunities for adaption or for improvement. Put simply, it would let you learn.
The Playground exists for the purpose of trying to almost kill you, but not quite. It springs stuff on you without warning, not to teach you stuff, but to force you to adapt or die a horrific near-death. It doesn't do examples (save by taking out other candidates), retrials or demonstrations. It offers only one chance, and you either succeed, or, fail once, and get thrown out immediately.
After all, what is the learning benefit of being boiled alive by a solar laser without warning? You don't learn anything from that. All you do is suffer, and more importantly, all your teammates do is suffer as they watch you burn.
The PTSD created by the playground is not an incidental effect of the way it operates. It is part of it's design paradigm.
The playground pushes people until they break, deliberately, and then keeps pushing them.
Because the paradigm on which it is built is the following :
The Playground exists to break people, and then see if they continue onwards.
And that is what makes it a torture chamber. Because it's not created to train people. It supposed to make people suffer until they either drop-out or live through.
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- Location
- Texas
@10ebbor10 Still not seeing the issue here. High-level military training is always grueling, that's usually one of the main intentions.
- Location
- Outer Space
I don't get the Hangup here... If I were to go to a foreign country to enter a voluntary hardcore Training Ground, it's my job to ask questions and inform myself before entering.
Was there a post somewhere that advertised it as easy beginner course or why is it suddenly such a big problem?
Was there a post somewhere that advertised it as easy beginner course or why is it suddenly such a big problem?
Umm, no, they aren't referred to as PTSD chew toys, Chew Toys is the term for people who didn't get all the way through and most would have some form of PTSD, such as the PTSD of a bad fall which Brock your legs and an arm when you were younger.
And according to what you think that means nobody should ever be allowed to climb anything again and we should destroy all multi floor buildings so we can live only on a single floor.
PTSD does NOT cause people to 'snap' and go on rampages like you seem to be thinking of generally speaking.
- Location
- Reno Nv
[X] Plan Vanitati Latinae Canentes
Right so, something we need to consider here is we are nearing an Ragnarock situation here. Normal rules of morality are suspended in case of survival. Because we will need everything we can get our digital hands on. Wether it be black hole guns or super soldiers training in the mouth of hell, we will need everything to even stand a chance if suriving the coming hord.
Right so, something we need to consider here is we are nearing an Ragnarock situation here. Normal rules of morality are suspended in case of survival. Because we will need everything we can get our digital hands on. Wether it be black hole guns or super soldiers training in the mouth of hell, we will need everything to even stand a chance if suriving the coming hord.
- Location
- madison
I'm not a nation state-level actor who can read a trillion things at once. Eve is not some bumbling dork, she's a hyper-advanced AI who acts on the scale of nations. Basic competence would involve at least a surface level understanding of all major races. Sure a deep dive can be its own thing, but if basic understanding needs that races actions, we are going to be kinda crippled because there are 10 "learn about a species" actions left. That is far to many to realistically take before the end of the quest.
You treat trauma too lightly. I don't mean in some moral way, I mean when you use it you tend not to give it the proper narrative weight, or fully consider the impact it will have. Inflicting lasting psychological harm on someone is not a throwaway thing, it's a weighty narrative consequence that the players would not like being sprung on them. If the playground was going to have a high amount of psychological casualties, that changes its nature. It becomes a far more ruthless and desperate action. It's eve deciding that breaking a few thousand people is worth it if she can create just a handful of heroes to face the light.
the playground with flavor text warning that it will break a lot of the applicants becomes more somber, less wacky and badass and more solom, it because doing evil for our goal. The players did not grasp how ruthless and damaging the playground was, so are angry because they feel a narrative cost of it was concealed from them.
Dream Logic
An offseason swallow
- Location
- In transit
I'm going to take this as a sign that the Covenant *really* has huge cultural differences and is pretty much institutionally traumatized. Half the species in the grouping have a literal species wide trauma button they assume people are mentally able to handle 'die, get maimed, or survive' type situations if they know that's what they're getting into.
The thing that scares the shit out of me with the playground is that apparently we don't tell people who are about to enter it that we *really* meant everything we said. That you are liable to lose limbs at minimum and probably die. It might be a disconnect but it comes off as us not properly screening people to make sure they're informed of what they're signing up for. Yes, everyone we take in is immensely dangerous and capable but it still rubs me the wrong way that we essentially don't sit them down and explain in great detail how and what they are liable to experience and whether they are able to handle not just the physical but the psychological strain.
I guess it's the difference between signing up for hell week with the marines and Ranger training but also with deathbots. It just feels like we're taking people who are qualified to do it in theory but the extended brutality makes me worry that we're being a bit unethical in how we set it up and that we should be doing more to make people understand just what they're getting into.
The thing that scares the shit out of me with the playground is that apparently we don't tell people who are about to enter it that we *really* meant everything we said. That you are liable to lose limbs at minimum and probably die. It might be a disconnect but it comes off as us not properly screening people to make sure they're informed of what they're signing up for. Yes, everyone we take in is immensely dangerous and capable but it still rubs me the wrong way that we essentially don't sit them down and explain in great detail how and what they are liable to experience and whether they are able to handle not just the physical but the psychological strain.
I guess it's the difference between signing up for hell week with the marines and Ranger training but also with deathbots. It just feels like we're taking people who are qualified to do it in theory but the extended brutality makes me worry that we're being a bit unethical in how we set it up and that we should be doing more to make people understand just what they're getting into.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
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- Present
There's a difference between gruelling training and abitrary violence. The Playground is the latter.
I don't think I implied anything of the sort.
We have the example of Liara blowing up her own room because she got startled, and brutally dismembering someone. That is the only snap I referred to, because it actually happened in the story.
