In Which Jacobplm Points Out That Squishy Stickying his own quest thread is a abuse of power

[mothematics]

Quite honestly the past hour has shown enough bratty behavior, kneejerked reactions, pedantry and quite simply intelectual dishonesty from users both Staff and not that any real arguments that could be made -and made better than @jacobplm did- are a bit choked at this point.

This is a bit abnormal, but I'm going to ask @Ford Prefect or someone with permision to lock this thread for 24 hours, until people, should they feel like it's worth their time, step back into the metaphorical pigshit since I don't think anything good is going to come from things as is.

 

[Simulium Novitius]

Quite honestly the past hour has shown enough bratty behavior, kneejerked reactions, pedantry and quite simply intelectual dishonesty from users both Staff and not that any real arguments that could be made -and made better than @jacobplm did- are a bit choked at this point.

This is a bit abnormal, but I'm going to ask @Ford Prefect or someone with permision to lock this thread for 24 hours, until people, should they feel like it's worth their time, step back into the metaphorical pigshit since I don't think anything good is going to come from things as is.

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I support this move.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Technically speaking I am not allowed to lock this thread, because I have been involved with the argument. But I'm going to do it anyway because it's sort of ironic in context!

 

[Strypgia]

.....Actually it was Stryp who gave those tags.

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If you think that's Squishy instead of all the other mods taking the piss, I have a shiny almost-new bridge to sell you.

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I removed the originals, but I did not add the last two.

Skyllian Blitz, you owe Jacobplm a shiny new bridge.

EDIT: And Mister Bad Guy, too, it seems.

 

[Ford Prefect]

So I'm going to unlock the thread in about half an hour (this is also ironic given the topic, but indulge me). Before I do, I just want to say some things in the hopes of keeping this discussion civil.

Straight up, I'd just like to say that everyone on the staff is human (except @Admiral Skippy, who is a golden retriever). I'd like everyone to keep that in mind when it comes to stickying threads, which is essentially done purely on individual discretion.

I understand why people might be upset. I believe there is a valid reason that is exacerbated - I think unfairly - by who did it. Being on the front page in a cut-throat forum like Quests is one of the basic forms of 'success.' Getting dropped off the front page usually means that traffic to your thread slows considerably. A stickied thread is of course always on the front page. Staff can of course sticky any thread they like, in theory including their own. That is, on its face, unfair.

Particularly, I think that people are very oversensitive to Lord Squishy doing ... almost anything, really. In part this is because he is quite rude to people when they question him over things that he has considered at length and decided isn't really a problem. It's happened more than a few times, and while I can understand the frustration users have, in general it's rarely the case that I feel that my brother director has been substantially incorrect or in the wrong.

In any case, you combine these two things and people lose their minds. And when the matter is something that some of us consider incredibly minor we can respond in a pretty harsh way. Personally I was so baffled that anyone cared that I responded in kind, and was quite mean as a result. I apologise for that.

However, I still stand by my belief that this matter is just that: incredibly minor. In the normal case I do not believe it is appropriate for staff to sticky their own threads, except with good reason. At the same time I think it's probably a little bit ridiculous to expect the staff to act like machines. Is it really a big deal that Lord Squishy's thread is on the front page for a period? Who's it actually hurting? What's the actual deleterious effect? Yeah, it's 'unfair,' but given the amount of work put in by the staff (and specifically in Squishy's case, money) I think we can be allowed a little bit of excess where it doesn't interfere with users or the operation of the board. Like ... to be totally straight with you all, we own it. Surely we can play around a little?

At the end of the day, we do our utmost to be fair to users and act according to established procedures when it comes to handing out infractions or warnings. Our systems work to ensure that staff are held accountable in regards to serious matters. Honestly, what's the very occasional stickied thread between friends?

Now please, keep it civil.

 

[Shanejayell]

Having read the thread I have come to two conclusions:

I agree that it was... at least a dubious decision of Lord Squishy to sticky his own thread.

And I think the mod staff were pretty much asses in addressing this.

 

[sebsmith]

I'd just like to say that everyone on the staff is human (except @Admiral Skippy, who is a golden retriever).

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Weird, I had thought that @Aleph was a sentient cloud of knives and @Swordomatic was a sword? Also, @stormbringer951 is apparently an Industrial Age Machine.

You might want to double check this.

Now onto a more serious discussion.

I think people are coming at this from a slippery slope argument. Namely, if Fourteen Days is worth sticking, then why shouldn't your Hostis Humani Generis - PiracyQuest or @EarthScorpion's Beyond the Fields We Know be as well? If these are appropriate, why shouldn't @Tempera's First Impressions be added? While one more thread at the top isn't a big deal, surely there is a point where it starts to have a noticeable effect?

While I'm leery of such arguments in general, I don't have a good answer to the above. It also probably didn't help that people took what @LordSquishy said just a few hours earlier to be insulting nearly all quests.

 

[Ford Prefect]

The quest having a defined end point (14 updates) and an experiment in a new theory for quests generally makes it somewhat different in principle to my own HHG or Tempera's First Impressions. I think at least part of this could probably be attributed to the fact that both Tempera and I spent an hour telling Squish that his idea was almost certainly going to end in abject failure, haha.

 

[Eliwan]

* I am using terms from a specific subjective viewpoint until there is another asterisk. It may or may not be my own.

No it doesn't. It literally doesn't. Stickied threads have nothing to do with how many regular threads are displayed. lrn2XenForo n00b

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While it does not impact the number of not-stickied threads, and therefore does not really reduce their visibility, what it does is unfairly promote the stickied thread given that it is an actual quest as opposed to (like the other stickied threads) a topic to inform quest writers/players of quests, get opinions on quests, help construct quests-- which (in this perspective, believed that this) is the purpose of stickying a thread, to show rules and topics of import, things that people want to have as part of the subforum's running--
If there was not a stickied 'quest ideas thread', then many people would not share their snippets and find out if people are interested in a certain quest. If the Quest Orphanage was not stickied, people wouldn't have as much awareness about the abandoned quests that players may want continued. *

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I personally think that Squishy stickying the thread is fine--It's their forum in part. I do not think that the way this thread (especially given all those 'so very mature' tags, as I believe Moid put it) was handled to be fine and in fact quite the opposite.

But I came after it all started to boil down, so I don't have a full pad of notes on the subject-- so I suppose my view on the seemingly-poorly-handled thread that I mostly know about this poor-handling from the people that would be inclined to call it poorly-handled is very ignorable.

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I understand why people might be upset. I believe there is a valid reason that is exacerbated - I think unfairly - by who did it. Being on the front page in a cut-throat forum like Quests is one of the basic forms of 'success.' Getting dropped off the front page usually means that traffic to your thread slows considerably. A stickied thread is of course always on the front page. Staff can of course sticky any thread they like, in theory including their own. That is, on its face, unfair.

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I think that the problem does not stem from Lord Squishy having done it, but rather that it was a Quest, as opposed to a query, being stickied.

If it was "hey guys I want to run a 14-update-only-quest" that was stickied, I reaaally think that would have been fine and just blown over. And if it wasn't then I question what kind of people don't have the patience to spare a few seconds on one of the people that own the board.

The fact that it is a quest, however, means that it feels like the person is not complying to their own rules-- or at least, the mentality of the subforum, that people HAVE to have a good idea to keep it anchored to the top; but in this case it is simply anchored to the top because it is. Other quests have to offer lots of consistent and good material in order to stay at the top, but this one does not.

I personally feel that no person should be above any rule even if it iss an implicit one or a mentality-based 'this is how things work' instead of an actual set-in-stone rule.

I can't coherently think anymore so I'm just going to shuffle away instead of writing myself into a whole 'nother set of holes.

edit:

While I'm leery of such arguments in general, I don't have a good answer to the above. It also probably didn't help that people took what @@LordSquishy said just a few hours earlier to be insulting nearly all quests.

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Lots of this.
I think that it comes from how LordSquishy, who /seemed to me/ to not fully grok the environment established in Quests, suddenly appeared as a sticky was... what's the phrase, rustling a lot of jimmies?

 

[Squishy]

The fact that it is a quest, however, means that it feels like the person is not complying to their own rules-- or at least, the mentality of the subforum

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This is I suppose the thing that amuses me the most. There's no rule saying staff can't sticky threads- quite the opposite. Staff have always been entitled to sticky threads.

This is very literally a bunch of people complaining because I did something that violated a rule they would like to exist, not one that does exist.

