I thought it was intentional - "in this universe, the last book has a different title"Shockz said:
You know I'm right here, right?Mysterius said:
Is it still a ficional document if the book hasn't been released yet?
In Memoriam (A Certain Magical Index/Scientific Railgun AU)
- Thread starter Shockz
- Start date
Is it still a ficional document if the book hasn't been released yet?
Shockz
You might see it coming...but it'll be too late.
- Location
- At least a mile high
- Pronouns
- no
herpaderp said:
Criticism is always appreciated. Could you expand on that? Like, what exactly do you find annoying about his narration, both in canon and in my story?herpaderp said:
Again, criticism appreciated, more detail required. What's wrong with him taking self-defense classes?I'm also not sure about Touma's 8 year martial arts training. Was it necessary?
I will confirm that Touma's right hand does not contain the Invisible Dragon of Plothax.I just hope he doesn't get precognition or have an invisible monster pop out when his arm's sliced off.
Perhaps you're looking for "droll"? Or dry wit? Personally, I thought Touma's narration in this fic came across pretty well.herpaderp said:
As for his luck, I wasn't a fan of Touma's comically-contrived mishaps in canon, but are you objecting to what has actually happened in this fic, or just the word "luck" itself? Because so far we've yet to see this Touma fall victim to spontaneous flamboyant accidents; rather, his complaints befit his circumstances.
If Touma is to stay relevant, after losing a good deal of plothax and the rest of the series getting a dose of realism, then he needs to have appreciable skills. If he's still getting into scuffles, then it only makes sense for him to train to defend himself.
Overall, I think it's good that Touma and Misaka are still recognizably themselves, even after modifications and improvements versus canon. If absolutely every character was overhauled to the extent that Index was, you might as well write an original work.
(To put it in other words, I think we need to keep something of his voice and character intact, or are you looking for Touma-in-name-only?)
Oh, I don't know; an analysis-fu English girl landing on his balcony was pretty flamboyant and accidental.Mysterius said:
I really can't agree with that. Touma's narration was one of the parts I liked best.herpaderp said:
Though come to think of it, there is one thing you may want to expand on with Touma's character, Shockz, and that's establish a reason for Touma's heroics. Sure, he likes to help people, but why? That's something that never really got explained in canon, and it would add more depth to him. A little insight into what makes him who he is would be much appreciated.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Some people just like to help people if they can.spacemonkey37 said:
Sure, but not normally to the point of putting their own lives at risk. I'm not saying there has to be some big tragedy in his past or anything, just that it would be interesting to get a little introspection from Touma on his own motivations.Aranfan said:
Thank you. You guys see this ^^^, 'cause that's the truth, people don't need some sort of super-memorable-event to happen to them in order for them to help others.Aranfan said:
I'm really not into the whole special-background idea, but the "guy with bad luck who ends up going through more than is realistic for a single relatively normal civilian" thing, even though it's not exactly original is in fact appealing to me.
PS: Personaly, I love what you did with Touma
EDIT: ninja'd
- Location
- Third planet from the star named Sol
- Pronouns
- He/They
Presentation is everything.
I'm sure the author had a legitimate reason for liking Touma, if he actually did that is, he just presented the guy poorly.
I'm sure the author had a legitimate reason for liking Touma, if he actually did that is, he just presented the guy poorly.
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
Don't worry. He'll lose his memory before we ever find out what's anything real about his past, exiling the truth to the abyss forever.spacemonkey37 said:
*Runs away before Shockz hunts him down.*
Shockz
You might see it coming...but it'll be too late.
- Location
- At least a mile high
- Pronouns
- no
herpaderp said:
I am actually not very fond of canon Touma and was very intentionally trying to write this Touma as similar-but-noticeably-different from pre-wipe canon Touma, and very different from post-wipe canon Touma. If I have failed in that task (besides him bemoaning his luck, which I can tone down if it's excessive but won't remove outright because of reasons), I need to know right now so I can reevaluate how I write his POV and where I'm taking his character arc.NotAlwaysFanfic said:
I'm also intentionally trying not to write him as totally likable. Dude has some issues.
- Location
- Third planet from the star named Sol
- Pronouns
- He/They
nonono, your Touma is good. I was talking about the LN author's presentation.Shockz said:
In my defense, I was trying to think of something to say about canon, power level, "plot", and this fanfic. It's just that I'm still a little bit in shocked after finding out about that, so I wasn't able to come up with something of substance right away. Should I remove that post then, and maybe try again later (or not)?
- Location
- Estonia
herpaderp said:
It's not about how far you are willing to go to help other people, it's your thought process behind that, your motives and risk assessments and whether you rely on plans or deus ex machina.herpaderp said:
One of the reason many people hate your average manga/anime fighting heroes is that they are 1) borderline retarded and 2) not actually brave.
