Inheritance Of Man (A Mass Effect Empire Quest)
- Thread starter Crystalwatcher
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
Crystalwatcher
(Verified GM)
- Location
- Limbo
A/N: Warning, author word vomit ahead. If you don't want spoilers you can skip the far bottom.
You've answered/commented on literally everything I've been having a problem with in the current conversation.
Can I say was totally unintentional?
*hides notes*
Because it totally was.
Personally, I intended the "trauma" to be part of each update while focusing on the teamwork and the overcoming literally impossible odds. If you go back to the laser and actually think about it, there's some really horrible implications to it. Especially when you stop to consider the Playground likes to spring things on you without warning or buildup.
Or in other words: ask yourself how many chew toys washed out because sudden kill sat appeared and started cooking them like popcorn?
There's also the fact Liara is only 99 here. Meaning in asari terms, she probably only just got out of school herself and back from the big dig that woke up the Prothean Remnant. She's still a child in her species' eyes, and both of her parents are hilariously overprotective of her.
Liara had minor commando training, sure, but she also grew up sheltered and the... maybe one dig she's been on had a lot of high-level security that ended with her waking up the remnants of an imperial regime. So her 'real world' experience is somewhat limited.
So when she picked up a brochure about Covenant Space, likely made by the Covenant instead of Eve considering they started opening tourism the last year before the Metacons woke up, that talked about an 'adventurous trial of skill in the land of the gods' and likely just got off Benezia ban-hammering another archaeological dig considering what happened to the last one, decided to 'try it out' since she couldn't run off and do what she wanted originally. Especially since the differences between the Covenant and Citadel a number of the "out there" warnings could also be passed off as artful exaggeration. (Because seriously, who would advertise almost guaranteed loss of limb besides the krogan who get off on that shit?)
Liara's going to be in therapy for a few years at minimum, with a high chance of being approached by the Spectres in order to get an in-road on the Eventide. Benezia and Aethyta, if they had their way, would likely wrap Liara up in bubble wrap and stick her on a dreadnaught for the next hundred years, but even they are forced to admit the kind of leverage Liara represents in the grand scheme of things.
Namely: if she asked, Liara would immediately be granted access to some of the best technology in the Covenant. A lot of which is far and above, beyond what the Citadel currently has in many areas. And most of the Covenant wouldn't think to ask twice!
And as for what Knights gain the Covenant? A single Knight can pull off missions that a dustling commando team wouldn't be able to.
Remember that "Knight of the Eventide" trait is just a shared trait. Every single Knight, for lack of a better description, can be considered "Re-roll central". And a number of them get even more exotic bonuses than that.
And I'm also surprised no one has considered what running more "classes" could mean now that Citadel Species are joining in. Namely, how time in the playground might change canon characters. On my immediate list is one Urdnot Wreav. Someone who is going to be central to my plans for the Krogan in the future.
(Ignore this is also a blatant attempt by the author to convince the players to facilitate said plans.)
But yeah, a lot of seemingly useless actions, while pointless on your end, are doing shit for other factions in the galaxy. Just, can we keep that in mind? Please?
I think I love you.
You've answered/commented on literally everything I've been having a problem with in the current conversation.
*looks at notes*
Can I say was totally unintentional?
*hides notes*
Because it totally was.
To be fair, Eve aimed the propaganda surrounding the Pit at a bunch of over-zealous fanatics who really wouldn't care much beyond "possible loss of limbs". She never planned on people from the Citadel going "oh, whats this?" Which is a major oversight for her, yes.
To be fair, a lot of them problems on this argument are likely my fault.
Personally, I intended the "trauma" to be part of each update while focusing on the teamwork and the overcoming literally impossible odds. If you go back to the laser and actually think about it, there's some really horrible implications to it. Especially when you stop to consider the Playground likes to spring things on you without warning or buildup.
Or in other words: ask yourself how many chew toys washed out because sudden kill sat appeared and started cooking them like popcorn?
There's also the fact Liara is only 99 here. Meaning in asari terms, she probably only just got out of school herself and back from the big dig that woke up the Prothean Remnant. She's still a child in her species' eyes, and both of her parents are hilariously overprotective of her.
Liara had minor commando training, sure, but she also grew up sheltered and the... maybe one dig she's been on had a lot of high-level security that ended with her waking up the remnants of an imperial regime. So her 'real world' experience is somewhat limited.
So when she picked up a brochure about Covenant Space, likely made by the Covenant instead of Eve considering they started opening tourism the last year before the Metacons woke up, that talked about an 'adventurous trial of skill in the land of the gods' and likely just got off Benezia ban-hammering another archaeological dig considering what happened to the last one, decided to 'try it out' since she couldn't run off and do what she wanted originally. Especially since the differences between the Covenant and Citadel a number of the "out there" warnings could also be passed off as artful exaggeration. (Because seriously, who would advertise almost guaranteed loss of limb besides the krogan who get off on that shit?)
Liara's going to be in therapy for a few years at minimum, with a high chance of being approached by the Spectres in order to get an in-road on the Eventide. Benezia and Aethyta, if they had their way, would likely wrap Liara up in bubble wrap and stick her on a dreadnaught for the next hundred years, but even they are forced to admit the kind of leverage Liara represents in the grand scheme of things.
Namely: if she asked, Liara would immediately be granted access to some of the best technology in the Covenant. A lot of which is far and above, beyond what the Citadel currently has in many areas. And most of the Covenant wouldn't think to ask twice!
And as for what Knights gain the Covenant? A single Knight can pull off missions that a dustling commando team wouldn't be able to.
Remember that "Knight of the Eventide" trait is just a shared trait. Every single Knight, for lack of a better description, can be considered "Re-roll central". And a number of them get even more exotic bonuses than that.
And I'm also surprised no one has considered what running more "classes" could mean now that Citadel Species are joining in. Namely, how time in the playground might change canon characters. On my immediate list is one Urdnot Wreav. Someone who is going to be central to my plans for the Krogan in the future.
(Ignore this is also a blatant attempt by the author to convince the players to facilitate said plans.)
But yeah, a lot of seemingly useless actions, while pointless on your end, are doing shit for other factions in the galaxy. Just, can we keep that in mind? Please?
She would be atypical, mainly due the fact that the Covenant troops who have been going through the Playground have vastly been through a nightmare that can be just as potentially harsh. They've been through the Terra Terminus. The frontline there has been ongoing since shortly after the first contact war the Covenant had with its members, which would be in theory could be over a hundred years since it started and no less than 9 years (first turn started in 2148 in universe). The nightmares from Terra Terminus are permanent. The Playground's nightmares are not. Even if you washout here you take away an experience that might prepare you for the monsters that killed the Terminus.
Edit: And CW just added their 2 cents too so my comment is just my mere opinion.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
If I'm going to be honest, this only argues that the playground is even more unethical, exploitative and ill concieved than I previously thought. It's clear that there's no competent vetting or oversight of the candidates, no effective information on the risk, and then the resulting people are let go and given access to highly advanced and highly destructive technology with apparently limited follow up and zero social accountability.
Basically, this seems like a great way to create the Unabomber, only this time a planet.
While might be your intention, in practice we haven't actually seen this at all. Either I've forgotten, but I don't think we've heard of the Knights every doing anything useful.
They may be neat all they want, but unless we see some actual reasons why we need them, I'm thinking that avoiding massive torture of innocent victims is worth the trade-off.
I don't see the usefulness in traumatizing more people. Trauma causes a whole host of negative effects, and if people are key to the future of entire races, then we should do our best to avoid going out of our way to traumatize them.
Time in the playground changing major characters is more of a threat than an incentive.
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10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
[X] Plan Vanitati Latinae Canentes
[X] Plan Ethical Treatment of Sapients
Martial (3 Actions)
[ACTIVE] The Fortress Walls (4 Turns)
[X]Treasures of the Lost
[X] The Badlands
Diplomacy (3 Actions) +1 Action
[ACTIVE] Prothean Pilgrims (2 Turns)
[ACTIVE] The Pirate Queen (1 Turn)
[ACTIVE] The Covenant War Machine (4 Turns)
[ACTIVE] Legions of Metal (1 Turn)
Stewardship (3 Actions)
[X] Transient Paradise (6 Turns)
[X] Advancement Through Imperfection (1 Turn)
[X] The Halo (1 Turn)
Intrigue (3 Actions) +1 Action
[ACTIVE] The Hunt
[ACTIVE] Grand Theft Metacon
[X] The Unknown World (IX)
[X] The Beacons (Repeatable)
Piety (3 Actions) +1 Action
[X] Refuge in Audacity
[X] The Hounds of Hell
[X] Snakes On A Boat
[X] Blessings of Athame
Learning (2 Actions)
[X] Revised Indexing Protocols
[X] The Database
Shipbuilding
///Heaven
//5,500 Output
-[X] Ruin Killers (86)
-[X] Spiritruns (2)
///Delirium
//3,000 Output
-[X]Ruin Killers (50)
///East Mirror
//1,000 Output
-[X] Spiritruns (50)
IO Cost: 29635 / 29640
Research
[8d100] Shadow Frame 142/400
[9d100] Digidaptive Combat Systems 482/1,000
This is quite literally identical to the plan up above, only with the Playground removed because of all the reasons mentioned before.
[X] Plan Ethical Treatment of Sapients
Martial (3 Actions)
[ACTIVE] The Fortress Walls (4 Turns)
[X]Treasures of the Lost
[X] The Badlands
Diplomacy (3 Actions) +1 Action
[ACTIVE] Prothean Pilgrims (2 Turns)
[ACTIVE] The Pirate Queen (1 Turn)
[ACTIVE] The Covenant War Machine (4 Turns)
[ACTIVE] Legions of Metal (1 Turn)
Stewardship (3 Actions)
[X] Transient Paradise (6 Turns)
[X] Advancement Through Imperfection (1 Turn)
[X] The Halo (1 Turn)
Intrigue (3 Actions) +1 Action
[ACTIVE] The Hunt
[ACTIVE] Grand Theft Metacon
[X] The Unknown World (IX)
[X] The Beacons (Repeatable)
Piety (3 Actions) +1 Action
[X] Refuge in Audacity
[X] The Hounds of Hell
[X] Snakes On A Boat
[X] Blessings of Athame
Learning (2 Actions)
[X] Revised Indexing Protocols
[X] The Database
Shipbuilding
///Heaven
//5,500 Output
-[X] Ruin Killers (86)
-[X] Spiritruns (2)
///Delirium
//3,000 Output
-[X]Ruin Killers (50)
///East Mirror
//1,000 Output
-[X] Spiritruns (50)
IO Cost: 29635 / 29640
Research
[8d100] Shadow Frame 142/400
[9d100] Digidaptive Combat Systems 482/1,000
This is quite literally identical to the plan up above, only with the Playground removed because of all the reasons mentioned before.
- Location
- madison
Wait, hold up. She got in by showing up and asking, not like, her parents pulling strings? do we not vet people before sending them through a year-long hell meant to turn hardened spec opps troops into something more? That would be like letting anyone off the street sign up for seal training and assume it's fine, those not ready will just washout, and just hope no one crazy makes it through.
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- Location
- UK
Regarding this playground issue, we can't stop using it. It gives us THE most effective special forces bar none. BUT, it needs to be changed. Especially the recruitment and aftercare. People need to know exactly what they're signing up for and we can't create more spectre like individuals with little to no oversight either.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
We can stop using it easily. We don't need the most effective special forces. Like, there's no requirement that we have those guys, we can improvise and do other stuff.
Same reason that we don't pick any of the options that we haven't picked. We've avoided blowing up suns or mass relays, even though we can do both.
Tiypo
Forever Phone Posting
Do you really think that only a few hundred people signed up? Of course they get vetted, Liara was the exception of being ignorant, or more likely sceptical of what she thought were exaggerations. She spent time training to be a commando and probably figured it would be largely similar.
There was no ethical malpractice.
Icipall
Don't worry, we can fanfix that!
- Location
- Cold snow fields of Finland
So they're superpowered love children of Batman and Doom Guy, raised by that group of adventures that actually managed to beat Tomb of Horrors.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
There's obvious ethical malpractice. The only way you can excuse the non=presence of such malpractice is by suggesting that they were simply that incompetent.
As noted by the GM, not only did they fail to properly inform people of the actual risks, they actively misled people.
They literally advertise a psychological torture program as :
After that, they also failed to do even the most basic checking of their participants to see if they knew what was going on.
The only explanation here is either malicious action, or gross incompetence. Either is cause to shut down the program.
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[X] Plan Vanitati Latinae Canentes
- Location
- Reno Nv
So concurring that the playground makes super soldiers, what loyalty do we have ingraved into them so they don't go rouge and screw us over hard.
- Location
- UK
There's a lot of speculation going on but we don't know the exact details. We need OP to give us more information on the process, and what the other knights are actually doing. Then we can make an more informed decision to actively change this process or shut it down in worst case.
And we don't need to equip them, the covenant can do so for now. It should still be a lot better than citadel tech.
And we don't need to equip them, the covenant can do so for now. It should still be a lot better than citadel tech.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
There's no loyalty ingraving of any kind. They're not even required to be loyal to the Eventide or the Covenant. If anything, the only loyalty present goes the other way, with Covenant giving them stuff because they got blessed by the Gods.
I'd reason Liara's experience as something that sort of started off harsh but fair, but then went pear shaped towards the end as everyone dropped out. People got committed and Liara was doing very, very well, even if she was doing it solo. By the time people realized it was going overboard and causing trauma, it was too late to do anything but finish it and try to pick up the pieces.
The training she went through does need to be revised though. Individual super-soldiers are worthless if they're unable to function properly in society, or have trouble working in teams. One being is going to fail at some point. There should be a lot more emphasis on teamwork, effective power placement, and soldier stability.
Especially the last one. A person cracking and causing issues is something that benefits no one. What you need for the best supersoldiers are on-site commanders capable of directing a team to do the impossible, and keeping the team together. Not some lone commando that explodes the wrong target due to lack of subtly or tactical information.
The training she went through does need to be revised though. Individual super-soldiers are worthless if they're unable to function properly in society, or have trouble working in teams. One being is going to fail at some point. There should be a lot more emphasis on teamwork, effective power placement, and soldier stability.
Especially the last one. A person cracking and causing issues is something that benefits no one. What you need for the best supersoldiers are on-site commanders capable of directing a team to do the impossible, and keeping the team together. Not some lone commando that explodes the wrong target due to lack of subtly or tactical information.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
The trauma always happens. This is not unusual, this was not a failure. The GM has referred to the dropouts as PTSD chew toys on multiple occassions.
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- Location
- Anchorage, Alaska
Issue: they aren't just "our" super-special forces, they are the COVENANT's super-special forces. In fact, they're functionally more a part of the Covenant in terms of organization. Probably why we don't actually hear about what they're doing: that's Covenant business, and if we aren't looking for it, we don't see it.
3225 Eve is kinda scatterbrained like that.
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10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
The Convenant can make do as well. They're also not the Covenant's special forces, they're effectively free agents.
- Location
- madison
Yeah, it's also the sort of mistake I can see eve making. I could see eve assuming the covenant is doing the vetting, and the convent, however, sees it as a holy test so allows anyone to take it. But until now that was almost entirely people who knew what they were signing up for. Then the council races tried it and eve assumed the covenant had informed them. Somone like lira should never have been let in.
the playground is fine, so long as only informed professionals are going through it. Sure the experience is traumatic, but that's not really anything unusual for high-end special forces training.
This likely ties back into eve assuming the Covenant is handling screening. But a rule where you need to be either an agent of the Covenant, or the citadel, or pass some sort of intense psychological screening would be a good addition going forward.
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10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
Avoiding Trauma in training is actually something that a lot of research goes in, for the very simple reason that traumatized special force members are useless or even dangerous to their fellow members.
So, the playground, as a concept for a training facility is, from a realistic point of view, counterproductive. Though, as noted, here you run into the mechanical vs narrative issue that I described earlier, where the stats go up even if the narrative says the functioning goes down. In reality, psychological issues as inflicted by the Playground should lower stats, not increase them.
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Tiypo
Forever Phone Posting
If she properly showed that she had incomplete Asari Commando training, I see no reason why her application wouldn't go through. If were taking the best; those that halve been through the hellscape that is Earth, spec ops, and the like, then pushing them to make them the best of the best. Yes, Liara does have the qualifications.
There are tons of people who go to bootcamp right now, with grand visions of being the general of the Great American War Machine, and completely discount what they're told about it. This is just a bigger boot camp that takes those who are already commandos. They are already part of the war machine, they should know what to expect.
- Location
- [REDACTED]- United States of America
Recent posts suggest otherwise, the fact that they all reenlisted into covenant special forces is simply because the people most likely to sign up and pass are also originally from the covenant's military. They are technically free actors unless they choose otherwise, one that the Eventide happens to have much sway with, considering the quasi-religious experience that some have in the playground.
I missed that.
Then put simply the thing needs to be shut down. It's worthless even with the supersoldiers. Unstable wrecks are actively detrimental to society at large.
Actually, I'd argue that the supersoldiers make it worse. The only reason some people fight and don't go off the deep end is because they make friends, allies, and companions. Without those as sources of stability they become dangerous to themselves and others, or just flat out kill themselves.
-edit-
Proper training, even elite training tries to avoid damage the soldiers. PTSD should be something to actively avoid and should never even be considered a bonus. It should be in fact considered almost killing the soldier.
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- Location
- [REDACTED]- United States of America
We actually have, we've seen them fighting on Terra Terminus in one of the previous updates and surviving the newest wave of automated kill-bots on the terminus itself, the third generation maximum response ones and blowing up a bot production facility even as the some of Terra's finest kill-bots are trying to kill them.
Edit: which is saying something considering those bipedal kill bots apparently casually rolled back any attempt to do so by conventional means.
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