I'm not sympathetic to this argument. One of the reasons I started the SV experiment as @Ford Prefect can attest was because I wanted to experiment with things and promote content that I thought was worthy of it. This is an excellent example. Maybe its not a project that will ultimately accomplish what I wanted to accomplish, but its at least making the effort to push the envelope and that is worth promoting.

If this is how people are going to respond now, they might want to buckle up, because they are not going to be happy when we start curating stories and quests and highlighting the ones we consider exceptional specimens.

 

[Ford Prefect]

From the first page:

No. I think it's a relatively short, sufficiently innovative experiment to warrant one. Luckily for me, I also get to judge if that's true.

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To be quite honest I think this is sufficient justification, beyond anything else.

 

[Iron Wolf]

This is very literally a bunch of people complaining because I did something that violated a rule they would like to exist, not one that does exist.

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As can be possibly expected, people on SV confused a norm or convention with a rule. As a political scholar yourself, you should be more than aware there are reasons such conventions exist, and why people get upset when you break them. And just because there is nothing stopping you from breaking them doesn't mean you should.

If this is how people are going to respond now, they might want to buckle up, because they are not going to be happy when we start curating stories and quests and highlighting the ones we consider exceptional specimens.

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There is a wide gulf between "here are the stories SV considers exceptional, we are now stickying them" and "Hello, I am Lord Squishy. Please don't let my experimental quest end in abject failure. To help this happen, I will sticky it."

It's like, the height of arrogance to assume your personal experiment is worth curating beyond "well, I own it." If you're going to try to keep your experiment afloat, get those magical five friends MJ12 was talking about to bump you like everyone else does.

Like ... to be totally straight with you all, we own it. Surely we can play around a little?

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You can, but it doesn't mean you should. I know the term "sets a precedent" gets thrown around a lot, but I am really not comfortable with the idea that admins can now declare their works worth of sticky and put it at the top of the list, whether its artwork, written fiction, or quests. It just seems antithetical to basic merit, you know? I was rather under the impression the Admins would try to operate on the same level as us while ensuring the space remains safe and open to discourse and creativity. I was not aware that we now are operating on the assumption you can unilaterally declare your stuff "worthy" and throw it in a privileged position.

However, I guess the relevant question to ask at this point is, 1) Has the Staff come to a policy decision on this? and if not 2) Is what we're saying in this thread having any sort of impact on it?

Because otherwise I don't really see the point in keeping this thread open.

 

[Ford Prefect]

I don't see us making a habit of it. Just because it happened once doesn't mean that the floodgates are opened.

 

[Star Anise]

From the first page:



To be quite honest I think this is sufficient justification, beyond anything else.

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You got here before me. Jacobplm's first post and that response quoted by Ford were the ideal question and answer on this topic and summarised the start and end of my reaction when I heard that something new was up in Quest. A lot of the rest of the posting from staff and ordinary members alike has been unfortunate and led to a minor issue about a staff member being maybe a bit rude detonating absurdly.

e: unfortunately I was asleep during the thread title affair. I agree with Foamy's views on this issue.

 

[foamy]

T'be blunt, I think this entire affair, starting from Squishy's decision to sticky his thread, has been handled poorly. The probable reaction of people to it was entirely foreseeable, and the staff reaction to that was unhelpful. Similar events occurred on Spacebattles over the years and they were generally poorly received there, too, for much the same reasons.

Ultimately I don't think anyone is seriously advancing the argument that the staff have the don't authority to sticky anything; I read those particular posts as a gibe against poor wording in the Community Compact. Nor is Squishy sticking a thread abusive, which is a strong and rather loaded term.

For that matter, the Tsundre Sharks thread, for example, didn't cause this sort of tempest.

What makes this incident specifically get up people's noses is that it's an appearance of favouritism. Favouritism can be incredibly toxic and it's something that makes people resent the person receiving it. When that person is a staff member, it contributes to a perception of the staff as self-serving, and that's also something people are alert to. Particularly here on SV, given our history on SB and some of the shenanigans that went down in Creative Writing and Quests over there.

I would like to extend to jacob my apologies for, in particular, the title and tags which this thread was originally created with. It was unprofessional and beneath the staff.

 

[Squishy]

As can be possibly expected, people on SV confused a norm or convention with a rule. As a political scholar yourself, you should be more than aware there are reasons such conventions exist, and why people get upset when you break them. And just because there is nothing stopping you from breaking them doesn't mean you should.

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We have made it pretty clear, I think, that people can't just import their norms or conventions elsewhere and have us uphold them because they want us to. I don't see this as being any different.

There is a wide gulf between "here are the stories SV considers exceptional, we are now stickying them" and "Hello, I am Lord Squishy. Please don't let my experimental quest end in abject failure. To help this happen, I will sticky it."

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Not stories SV considers exceptional. Stories that I (or we, as in staff) consider exceptional. That's the point of curation. It's not a popularity contest.

You can, but it doesn't mean you should. I know the term "sets a precedent" gets thrown around a lot, but I am really not comfortable with the idea that admins can now declare their works worth of sticky and put it at the top of the list, whether its artwork, written fiction, or quests. It just seems antithetical to basic merit, you know? I was rather under the impression the Admins would try to operate on the same level as us while ensuring the space remains safe and open to discourse and creativity. I was not aware that we now are operating on the assumption you can unilaterally declare your stuff "worthy" and throw it in a privileged position.

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Here's the thing: who decides what constitutes 'sufficient merit'?

A lot of people here seem to be under the impression that it's mostly a matter of popularity. Good ideas will somehow rise to the top and bad ideas fail through the actions of SV's Invisible Pimp Hand.

The thing is, anyone who's known me for more than six minutes knows that I think this position is intellectually bankrupt. The idea of the free market of ideas is, and always will be, a failure. I see no reason to implement policies here that I know are going to fail. That means that some ideas are going to be suppressed and some elevated. Ideas that I consider meritorious will be promoted, and ideas that I consider unmeritorious will not be promoted or will be banned.

That's...pretty much life.

 

[Iron Wolf]

We have made it pretty clear, I think, that people can't just import their norms or conventions elsewhere and have us uphold them because they want us to. I don't see this as being any different.

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This forum has been in operation for how long? Almost a year now? Never before has an admin stickied unilaterally their own quest or fiction. That's not an SB norm we've imported, that's an SV norm. In fact, it was more common to see on SB that staff stickied their own threads (I know because I participated in one.)

The thing is, anyone who's known me for more than six minutes knows that I think this position is intellectually bankrupt. The idea of the free market of ideas is, and always will be, a failure.

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No one is saying your quest is without merit, or that quests become popular completely based on the originality and worthiness of their concepts. However, the fact you are attempting to completely bypass this chaotic maelstrom is unfair and I don't think a really good reflection on the administration.

I see no reason to implement policies here that I know are going to fail. That means that some ideas are going to be suppressed and some elevated. Ideas that I consider meritorious will be promoted,

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So basically, your own? Man I knew you were an elitist but this is going into overdrive.

 

[Squishy]

This forum has been in operation for how long? Almost a year now? Never before has an admin stickied unilaterally their own quest or fiction. That's not an SB norm we've imported, that's an SV norm. In fact, it was more common to see on SB that staff stickied their own threads (I know because I participated in one.)

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It's never come up before, to my knowledge. I've stickied about a dozen of my threads, but that's certainly nowhere near a significant proportion of the total number.

If you want, I can go through and sticky more staff quests or fiction.

However, the fact you are attempting to completely bypass this chaotic maelstrom is unfair

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Unfair in what sense?

So basically, your own? Man I knew you were an elitist but this is going into overdrive.

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No, I just happened to be doing this one thing at this one time...?

 

[Ford Prefect]

I kind of feel I have to reiterate this one thing at this one time. I've said this a few times over the past few months, but this is a webforum. Sometimes we're going to play around, sometimes we're going to take things really seriously. Taking stickying threads too seriously strikes me as a bad place to be in.

 

[Iron Wolf]

Unfair in what sense?

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Are you being obtuse? Or you you prefer I use the term asymmetrical or something?

I think I pretty clearly covered my reasoning as to why in my previous posts. As foamy said it's self-serving, but mostly it's because your thread is at the top of the list, making it very visible, and is not subject to getting buried under fresh turf, as it were. You did this by using your admin powers, something the average user does not have access to. That's... pretty clearly unfair, unless you think that if I wanted to start a Quest I could somehow manage to get those same advantages?

No, I just happened to be doing this one thing at this one time...?

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People have clearly expressed dissatisfaction with this course of action and probably will again in the future if you try to pull something like this again. Why not put this whole mess behind us by just... unstickying the thread?

I kind of feel I have to reiterate this one thing at this one time. I've said this a few times over the past few months, but this is a webforum. Sometimes we're going to play around, sometimes we're going to take things really seriously. Taking stickying threads too seriously strikes me as a bad place to be in.

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This is probably about what you can expect from a forum that deliberately enshrines debate as one of its major cornerstones, Ford. People also debate on what relationships they want their fictional characters to have. That baffles me to no end but I don't think "but it's completely trivial" is a fair rebuttal to anything they say, unless they're launching full on flamewars but that's where you guys come in with the infractions.

 

[Squishy]

Are you being obtuse? Or you you prefer I use the term asymmetrical or something?

I think I pretty clearly covered my reasoning as to why in my previous posts. As foamy said it's self-serving, but mostly it's because your thread is at the top of the list, making it very visible, and is not subject to getting buried under fresh turf, as it were. You did this by using your admin powers, something the average user does not have access to. That's... pretty clearly unfair, unless you think that if I wanted to start a Quest I could somehow manage to get those same advantages?

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I dunno, it seems fair to me. If you can convince an admin to sticky your thread, you can have it stickied. If I can convince an admin to sticky my thread, I can have it stickied!

People have clearly expressed dissatisfaction with this course of action and probably will again in the future if you try to pull something like this again. Why not put this whole mess behind us by just... unstickying the thread?

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Because that would mean giving in to forum terrorism. You don't want me to bow to terrorism, do you?

 

[foamy]

I dunno, it seems fair to me. If you can convince an admin to sticky your thread, you can have it stickied. If I can convince an admin to sticky my thread, I can have it stickied!

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What makes this incident specifically get up people's noses is that it's an appearance of favouritism. Favouritism can be incredibly toxic and it's something that makes people resent the person receiving it. When that person is a staff member, it contributes to a perception of the staff as self-serving, and that's also something people are alert to.

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Taking stickying threads too seriously strikes me as a bad place to be in.

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Because that would mean giving in to forum terrorism.

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[Iron Wolf]

I dunno, it seems fair to me. If you can convince an admin to sticky your thread, you can have it stickied. If I can convince an admin to sticky my thread, I can have it stickied!

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And when has any admin stickied a user's fiction. And while you clearly "ran it by" Tempura and Ford, I have no doubt the only admin you convinced was yourself. And if not, as Foamy said, that's favoritism.

Because that would mean giving in to forum terrorism. You don't want me to bow to terrorism, do you?

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I love you included this. Ford asks everyone to keep it civil, but you dig up stuff from an unrelated argument to try and provoke me. This is what you're using to try and justify your position?

 

[Squishy]

And when has any admin stickied a user's fiction.

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As I say, it's never come up. So...? Are you saying nothing can happen for the first time?

I love you included this. Ford asks everyone to keep it civil, but you dig up stuff from an unrelated argument to try and provoke me. This is what you're using to try and justify your position?

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"dig up stuff from an unrelated argument"...?

 

[Star Anise]

The thing is, anyone who's known me for more than six minutes knows that I think this position is intellectually bankrupt. The idea of the free market of ideas is, and always will be, a failure. I see no reason to implement policies here that I know are going to fail. That means that some ideas are going to be suppressed and some elevated. Ideas that I consider meritorious will be promoted, and ideas that I consider unmeritorious will not be promoted or will be banned.

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Sometimes it's like you sit down and say 'what is the worst possible way I can frame this'.

Allow me to try to translate:
An example of an idea unmeritorious enough to be banned is 'white supremacy' or 'killing everyone in the middle east' and so on. This is established policy which I don't think people have much problem with once you extract it from squishyese.

The idea of promoting certain things is pretty embryonic. One example of a thing we are thinking of encouraging is big effortposts where a poster explains and explores Topic X in a few thousand words in the debate forums. The sort of thing which is really beneficial to a forum but which doesn't always rise in the churn, or get enough response to feel like it has justified the effort.

It's important to remember that sticky threads and the like coexist, don't compete, with the normal thread list. The basic forum mechanisms already promote popular threads by bumping them to the top - they don't need any help! But the forum would be more interesting and could develop its posting if there was more going on than just a pure chaos.

Squishy is blithe about the prospect of a degeneracy into favouritism because he's incapable of communicating but the staff is well aware of the possibility and it's central to the (scattered) discussions there have been on the topic. And I was brought into this position so that I could scrutinise things in this way.