Because bravery is not lack of fear, but overcoming fear to reach your goals. So, if you face impossible odds and don't actually even acknowledge the almost certain possibility of defeat and the consequences of that, but just jump in without a good plan and only win cause of mid-season upgrade (with exceptions in a TTGL-like verses where it is actually the correct thing to do and counts as a actually good plan), then you are not brave (because you are too stupid to feel fear) and an idiot and more intelligent readers tend to dislike seeing such characters to win again and again without exploring the realistic consequences of such behavior.
Wanting to help people, even up to the point of basically becoming almost like a martyr is a choice, like any other, it's not inherently stupid if the character doing it acknowledges the risks, actually feels and has to overcome fear, makes effort to actually plan, is not making needless sacrifices and if the consequences are fully explored. It really makes all the difference.
Shockz
You might see it coming...but it'll be too late.
- Location
- At least a mile high
- Pronouns
- no
Indeed. And I'd say that my chief problem with Canon!Touma is that not that he has this character trait, but that he rarely has to deal with the consequences of it. Oh sure, he gets the snot beat out of him on a regular basis, but the situation always ends up resolved in the end, whether or not he actually helped (god dammit Daihaseisai arc), Heaven Canceller fixes him up good as new (because the protagonist armor prevents him from ever actually getting killed, even in situations where he really should have been), and there's rarely more than a token suggestion that maybe he might end up making things worse by rushing in in the future. And thus, in the end, "rush in and PUNCH" is proven to be, if not always the right plan, at least not a totally wrong one. Now, granted, I've only seen up to the end of the second season of the anime, and I'm still trying to get through the novels, so maybe this changes at some point. But even so, seeing it over and over again up to this point is frustrating as hell.allfictions said:
I think that's the theme for the 3rd volume of TAMNI: NTShockz said:
not to spoil anything, but one of the themes of the "new testament" novels 2 to 4 is now that people are taking him seriously "punching the problem" is not working as well anymore, because now people know how he will react, what he can do and why he does it, and so can now counter him ( or manipulate him)Shockz said:
ninja'd
- Location
- Estonia
Not really, it's not about saving itself, it's about how you do it. If an intelligent character with personality asks "why not", then he would still go over a check list about why exactly, indeed not, and make a plan if he still decides to go thorough with it, either finding no reasons not to help or deciding to go through even if there are ones. There's a big difference between being too stupid to see the risks and making a moral decision to just accept them.allfictions said:
It's quite possible an altruistic and heroic character has already answered himself why he wants to save people in general and needing a specific reason why not to in each case he believes there's some saving to be done. After all, if you truly believe saving people is the right thing to do, then it's not that strange that you would need a good reason why not to do a right thing, wouldn't you, if you look at it from that perspective?
That seems a little limiting perspective to me, choosing to not save someone might also have negative consequences in the future (by that person not being at the right place at the right time when needed), saving people doesn't inherently have to be a short-term solution and there's no reason you couldn't plan for long term while doing it
Of course, like Shockz said, the most important part is exploring the consequences of such behavior. Which don't even necessarily need to be all negative. After all, you might take great risks, but you also gather experience and quite a lot of favours and gratidude (when you save people in a city full of espers and magicians, quite a lot of them might not be that "helpless" at all and might be in a position to return the favour or help in the future, if they don't get forgotten by the narrative).
Lexica
Persevere
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Just for the record, I quite like your version of Touma.Shockz said:
- Location
- Estonia
According to the level of self-interest commonly accepted as sensible, yes, but not rationality. Rationality is merely a tool of methods and finding knowledge, no axiom goal can be irrational, it all ultimately comes down to "I choose to". A martyr can be exactly as rational as an egotist, given the right circumstances and priorities of values.Nameless_Flame said:
Like how Index values freedom over comfort. Which one should be objectively more "rational" for her? A stereotypical cynic might say comfort, but what if freedom actually made her empirically more happy? What axis of reason are we even judging it by in the first place? Safety? Happiness? Greater utilitarian good?
Same for Touma and the rationality of the "saving people thing" to him.
Could be, or he might just as well simply have a very strong natural inclination towards altruism, as pointed out earlier in the thread. It's like why people choose to become firefighters or the like, if you ask them when they had the great epiphany, I bet most of them can't really trace it down to one dramatic moment, only that it just felt like how they wanted to live.
- Location
- Estonia
What exactly are you trying to point out here? Because there are always exceptions, the same way there was in the Milgramm's "obey authority to hurt others" experiment.The One Char said:
And those exceptions are usually just the heroic protagonist material.
You do realize that Touma is just inner monologuing most of his lines in this fic so far, on the words that actually come out of his mouth, it's more or less the normal amount to hold conversation without going infodumping for the sake of infodumping.Patcheresu said: